TRADE THREAD III ~July 9 - July 15

[SoxFan1]

We need to see at least 1 more Count performance to really decide. IMO, a major blockbuster trade isn't needed. I am really regretting not getting in that Day/Wilson trade now. I don't think Burnett/Lowell for Crede/Count/Marte is a good move. It is too big of a deal and like Tony said, I fear it will completely f*** up the chemistry. A middle of the rotation reliever would have been good enough. I am still for getting Schmidt or Burnett as long as the deal is not toooooo big.

[Wedge]

It's weird seeing a lot of people flop around about which pitcher to get based on one or two performances. The Burnett talk seemed to cool off after today's outing, but not Schmidt has a pretty good outing and we want him again.

 

Stick to your guns, don't let one outing dictate your opinion: use facts, reason, and logic to do that.

[Steve9347]

It's weird seeing a lot of people flop around about which pitcher to get based on one or two performances.  The Burnett talk seemed to cool off after today's outing, but not Schmidt has a pretty good outing and we want him again.

 

Stick to your guns, don't let one outing dictate your opinion: use facts, reason, and logic to do that.

 

Well, Schmidt is the man to get if you are strictly talking post-season... Burnett is this year and the future...

 

we'll be lucky to get either one of them, hoewver.

[Gene Honda Civic]

The price is about to go up folks....

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/basebal...-sports-marlins

 

Burnett's availability will continue tantalizing contenders who can afford the asking price. Among the teams with high-level scouts at Thursday's game: the Red Sox (special assistant to the General Manager Bill Lajoie), Rangers (Director of Player Personnel Dom Chiti), and Twins (assistant GM Wayne Krivsky).

 

[...]

 

Any deal with the Red Sox likely would send Bronson Arroyo to South Florida, and indications are they wouldn't insist on a 72-hour negotiating window to hammer out an extension. The Twins, who may also be willing to take Mike Lowell assuming the Marlins provide financial relief, would part with right-hander Kyle Lohse.

 

One undeveloped yet intriguing scenario to the Marlins: bringing back Carl Pavano for Burnett and Al Leiter, who they designated for assignment Thursday.

[Dam8610]

I forget where I read it [maybe from Bob Nightengale of Sports Weekly] he said Beane was listening to offers for Zito despite his public stance. If the price were similar for Zito as it would be for Burnett, I'd rather have Zito: Cheaper next yr, not the injury concerns, better acquainted with the AL.

 

You're kidding right? Beware of the guy that has good outings against your team. Seattle gave Boston Derek Lowe on a deal where they acquired a guy that did well against them and he was so bad I can't remember what his name was now. Zito did well 2x against us, but aside from that, what has he done in the past year and a half? Nothing of very much merit.

 

Burnett > Contreras but is Lowell > Crede + Marte????

 

Actually, it'd be more like is Burnett > Count + Marte and is Lowell > Crede? Right now, I'm not sure if I'd say yes to either. I do, however, like the idea of getting a 3rd team involved and getting the SP they want.

 

Contreras pitches 7 shutout innings against a division rival.

 

Burnett gives up 6 runs on 6 hits (3 HRs) and 4 walks, with 3 Ks in 5 innings against a division rival.  86 pitches, only 47 strikes.  Marlins give him a 3-0 lead in the top of the 2nd, and it doesn't even last a half inning. 

 

I hope we steer clear of Burnett at this point.  I don't watch Marlins games, but he seems just as much of a head case that can't control his great "stuff" as Jose. 

 

Burnett has had only had 1 outing this year when he gave up less than 2 runs.   After tonight, Contreras has had 6.  Yes, 6.

 

I disagree with your assessment of him, and that less than 2 runs in an outing stat just tells me that Burnett is more consistent than Count, considering Burnett has a lower ERA. That lineup BA/OBP thing that Juggernaut did also convinces me that Burnett could put up similar numbers in the AL.

 

If I was KW I would  trade the Count,Crede, B Mac and a lower prospect to Toronto for Gustavo Chacin, Shane Hillebrand& Miquel Batista

 

That makes about 0 sense. We lose one of our SPs, our top prospect, a damn good defensive 3B (who might just finally find a way to hit in the .260-.275 range), and another prospect for a closer, a young talented SP, and a 1B who has been moved to third part time this year. It doesn't even make sense for Toronto, because they lose 3 pieces that have helped them a lot thus far this season and they're trying to compete this year or next year. It just makes no sense for either side, and it won't happen.

 

Jason Schmidt's night:

 

6 innings, 4 hits, 4 BBs, 7 Ks, 1 run, left for pinch hitter in 7th in 1-1 tie at Dodger Stadium. 

 

He's still the right move for the Sox.  Now that Contreras has found his form in back to back games, I wouldn't give much more than Contreras-Uribe for Schmidt-Vizquel, but it's still the best deal that has been discussed over the last two weeks.  One A list prospect like Anderson and a B list prospect should be enough.  And I'm not in a hurry to make this deal.  July 31 would be fine.

 

I disagree entirely with your assessment of Schmidt and the Giants demands. He's an aging fireballer who can't get his fastball up there like he used to and has never been a pitcher who could spot his pitches. So, as the velocity goes down for Schmidt, so does the productivity. Also, Sabean wants to compete next year (he still has delusions of Bonds' roid ravaged knee getting healthy enough for him to last a full season), so there's no way he's taking prospects for his staff ace, even if his staff ace is only half of what he used to be.

 

It's weird seeing a lot of people flop around about which pitcher to get based on one or two performances.  The Burnett talk seemed to cool off after today's outing, but not Schmidt has a pretty good outing and we want him again.

 

Stick to your guns, don't let one outing dictate your opinion: use facts, reason, and logic to do that.

 

Exactly. I still think we should get Burnett, and the more info I get on him, the more I think we should find a way. He's consistent, and he's able to get the meat of the lineups he faces out. Get a 3rd team involved, send some mid level specs for a decent young SP, and send that guy as part of a package (the other part being most likely Marte, even though I'd hate to break up the Fab 4 of the Sox pen) to the Marlins for Burnett. The only problem that presents is that we'd then have to send top level prospects out to find another solid reliever to take Marte's place (like a Guadardo or maybe a Wagner).

Edited July 15, 2005 by Dam8610

[DBAHO]

Take away Zito's horrible start to the year in April, he would have an ERA below 3. His K's have also significantly increased over that time as well. Still his home splits are better than his away splits, which makes me leery of how he would do at the Cell. Still with the A's acquiring Kennedy, I can see them moving Barry in the RIGHT deal, not for the sake of moving him.

 

I'm on the same boat as Cheat, I don't think we need to trade for a big time starter. I would have loved Day, if the price was right, perfect groundball pitcher at our park, but I can't see the Rockies giving him up.

 

Of course the issue with Burnett is always going to be, how much do you give up for him, and can you re-sign him to a long - term deal. Do you even want to give him $10M a season with Mark Buerhle the team's ace making less?

[Chisoxfn]

Schmidt is the guy I'm falling back in love with. AJ has stellar stuff too, but I think he costs major league parts and quite frankly, I'm not dealing more then one or two guys, definately not Contreras.

 

Duque can go, but Contreras is and should stay on the south side. As far as VA suggested deal of Contreras/Uribe for Schmidt/Vizquel. Thats a pretty fair deal straight up, especially if the Giants are looking towards the future. Throw in a mid-level prospect and it gets the deal done.

 

Problem is I don't gie up Contreras or Uribe. However, I'd be more then willing to throw two of the Sox top prospects, a middle infield prospect (Valido/Gonzo/Lopez), a mid tier guy, and Willie Harris.

[Rowand44]

Schmidt is the guy I'm falling back in love with.  AJ has stellar stuff too, but I think he costs major league parts and quite frankly, I'm not dealing more then one or two guys, definately not Contreras.

 

Duque can go, but Contreras is and should stay on the south side.  As far as VA suggested deal of Contreras/Uribe for Schmidt/Vizquel. Thats a pretty fair deal straight up, especially if the Giants are looking towards the future.  Throw in a mid-level prospect and it gets the deal done.

 

Problem is I don't gie up Contreras or Uribe.  However, I'd be more then willing to throw two of the Sox top prospects, a middle infield prospect (Valido/Gonzo/Lopez), a mid tier guy, and Willie Harris.

Did anyone watch Schmidt pitch tonight?? I left and went out after the sox game so I didn't watch him pitch tonight but I'm still of hte opinion that he'll get better every start cause his stuff is there it's just the fact of him getting healthy which will allow his control to get better.

[DBAHO]

Schmidt is the guy I'm falling back in love with.  AJ has stellar stuff too, but I think he costs major league parts and quite frankly, I'm not dealing more then one or two guys, definately not Contreras.

 

Duque can go, but Contreras is and should stay on the south side.  As far as VA suggested deal of Contreras/Uribe for Schmidt/Vizquel. Thats a pretty fair deal straight up, especially if the Giants are looking towards the future.  Throw in a mid-level prospect and it gets the deal done.

 

Problem is I don't gie up Contreras or Uribe.  However, I'd be more then willing to throw two of the Sox top prospects, a middle infield prospect (Valido/Gonzo/Lopez), a mid tier guy, and Willie Harris.

Believe me, I know first - hand Jason isn't an El Duque fan after those Angels games on the weekend.

 

And I've said all along, we need to keep JC. Yes he was inconsistent in June, could crap his pants in a big game, and can walk a few from time to time. But he has great splits, a great BAA, and has flat out dominant stuff.

[Chisoxfn]

Did anyone watch Schmidt pitch tonight??  I left and went out after the sox game so I didn't watch him pitch tonight but I'm still of hte opinion that he'll get better every start cause his stuff is there it's just the fact of him getting healthy which will allow his control to get better.

Ya, I watched a few innings against the Dodgers. The Dodgers didn't make much good contact against him, however Schmidt really battled with his control and had a pretty high pitch count most of the game.

 

Mechanics looked fluid though and he was improving as the game went on. Fastball looked good and like I said, Dodgers weren't squaring up much against him (than again Dodgers haven't done that against much anyone as of late).

 

Still I liked the way he pitched and I think he's getting close to reaching 100%.

[Chisoxfn]

Believe me, I know first - hand Jason isn't an El Duque fan after those Angels games on the weekend. 

 

And I've said all along, we need to keep JC. Yes he was inconsistent in June, could crap his pants in a big game, and can walk a few from time to time. But he has great splits, a great BAA, and has flat out dominant stuff.

You know it. How was the 14 hr flight back.

[Dam8610]

Without his starts against the White Sox, what would his ERA be? Even if you omit April, it has to be over 3. I just don't trust Zito anymore, at least not until he can keep it together for a while. That's why I've been one of the biggest advocates for getting A.J. Burnett, because he could come in and be the #2 starter, and hopefully, he would be inked to a long term deal immediately and we'd have a killer staff for years to come. I still think that for the long-term, Burnett would be the best acquisition we could make, if it were at a reasonable price, however, for the immediate future, I could see just getting someone like a Zach Day to be the 5th starter. This might actually be the best option for the present, as it would be a huge insurance policy and if nothing else, a guy like that could probably be an effective reliever. It's just that when I think about this possibility in 2007:

 

Starters:

 

SP Mark Buehrle

SP A.J. Burnett

SP Jon Garland

SP Freddy Garcia

SP Brandon McCarthy (when he finally fulfills his potential)

 

Bullpen (in no partciular order):

Jose Contreras (KW did want him to be a closer originally IIRC)

Cliff Politte

Neal Cotts

Dustin Hermanson

Bobby Jenks

Jeff Bajenaru

Shingo Takatsu

 

That's just sick. I want that. However, I wouldn't sacrifice (or even delay) a championship for it. I just want what will improve the team the most THIS YEAR done. If that means no Burnett, so be it, but if we do get him, I won't be upset.

[DBAHO]

You know it.  How was the 14 hr flight back.

A nightmare. That's all I'm gonna say for now.

[Chisoxfn]

A nightmare. That's all I'm gonna say for now. 

Just remember, if you order that Sox jersey and they can't ship it to Aussie just have them ship it my way.

 

Check out sportsauthority.com sportmart.com and finishline.com

 

Usually they are all the same price, but sometimes one of those stores has a sale price thats cheaper than ESPN.com or Whitesox.com

[DBAHO]

Without his starts against the White Sox, what would his ERA be? Even if you omit April, it has to be over 3. I just don't trust Zito anymore, at least not until he can keep it together for a while. That's why I've been one of the biggest advocates for getting A.J. Burnett, because he could come in and be the #2 starter, and hopefully, he would be inked to a long term deal immediately and we'd have a killer staff for years to come. I still think that for the long-term, Burnett would be the best acquisition we could make, if it were at a reasonable price, however, for the immediate future, I could see just getting someone like a Zach Day to be the 5th starter. This might actually be the best option for the present, as it would be a huge insurance policy and if nothing else, a guy like that could probably be an effective reliever. It's just that when I think about this possibility in 2007:

 

Starters:

 

SP Mark Buehrle

SP A.J. Burnett

SP Jon Garland

SP Freddy Garcia

SP Brandon McCarthy (when he finally fulfills his potential)

 

Bullpen (in no partciular order):

Jose Contreras (KW did want him to be a closer originally IIRC)

Cliff Politte

Neal Cotts

Dustin Hermanson

Bobby Jenks

Jeff Bajenaru

Shingo Takatsu

 

That's just sick. I want that. However, I wouldn't sacrifice (or even delay) a championship for it. I just want what will improve the team the most THIS YEAR done. If that means no Burnett, so be it, but if we do get him, I won't be upset.

One thing that people have to remember if we are going to trade for one of these big name pitchers, they're going to be moving from a pitchers park to a hitters park. I can't really see the difference in putting down Zito when he's had really good numbers over the past 2 months and a half, and A.J gets off despite the fact he's still only won 5 games and his ERA has been increasing since the start of the season, the opposite of Zito. You've also gotta take into consideration how much each player is going to make next season.

 

Zito has an option for next season for 7 million. Schmidt's is $10 million. Burnett would get a long term deal of around $10 million a season, the same as Carl Pavano's deal basically.

[DBAHO]

Just remember, if you order that Sox jersey and they can't ship it to Aussie just have them ship it my way.

 

Check out sportsauthority.com sportmart.com and finishline.com

 

Usually they are all the same price, but sometimes one of those stores has a sale price thats cheaper than ESPN.com or Whitesox.com

Ok I'll definitely check that out, thanks for the links, and the offer.

[Dam8610]

One thing that people have to remember if we are going to trade for one of these big name pitchers, they're going to be moving from a pitchers park to a hitters park. I can't really see the difference in putting down Zito when he's had really good numbers over the past 2 months and a half, and A.J gets off despite the fact he's still only won 5 games and his ERA has been increasing since the start of the season, the opposite of Zito. You've also gotta take into consideration how much each player is going to make next season.

 

Zito has an option for next season for 7 million. Schmidt's is $10 million. Burnett would get a long term deal of around $10 million a season, the same as Carl Pavano's deal basically.

 

Zito deserves some of that rap, as up until recently, he's had an ERA in the low-mid 4s for the past year and a half, and hadn't been the same pitcher that had won 20 games in the past. The starts that got him below a 4 ERA for this year came against us. Furthermore, I don't think he's had a good start against a team with a good offense all year. Burnett is about the same age, has better stuff, has been more consistent over the past year and a half, not to mention his 3 CGs and 1 shutout this year. I don't know what he'd want, but based on ability right now, A.J. Burnett is the better pitcher.

[chisox2334]

Alot of teams looking at contreas and ya his value from last night game just went up

 

 

CLEVELAND -- If Jose Contreras can pitch as well as he did Thursday night, the White Sox's need for another starting pitcher might not be so urgent.

 

Contreras, pitching in front of representatives from at least six teams that included Florida, hurled seven shutout innings as the Sox held on for a 1-0 victory at Cleveland.

 

 

The Sox victory mirrored their formula for much of the first half—strong starting pitching and enough offense—as they snapped a three-game losing streak while extending their lead in the American League Central to 10 games over Minnesota.

 

The Sox's lone run came in the first when Frank Thomas' drive grazed the glove of left fielder Coco Crisp for a double that scored Tadahito Iguchi.

 

The Sox (58-29) improved their major-league-best road record to 28-14 while beating the Indians in a one-run game for the sixth time this season.

 

The biggest lift came from Contreras, whose season has been marked by inconsistency. Contreras (5-5) backed up his vow last week that he is a better second-half pitcher.

 

"The rumors came in the first half because the numbers that were there were not numbers that pitchers have on a winning team," said Contreras, who lowered his ERA to 3.99 while winning consecutive starts for the first time this season.

 

"I wasn't throwing like I wanted."

 

But Contreras has allowed only two earned runs in his last 13 innings. He admitted he benefited from throwing on seven days' rest while improving his career record to 5-1 with a 2.47 ERA on six or more days of rest.

 

He also eased some concerns about the quality of the Sox pitching staff with scouts watching closely.

 

"Right now, we don't have anything in mind," manager Ozzie Guillen said. "We have every [scout] out there.

 

"You ask the rest of baseball what they'd like to have, it's the same. You talk about [starters Jason Schmidt, A.J. Burnett and Ted Lilly], a lot of people need those guys."

 

Guillen had a meeting after a mandatory one-hour workout five hours before Thursday's game to reinforce his faith in his team.

 

"I'm happy with what we have," Guillen said. "If we need some help, I bet you [general manager] Kenny Williams will get some help."

 

For the second time in as many Sox series, a Florida representative was in attendance.

 

This time it was Dan Jennings, the Marlins' vice president of player personnel.

 

The two sides, however, gave themselves flexibility on their 40-man rosters with the July 31 non-waiver trading deadline approaching.

 

Left-handed reliever Kevin Walker was outrighted to Triple-A Charlotte on Wednesday, three days after the Sox optioned him.

 

The Marlins, meanwhile, designated veteran left-hander Al Leiter for assignment.

 

Florida's Burnett also falls under scrutiny, although the Marlins have a shortage of starting pitching.

 

 

Continue reading >>

[chisox2334]

Josh Beckett, the 2003 World Series hero, won't come off the 15-day disabled list until at least July 22 because of a left oblique strain.

 

part 2

 

 

Burnett, who threw a no-hitter in 2001 but is two years removed from reconstructive right elbow surgery, was tagged for six runs in five innings Thursday in a loss at Philadelphia.

 

 

Contreras, meanwhile, looked dominant with a split-finger fastball to complement his fastball.

 

"If [Contreras] throws the way he throws the last two [times], watch out," Guillen said. "He has a chance to be outstanding.

 

"But he's also got a chance to be very bad. I was very impressed."

 

Left-handed reliever Damaso Marte was just as dominating as he struck out all three batters he faced in his first outing since coming off the disabled list.

 

"Everyone knows that pitching is what we're built around," catcher A.J. Pierzynski said. "Defense, and scoring just enough runs."

[beck72]

You're kidding right? Beware of the guy that has good outings against your team. Seattle gave Boston Derek Lowe on a deal where they acquired a guy that did well against them and he was so bad I can't remember what his name was now. Zito did well 2x against us, but aside from that, what has he done in the past year and a half? Nothing of very much merit.

Zito has been back to his old form the last 2 months, and not just vs the sox. Add in Zito's postseason experience, success vs possible playoff opponents, and he'd be a nice option for the sox.

[beck72]

I'm on the same boat as Cheat, I don't think we need to trade for a big time starter. I would have loved Day, if the price was right, perfect groundball pitcher at our park, but I can't see the Rockies giving him up.

 

Of course the issue with Burnett is always going to be, how much do you give up for him, and can you re-sign him to a long - term deal. Do you even want to give him $10M a season with Mark Buerhle the team's ace making less?

Is there room on that boat for me?! If the sox get a SP, it has to be a guy who fits in this yr and for the future. Burnett doesn't, as he'll get a big offer for 4+ yrs in the offseason from someone. With his injury history, sounds too risky for the sox to invest long term. Schmidt seems like a reach as well [though if healthy, a good year and two month rental]. Zito seems like a sox guy though [good production, healthy, takes the ball every time out, affordable for 2006]. Though if the sox can get either El Duque or Jose to get on track to be able to go in a game 4 for the playoffs, the cost for a SP probably wouldn't be worth it. [as it would take away trade chips to fill other holes]

 

Getting Billy Wagner, a UTL guy who can play 3b in case Crede's injury becomes serious, and a 5th starter type, ala Day who could be in AAA in case a SP goes down, might equal the talent necessary to get a guy like schmidt or Burnett. Right now teams are asking for the moon for SP's, which will keep contending teams from filling all the holes they have.

[upnorthsox]

Lowell was very average the second half of last season, and brutal the first half of this. Up until then, he's an All Star. He only made 7 errors last year, but I heard his range isn't the greatest. He definitely would be a downgrade defensively from Crede. Offensively, he could be anything from a huge upgrade to actually a downgrade. If that's the deal, and really who knows, its a good thing that Ozzie knows Mike Lowell very well. What is the cause of the drop off? Did he use the same vitamins the Giambi boys and Corky were using?

 

How true Dick, any hitter who's #'s have nosed dived this yr has to be suspect esp. when he's packing a 'roid packed contract.

 

For fans of a team with Buehrle as its ace and also in the same town as Kerry Wood I'm dumbfounded by this love affair with Burnett around here. Flat out, the guy doesn't win no matter what his "stuff" is and one would think that Buehrle fans would recognize that.

 

IMO, Schmidt is going nowhere. SF was hoping for a reverse Sidney Ponson type deal and since no one is biting they're content to stay as they are. It's not like they're cash strapped or that his contract next yr is excessive. They have no reason to make a losing or even break-even deal, any interest on their part is to rape and pillage and quite frankly Schmidt doesn't bring enough to this team to warrant that.

 

The A's will end up winning the WC and it's the run that they're on now(that'll last past the deadline) that'll get them there. Beane has no reason to sell off Zito right now and as we're seeing his actually going into buying mode instead.

[S720]

The A's will end up winning the WC and it's the run that they're on now(that'll last past the deadline) that'll get them there. Beane has no reason to sell off Zito right now and as we're seeing his actually going into buying mode instead.

 

Gosh, if the A's end up winning the WC, let's just say I don't want our Sox team to have the best record. Let Boston have the best record and play against the A's, while we just duke it out with the Angels'.

[fathom]

If there's one player I'm sure wasn't on the roids, it's Mike Lowell. With his cancer history, I highly doubt he'd be willing to jeopardize his health by taking steroids.

[Winnin Ugly]

Hands on hips and back to the plate, a stunned A.J. Burnett stared into the Citizens Bank Park left field stands. He had just given up the third of three second-inning home runs.

 

Chances are the no less than half dozen scouts in attendance wore similarly perplexed expressions. Any of Burnett's remaining starts before the July 31 non-waiver trade deadline could be his last as a Marlin. Yet the coveted right-hander didn't do much to inspire prospective bidders Thursday.

 

 

 

 

 

hoping to set the second-half tone, Burnett yielded six runs through five innings as the Phillies beat the Marlins 13-7. In what is now a four-game losing streak, the Marlins have allowed eight or more runs in each of those losses (39 total).

 

Burnett's availability will continue tantalizing contenders who can afford the asking price. Among the teams with high-level scouts at Thursday's game: the Red Sox (special assistant to the General Manager Bill Lajoie), Rangers (Director of Player Personnel Dom Chiti), and Twins (assistant GM Wayne Krivsky).

Edited July 15, 2005 by Winnin Ugly