TRADE THREAD III ~July 9 - July 15

[drowninginflame]

why wouldn't you want to pitch for a contender?

[atrain081]

Yeah, Clemens isn't going anywhere. His son Koby is going to sign with the Astros.

[knightni]

Does anyone know anything about the list of teams Roger Clemens will accept trades to?  I was sure it was only New York, but the Cardinals say that Clemens will accept a trade there as well as a few other teams.  I wonder if the Sox are on that list ...

I don't believe that Houston would trade inside their own division, especially with a fellow contender like StL.

[atrain081]

I found it hard to believe too, especially with Houston at .500 in a weak National League, but here it is.

 

St. Louis Post Dispatch

[Balta1701]

With Houston on a roll and back into the Wild Card race...there isn't a chance in Hell they're trading Clemens. They saw this story last year, and they think they can make a run this year now that their offense is working better.

[SoxFan1]

With Houston on a roll and back into the Wild Card race...there isn't a chance in Hell they're trading Clemens.  They saw this story last year, and they think they can make a run this year now that their offense is working better.

Exactly. Look what they did last year. They ended uo being buyers, getting Beltran, and going on a huge as run to make the playoffs.

[VAfan]

Beck72, you are making all the arguments I made in favor of Uribe for Vizquel in both of the prior trade threads. The biggest one for me is his .400 OBP against right handed pitching. Uribe's was about .240 not that long ago. That's a lot of extra outs.

 

I think the best counterargument is the fade-at-the-end-of-the-season argument. Uribe did have a great September last year. And certainly he has more power potential than Vizquel.

 

The comeback to this is that Vizquel can be saved by playing Ozuna at SS against lefties. That will save Vizquel a month of playing time right there.

 

For the same reason, we need Ross Gload back to give Konerko time off. He's down in the .230s again and he's hurting the team offensively.

 

So my overall feeling is the Schmidt-Vizquel for Contreras-Uribe and a couple prospects is still the Sox' best trade bet. Sure, we get older at SS, but we get another lefty (with Gload back we could actually field 6 lefties) who balances better with Ozuna than Uribe does, and we pick up 2 guys with WS experience (though neither has won, so they still have the hunger).

[SoxFan1]

Beck72, you are making all the arguments I made in favor of Uribe for Vizquel in both of the prior trade threads.  The biggest one for me is his .400 OBP against right handed pitching.  Uribe's was about .240 not that long ago.  That's a lot of extra outs.

 

I think the best counterargument is the fade-at-the-end-of-the-season argument.  Uribe did have a great September last year.  And certainly he has more power potential than Vizquel. 

 

The comeback to this is that Vizquel can be saved by playing Ozuna at SS against lefties.  That will save Vizquel a month of playing time right there.

 

For the same reason, we need Ross Gload back to give Konerko time off.  He's down in the .230s again and he's hurting the team offensively. 

 

So my overall feeling is the Schmidt-Vizquel for Contreras-Uribe and a couple prospects is still the Sox' best trade bet.  Sure, we get older at SS, but we get another lefty (with Gload back we could actually field 6 lefties) who balances better with Ozuna than Uribe does, and we pick up 2 guys with WS experience (though neither has won, so they still have the hunger).

After today, I would do anything to NOT have to play Ozuna. Not at 3B at least!

[VAfan]

After today, I would do anything to NOT have to play Ozuna. Not at 3B at least!

 

He certainly looked overmatched at 3B, didn't he? My belief is he is better at SS because the ball isn't on him as quickly and you don't have to play the same kind of tricky hops.

[knightni]

Why wasn't Uribe at 3rd?

 

Then Ozuna could have played at short where he is more comfortable.

[CWSGuy406]

I just gave ESPN's career numbers for both guys vs those probably playoff teams.

 

As far as "past his prime", Omar's doing fine this year, like last year. And should be OK for 2006 as well.

 

Beck, I'm sorry, you compared 2005 Ozuna vs. 2004 Uribe?

 

Not even close...

 

a.)Ozuna isn't half the defender that Uribe is. Neither is Vizquel. Vizquel has lost a lot of range now that he's older -- he'll make the plays that come to him, that's about it. For a team that relies on GB outs as much as the Sox do, you need a vacuum up the middle. We'd see a lot more balls grounded back up the middle for basehits if Omar was there rather than Uribe. And, Ozuna -- well, he's a nice Tony G type of player off the bench, but again -- not nearly as good defensively as Uribe.

 

b.)Ozuna has a line of .302/.348/.314. One x-tra basehit. He doesn't seem to walk a whole lot, so if those GBs that he has placed so well in the first half of the season start finding their way to defenders, he's going to be in a lot of trouble. Uribe -- in a full season -- slugged almost .200 points above Ozuna. The comparison is terrible, IMO.

 

And, I hope this doesn't come off as me not liking Ozuna -- 'cause that's not true, he's been great, playing an average 3B/SS/2B/1B/LF/RF is awesome. But he's nowhere near as good as Uribe.

 

And Vizquel is signed for a third year. He's doing better than last year in AVG/OBP/SLG, and a lot better than his career averages. Uribe, OTOH, is doing worse in those three categories, yet is only .008 points behind in SLG% after an awful first half. I expect regression to their career averages (or, last years averages) for both players.

Edited July 10, 2005 by CWSGuy406

[JDsDirtySox]

Here is some interesting info for the Trade Thread.

I am watching the D'Backs/Reds Game right now, and they just showed some of the scouts in attendance talking about how the Reds (and more than likely the DBacks) will be sellers in the trade market very soon.

In the group of scouts I saw White Sox Excecutive Advisor and former GM Roland Hemond.

I wonder who all we are looking at on the Reds.

Randa? Griffey? Harang?

[ChWRoCk2]

after one game everyone ridicules a player, look at dye everyone wanted him gone before his hot streak, now hes the hottest thing there is next to the oakland A's ownage of us, harris starting isnt good because he doesnt fit that role, hes a utility guy he should come in just to put the tired guys on the bench and to run for them, timo i dont know how hes hitting this well lately but his defense isnt too spectacular and doesnt cut it in my books

 

last jenks needs some time and experience, he was too wild and was rushing himself on the mound, happens to the best

 

edit: post before mine:

 

i wouldnt want harang from the reds even though he is having a decent season, if anything i want adam dunn and they just arent going to part with him, and griffey aint coming any time in the distant future, so i have no clue who we might be getting

Edited July 10, 2005 by ChWRoCk2

[3E8]

Here is some interesting info for the Trade Thread.

I am watching the D'Backs/Reds Game right now, and they just showed some of the scouts in attendance talking about how the Reds (and more than likely the DBacks) will be sellers in the trade market very soon.

In the group of scouts I saw White Sox Excecutive Advisor and former GM Roland Hemond. 

I wonder who all we are looking at on the Reds.

Randa? Griffey? Harang?

Dunn?

[CWSGuy406]

Here is some interesting info for the Trade Thread.

I am watching the D'Backs/Reds Game right now, and they just showed some of the scouts in attendance talking about how the Reds (and more than likely the DBacks) will be sellers in the trade market very soon.

In the group of scouts I saw White Sox Excecutive Advisor and former GM Roland Hemond. 

I wonder who all we are looking at on the Reds.

Randa? Griffey? Harang?

 

...Dunn... Pwetty pwease...

 

Aww, 3, you beat me to the punch. If we got Dunn, I think you, me, and Cheat would all dance in the streets for days. Weeks.

Edited July 10, 2005 by CWSGuy406

[YASNY]

To address a couple of points made in this thread...

 

Crede is not an Ozzie ball player? Ozzie ball is all about defense. There is no one better at 3B in the AL today. No one. Ozuna made as many errors today as Crede's made all year.

 

Omar Vizquel has not lost his range. He's still a one of the best SS in the game. However, I am afraid that could happen to him at any time. I wouldn't trade Uribe straight up for Vizquel. No way. As part of a package deal, maybe. It all depends on the rest of the package. JimH does make a good case for Vizquel over Uribe for this year, but personally, I'd stick with Uribe.

[GoodAsGould]

I would say Chavez is better

 

In fact if you go look at RF Crede is towards the bottom only players worse than him are A-Rod, Mueller, and Dallas McPherson.

 

Although Crede's ZR is pretty good but thats 2 be expected because he covers less ground... for example Crede is number 2 in ZR and D-Mac is number 1... because those 2 dont have as much range. Brandon Inge suprisingly has very good range and zone ratings.

[Rowand44]

I would say Chavez is better 

 

In fact if you go look at RF Crede is towards the bottom only players worse than him are A-Rod, Mueller, and Dallas McPherson.

 

Although Crede's ZR is pretty good but thats 2 be expected because he covers less ground... for example Crede is number 2 in ZR and D-Mac is number 1... because those 2 dont have as much range.  Brandon Inge suprisingly has very good range and zone ratings.

Cred>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Inge Defensively.

[beck72]

Beck, I'm sorry, you compared 2005 Ozuna vs. 2004 Uribe?

 

Not even close...

 

a.)Ozuna isn't half the defender that Uribe is.  Neither is Vizquel.  Vizquel has lost a lot of range now that he's older -- he'll make the plays that come to him, that's about it.  For a team that relies on GB outs as much as the Sox do, you need a vacuum up the middle.  We'd see a lot more balls grounded back up the middle for basehits if Omar was there rather than Uribe.  And, Ozuna -- well, he's a nice Tony G type of player off the bench, but again -- not nearly as good defensively as Uribe.

 

b.)Ozuna has a line of .302/.348/.314.  One x-tra basehit.  He doesn't seem to walk a whole lot, so if those GBs that he has placed so well in the first half of the season start finding their way to defenders, he's going to be in a lot of trouble.  Uribe -- in a full season -- slugged almost .200 points above Ozuna.  The comparison is terrible, IMO.

 

And, I hope this doesn't come off as me not liking Ozuna -- 'cause that's not true, he's been great, playing an average 3B/SS/2B/1B/LF/RF is awesome.  But he's nowhere near as good as Uribe.

 

And Vizquel is signed for a third year.  He's doing better than last year in AVG/OBP/SLG, and a lot better than his career averages.  Uribe, OTOH, is doing worse in those three categories, yet is only .008 points behind in SLG% after an awful first half.  I expect regression to their career averages (or, last years averages) for both players.

 

I compared Ozuna's hustle and passion to what Uribe showed last season [which has been down from Uribe this yr--whether its injury or something else, the ball isn't jumping off his bat like last year, the allout hustle hasn't been there, etc] . I didn't compare talent. Uribe is a very good young talent, esp his d. Ozuna is a 30 yr old journeyman

 

My biggest case for a guy like Vizquel over Uribe is the sox could use a higher avg and OBP, someone who works counts better, a more consistent, versatile hitter who can give the sox more of what Pods and Iguchi can do, for this yr and the next few. From all accounts, Omar is no where near being done.

[beck72]

Here is some interesting info for the Trade Thread.

I am watching the D'Backs/Reds Game right now, and they just showed some of the scouts in attendance talking about how the Reds (and more than likely the DBacks) will be sellers in the trade market very soon.

In the group of scouts I saw White Sox Excecutive Advisor and former GM Roland Hemond. 

I wonder who all we are looking at on the Reds.

Randa? Griffey? Harang?

Could be looking at the DBacks as well

[GoodAsGould]

Cred>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Inge Defensively.

 

 

He doesnt make as much errors but Inge covers a lot more ground.

[beck72]

An excerpt from today's suntimes [remember, Ozzie ball isn't just defense, pitching and timely hitting. It's also old school fundamentals. Mr. Uribe may have some learning to do. Whether it's enough to replace him remains to be seen]

---------------------------------------------------------

What in the angry Oz-man's name was shortstop Juan Uribe doing in the eighth inning when he stood at home plate and watched his fly ball be caught by A's left fielder Eric Byrnes?

 

Yes, the ball was hit pretty deep, though not nearly far enough to even suggest a stand-there-ain't-she-pretty home run.

 

Yes, the ball was arcing toward the left-field foul line, though Byrne caught it maybe 20 feet from the chalk.

 

Uribe barely made it out of the batter's box after standing like a post and watching the ball in amusement.

 

A Little Leaguer would be benched for such a ploy.

 

And Uribe didn't make it to the ninth inning. Guillen jerked him faster than a hooked fish and inserted Harris.

 

''I wanted to show my players we're here for real, and not because we're friends,'' a steamed Guillen said afterward. ''If they think I will let them do whatever they want to do, then they have the wrong guy.''

 

Good times are here for the Sox, yes.

 

But bad times are never more than a slump, an attitude away.

 

Ozzie knows this.

 

Fun clubhouse or not, this is where it gets real.

 

---------------------------------------------------------

[Rowand44]

He doesnt make as much errors but Inge covers a lot more ground.

Says who?? Range factor isn't the end all be all in deciding who covers more ground. You have to watch the guys play to see who covers more ground not look at stats.

[GoodAsGould]

Says who??  Range factor isn't the end all be all in deciding who covers more ground.  You have to watch the guys play to see who covers more ground not look at stats.

 

Yes and have you watched Inge play except for the games he has played us? Before you asked it back I have. Crede is a solid glove at 3B but he overated defensively on this message board so much.

[upnorthsox]

Beck,

 

You can't be serious? You don't try to pull that play on Derek Lee earlier this year if you don't have passion.  Did you see that pick off play the other day against TB? Uribe cares. He has passion.

He didn't gain as much weight that people tend to believe. I seen him at soxfest, he looked a little heavier, but thats what camp is for, to get back in shape.  Frank has never come in overweight? Uribe is the only player to come in overweght?

Uribe is hitting the following against these possible playoff pitchers :

Johan santana  .267

Randy Johnson .273

kenny Rogers  .300

Mike Mussina .429

Curt Schilling .238

Matt Clement  .333

 

These pitchers pretty much hold the opposition to under a .250 BA. He's Not exactly an easy out.  Maybe it's just me.

Johan santana  .235

Randy Johnson .263

Curt Schilling .111

Kenny Rogers .271

Mike Mussina .260

no at bats vs clement

 

What about A.J.?  who is batting .247  What about  Gooch who Batted .244 In June  and  .250 In july so far.  Uribe is hitting .333 in July so far. Like I said he is up and down.  Dye is just as streaky as uribe. No one is calling for Dye's head because he is hot right now. Dye hit .175 in april and can very well do it again in October.  Last year Uribe hit .289 in August and .353 in September.  Uribe will be a  strong finisher. Vizquel is hitting .219 the last 3 years in september. Guess what? he is another year older.

 

 

Uribe doesn't bunt? move runners over? hit sacrafice flys?

 

Why uribe out and not crede? I bet most people would rather have uribe at bat in a game tying/winning situation  over crede.

I dont know how much passion and energy he can possibly have for a team he didn't even want to sign with a 1/2 year ago.

 

Funny how it goes, you talk up a guys passion and energy and then hours later he goes out and lays an egg and gets yanked for his lack of energy and desire. Some of the youngin's around here would say you just got pwned but since I don't know what that means I'll just go with the "Teaching moment".