TRADE THREAD III ~July 9 - July 15

[qwerty]

He doesnt make as much errors but Inge covers a lot more ground.

 

Zone rating is how much ground you cover not range factor.

 

Crede's range factor = .831.

 

Inge's range factor = .799.

[JUGGERNAUT]

For those thinking Rollins I think he's going to cost a fortune in talent to get.

He led the Phils last year in win share & he's very balanced vs LH & vs RH in his career. That's not easy to find in any player especially a SS.

 

I don't see why Cincy would trade him which makes me believe you would have to overpay big time to get him.

[Chisoxfn]

For those thinking Rollins I think he's going to cost a fortune in talent to get.

He led the Phils last year in win share & he's very balanced vs LH & vs RH in his career.  That's not easy to find in any player especially a SS. 

 

I don't see why Cincy would trade him which makes me believe you would have to overpay big time to get him.

Trust me, Phils aren't going to trade Rollins after signing him to that fatty extension about a month ago.

[GoodAsGould]

Zone rating is how much ground you cover not range factor.

 

Crede's range factor = .831.

 

Inge's range factor = .799.

 

 

No Zone rating is how you field the ground that you cover. Range Factor obviously is how much ground you cover. Unless your saying Dallas Mcpherson has the best range of a 3B which I doubt very much so.

 

 

Zone rating. The percentage of balls fielded by a player in his typical defensive "zone"

 

so range wise:

 

Crede = 2.59

 

Inge = 3.31

 

proving my point for the ground he covers Crede is awesome but compared to a lot of 3B he doesnt cover much ground.

Edited July 10, 2005 by SoxFan101

[Bubba Philips]

[On pros sports off the fox sports that Mark Redmond, pittsburgh sp might be available before the deadline era of 3.96 Pittsburgh can't come to terms with him

[Rowand44]

[On pros sports off the fox sports that Mark Redmond, pittsburgh sp  might be available before the deadline era of 3.96 Pittsburgh can't come to terms with him

Redman=Good NL pitcher, below average AL pitcher.

[Rowand44]

Conversely, I think Crede is drastically underrated on this message board.

Agreed. Especially defensively. People now are starting to come around to the fact that he's a great defensive 3rd baseman, he makes so many tough hops seem routine and he does have a lot of range because he's very quick over at 3rd, I don't care what the stats say.

[JUGGERNAUT]

I took a look at SFG minor league's & they have nothing ready to play at SS. We might be able to get him for as low as Ozuna/Harris & Gonzalez. Gonzalez is a our highly touted 23 yr old fast-tracking .300 hitting SS for the Barons.

 

Gonzalez has a chance with a solid AFL & ST for SFG to earn the SS position for 2006. He'll be 24 by then. Ozuna/Harris give them a guy to compete with Dievi Cruz for the rest of 2005.

 

Realistically the Giants are done for 2005. Heading into the break they are 9 gb in the NLW & 12 gb in the NLWC. It's over for them. By trading Vizquel they can free up about $10M & get a solid SS prospect for 2006. This seems like a no-brainer trade for both teams.

 

As for the White Sox Uribe becomes #2 in the depth chart for all middle IF positions & will play some SS vs LHers. Since Pods has proven to be as capable in CF as Harris that negates the need to keep Harris or Ozuna.

The Sox would still be in position to add Randa or another strong bat vs RH to beef up the bench.

 

Timo is staying. It's pretty simple why: RIGHT: .261 / .697

That's much better than Harris (this yr) or Ozuna & beat's the team average. His past 3 yrs vs RH: .290/ .739 likewise our better than Harris or Ozuna.

 

So with Vizquel our bench becomes:

Widger, Gload, Uribe, Perez, Everett

 

Gload: vs RH: .299/.802, 20R, 5HR, 38RBI : 2004 numbers

Perez: vs RH: .290/.739, 36R, 5HR, 40RBI : (His 3 yr avg)

Evert: vs RH: .235/.732, 19R, 9HR, 28RBI

 

Vizquel makes the bench even stronger vs RH on days when Uribe plays vs a LH. He'll be an added asset in CL&L against RH in the pen.

Edited July 10, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[GoodAsGould]

Agreed.  Especially defensively.  People now are starting to come around to the fact that he's a great defensive 3rd baseman, he makes so many tough hops seem routine and he does have a lot of range because he's very quick over at 3rd, I don't care what the stats say.

 

He makes a lot of good plays on tough hops but he does not have a lot of range.

[Rowand44]

He makes a lot of good plays on tough hops but he does not have a lot of range.

Oh but he does. Whatever, just agree to disagree.

[qwerty]

No Zone rating is how you field the ground that you cover.  Range Factor obviously is how much ground you cover.  Unless your saying Dallas Mcpherson has the best range of a 3B which I doubt very much so.

Zone rating. The percentage of balls fielded by a player in his typical defensive "zone"

 

so range wise:

 

Crede = 2.59

 

Inge =  3.31

 

proving my point for the ground he covers Crede is awesome but compared to a lot of 3B he doesnt cover much ground.

 

Range factor (po + a) divided by innings... which inge is far superior in... just means he is in the right place alot of the time and that more balls are hit to him.

 

Zone rating. The percentage of balls fielded by a player in his typical defensive "zone," as measured by STATS, Inc.

 

Range factor is how many put outs/assists you make in a nine inning game on average. He has had far more total chances than anyone in the league not because he has more range to get to those but because more are hit to him.

 

Zone rating is a pretty good measure of a fielders ability to cover ground aka range.

[JUGGERNAUT]

There are 6 numbers you have to look at to assess a player's defensive talent.

IP - How often has the player played

TC - How many plays has the player made

F% - Success rate of making those plays

ZR - How great is the range of the player in it's zone's position

DP - Double plays

A - Assists

 

F% - ((PO + A) divided by (PO + A + E))

RF - ((PO + A) divided by innings)

ZR - The percentage of balls fielded by a player in his typical defensive "zone," as measured by STATS, Inc.

 

The only stat in there that tells you anything about a player's range (N, S, E, W) to make a play is ZR.

 

The ideal 3B is one who ranks near the top in all 6 because that is a measure of both durability & talent.

 

Crede's ranking:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fieldi...llInningsPlayed

IP - 10th in MLB (-49 IP from leader Wright)

TC - 15th in MLB (-85 from leader Inge)

F% - 5th in MLB (-.015 from leader Blaylock)

ZR - 2nd in MLB (-.038 from leader McPherson but Dallas is 24th in TC's)

DP - 6th in MLB (-6 from leader Inge)

A - 11th in MLB (-58 from leader Inge)

 

His back spasms dropped him from top 10 to top 15 on what you would call

a durability & talent ranking. That can not be said for Dallas.

 

Is Inge better than Crede?

IP 1st, TC 1st, F% 14th, ZR 8th, DP 1st, A 1st

Yes. His great bat makes him more durable in the field.

Inge: VS. LEFT: .349 / 1.062 VS. RIGHT: .271 / .751 HOME: .299 / .863 AWAY: .274 / .762

[GoodAsGould]

zone has nothing to do with how much ground they cover though. It judges how a player does within his range.

 

For example, Tejada has amazing range at SS. If you look at last years stats he leads the league in RF.

 

But in ZR he fell down to 5th, and Tejada has more range than izturis, gonzalez, valentin, and izturis.

 

 

Or in another position lets take right field.

 

Ichiro 2nd overall in RF

 

but in ZR he is 14th... some guys ahead of him include: Jermaine Dye and Sammy Sosa. Dye being rated 3rd overall in ZR and Sosa 4th.

[qwerty]

zone has nothing to do with how much ground they cover though.  It judges how a player does within his range. 

 

For example, Tejada has amazing range at SS.  If you look at last years stats he leads the league in RF.

 

But in ZR he fell down to 5th, and Tejada has more range than izturis, gonzalez, valentin, and izturis.

Or in another position lets take right field.

 

Ichiro 2nd overall in RF

 

but in ZR he is 14th... some guys ahead of him include: Jermaine Dye and Sammy Sosa.  Dye being rated 3rd overall in ZR and Sosa 4th.

 

 

No.

 

First of all ichro is first in range factor and third overall in zone rating.

 

As i said... range is almost entirely a function of his number of "chances".

 

Zone rating is what measures a players fielding abilty aka range.

 

Just because range is in the title of range factor means nothing. Many titles are decieving and do not exactly mean what they say. I have given you the definitions of each and you choose to ignore them. If you like you can continue thinking you are right.

[AWhiteSoxinNJ]

New Trade Rumor:

 

Brewers: P Luis Vizcaino

 

White Sox: Box of used batting practice baseballs

 

Trade Analysis: This would be a great trade for the White Sox. They pick of some veteran baseballs that have some big league experience who can give them some quality use down the stretch. They also cut some payroll for a possible trade for a middle reliever that doesn't give up runs in every game he pitches. The Brewers get there pitcher back so they can make themselves look like the real winners in the Carlos Lee trade even though there win-loss record doesn't reflect that.

Edited July 11, 2005 by AWhiteSoxinNJ

[VAfan]

Assuming the SFG will not continue to think they can still contend I think Uribe may have given Ozzie & Kenny a new incentive for getting Vizquel from the Giants.  Ozzie was most displeased with Uribe's failure to run it out last night.

 

Of course any trade for Vizquel is likely linked to Schmidt as well.

 

 

The two of us are definitely of the same mind on the prospective trade with SF. I was intrigued by your idea, below, of making it for Harris, Ozuna, and Gonzalez instead of Uribe, though I'm not sure I like that better. From a defensive standpoint, certainly I'd rather have Uribe backing up 3B, SS, and 2B than Ozuna. But why give up Gonzalez if he might be the one to replace Vizquel when his contract is up? And why pay Uribe $3 million/year as a utility player?

 

Why not just make it Uribe for Vizquel, and then think about trading Ozuna and a bag of balls to KC for Graffanino or trying to pick up another utility guy with better hands at 3B and the same range at SS as Ozuna? After today, I could see letting SF have Harris as part of the deal since they may be looking for someone behind Durham.

[sircaffey]

Woth Omars stats he would be leading the team in BA, Hits, and second in Runs and stolen bases. 

 

I'll take him.

 

I like Omar. Willie must go, and Ozuna is becoming more and more career-minor leaguer-like. Put Juan back into the utility role and bounce him around the IF like Carl is in the OF. Our bench would be damn good.

Edited July 11, 2005 by sircaffey

[GoodAsGould]

No.

 

First of all ichro is first in range factor and third overall in zone rating.

 

As i said... range is almost entirely a function of his number of "chances".

 

Zone rating is what measures a players fielding abilty aka range.

 

Just because range is in the title of range factor means nothing. Many titles are decieving and do not exactly mean what they say. I have given you the definitions of each and you choose to ignore them. If you like you can continue thinking you are right.

 

 

Im using last years stats because they are a full season, thought you would be able to tell that after hearing the name Valentin at SS.

 

So are you trying to tell me last year the amazing Sammy Sosa had the 4th best range in RF? And Dye who we all know doesnt cover much ground has the 3rd best range in RF?

 

 

I think you are the one ignoring them because the definition for zone rating is The percentage of balls fielded by a player in his typical defensive "zone," as measured by STATS, Inc. That is saying how he fields within his range.

 

I know you always think your right, but unless you can honestly tell me that Sammy Sosa has the 4th best range in RF

 

And Moises Alou and Carlos Lee had the 4th and 5th best range of all LF's.

 

And Mark Bellhorn and Dangelo Jimenez had the 3rd and 4th best range of 2B's...

 

these are all 2004 stats look it up.

[fathom]

Put me in the category of thinking we need an update at SS. Uribe is struggling at the plate, and doesn't seem to be trying to do anything to change his approach (go to opposite field, be more selective). Colorado media always warned Sox fans that all Uribe wanted was the big money contract, and that his work ethic would go to s*** after he received it. So far, they seem like they know what they were talking about. I just don't see the same type of intensity out of Uribe this season.

[witesoxfan]

When examining ZR and RF as to which works best, you will find that both have their flaws. There is no stat out there right now that will accurately measure how good a players range is defensively. ZR has its flaws due to it not being able to correctly distinguish range, just how well players field balls hit in their zone. RF would be perfect if everything were neutral - neutral hitters, neutral stadiums, neutral GO/FO, FO/K, and K/GO...but that will NEVER happen. So you will see a very good defensive SS who will have a bad range factor on a flyball-strikeout staff, while seeing a very poor defensive SS with a good range factor on a very heavy sinkerball staff.

 

As it is, I would say that zone rating is better for judging a player's range if you were to just use one...but that is incorrect too, due to its flaws. Personally, I prefer to use both zone rating and range factor cohesively to determine how good a player is defensively...ie, Miguel Tejada, who is in the top 5 for both, proves he is a gold glove caliber SS.

 

JMHO though

[WHarris1]

Put me in the category of thinking we need an update at SS.  Uribe is struggling at the plate, and doesn't seem to be trying to do anything to change his approach (go to opposite field, be more selective).  Colorado media always warned Sox fans that all Uribe wanted was the big money contract, and that his work ethic would go to s*** after he received it.  So far, they seem like they know what they were talking about.  I just don't see the same type of intensity out of Uribe this season.

Hitting .286 in July, over .330 the last 7 days.

Kinda a weird time to make this post.

[qwerty]

When examining ZR and RF as to which works best, you will find that both have their flaws.  There is no stat out there right now that will accurately measure how good a players range is defensively.  ZR has its flaws due to it not being able to correctly distinguish range, just how well players field balls hit in their zone.  RF would be perfect if everything were neutral - neutral hitters, neutral stadiums, neutral GO/FO, FO/K, and K/GO...but that will NEVER happen.  So you will see a very good defensive SS who will have a bad range factor on a flyball-strikeout staff, while seeing a very poor defensive SS with a good range factor on a very heavy sinkerball staff. 

 

As it is, I would say that zone rating is better for judging a player's range if you were to just use one...but that is incorrect too, due to its flaws.  Personally, I prefer to use both zone rating and range factor cohesively to determine how good a player is defensively...ie, Miguel Tejada, who is in the top 5 for both, proves he is a gold glove caliber SS.

 

JMHO though

 

 

RF is almost entirely a function of his number of "chances".

 

ZR is a pretty good measure of fielder abilit to cover ground on the field.

 

Is it any shock that derek jeter is one of the worst in ''zone rating'' year in year out? Oh ya maybe it is because he does not move for a ball and he waits for it to come to him. As i said and everyone else in the baseball world says the more chances you get the better your ''range'' factor is. Inge has far and away more total chances than any other third baseman in baseball. Some players will get more balls hit to them do to their pitching staffs and are we exactly a ground ball pitching staff as a whole? Garland then... ya.

 

So, no, the Braves SS couldn't impact Chipper's rating. The SS can't play balls the 3B is responsible for. It's too far away and the SS couldn't be in front of the 3B and the SS couldn't throw anyone out from over there and deep anyway. Chipper did okay in ZR. He fared poorly in some systems because his team was a GB staff, but didn't throw GBs to 3B. That sounds screwy, but Chipper didn't have GBs hit into the ZR zone of assignment. It was dramatically depressed. Much moreso than Jeter's numbers (which aren't being impacted by the 3B either). Put it this way - if Chipper fielded *every* ball hit into the 5 and half of the 56 zone you are looking at and got the runner every time (100% efficiency), his Range Factor would still be lower than Aramis Ramirez' - the Pirates just threw more GBs to 3B

 

Another way to calculate a players range is uzr but that, like anything else, has flaws. Orginally range factor was the first thing to measure range but then people ( even bill james himself said there are way too many flaws for it to ever be extremely accurate. Then STATS decided time for them to try and improve the ways of finding a players range and then after that followed uzr.

[GoodAsGould]

I think im done with stats for now, this thread has been hijacked to be all about rf and zr and crede.

 

Im just going to what my original post was and say While Crede is good defensively he isnt as good as some people think him to be.

[fathom]

Hitting .286 in July, over .330 the last 7 days.

Kinda a weird time to make this post.

 

Uribe's OPS is well below .600 against RHP this season. He's one of the main reasons we've struggled against RHP. Uribe's power numbers are WAY down this season. Even though he has a few hits this week, I still don't see massive improvements by him at the plate. Our biggest problem on offense lately is that we have too many easy outs in the lineup. Only Pods, Frank, Everett, and Dye have been swinging good (and PK as of today).

[CWSGuy406]

Uribe's OPS is well below .600 against RHP this season.  He's one of the main reasons we've struggled against RHP.  Uribe's power numbers are WAY down this season.  Even though he has a few hits this week, I still don't see massive improvements by him at the plate.  Our biggest problem on offense lately is that we have too many easy outs in the lineup.  Only Pods, Frank, Everett, and Dye have been swinging good (and PK as of today).

 

Any offensive upgrade would be a major -- yes, major -- defensive downgrade. Even Omar Vizquel.