cwsox Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 okay, what I'm gonna say isn't my belief, but what if the other 24 guys in the locker don't want to hear that stuff? Molto, comparing things with gays to terrorists says a while lot that I am very uncomfortable with. Molto, what is this story - is it a gay player who says look at me, I am gay? f*** no, man. It is a straight guy asked what he would he do if he had a gay team mate. A true team player would say, "my team mates are my team mates and that is all that matters." No, it is Jones who responds with hate. It is not gays seeking attention - it is a homophobe taking yet another opportunity to peddle hate. This is nothing more than hate speech. This is no triumph over being pc. If a player said, I don't want no n*****s on my team, would that be ok? What about, I don't want any blacks, any African Americans, I want an all white team. Would that be wondertful non pc sppech or hate speech? The same is true with this issue. I don't want to f**gots or fairies or fruits or queers on my team - that is hate speech. And again, this was not a gay person saying I'm out, this is a straight person who could have said "dont matter to me" instead going out of his way, taking the extra trouble to say something hateful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molto Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 I understand Steff, but it is one player compared to 24 players. if 24 guys are talking about nailing a woman, and one guy doesn't like it, it is tough luck. now if one guy is talking about spending time with another guy, and 24 guys don't like it....once again, it shouldn't be that way, but it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Fact is it shouldn't matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 I understand Steff, but it is one player compared to 24 players. if 24 guys are talking about nailing a woman, and one guy doesn't like it, it is tough luck. now if one guy is talking about spending time with another guy, and 24 guys don't like it....once again, it shouldn't be that way, but it is. That's MY point Molto.. he is NOT talking about it!! He wouldn't dare. After what Billy said..? And now Jones..? No one is making straight players uncomfortable. Jones is blowing smoke up everyone's ass if he is saying there is an issue anywhere. (I did not read the entire article). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molto Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 I know, I ain't saying it is alright. you guys think I'm bashing gay people here. what doug jones said is wrong, but it is what he believes and I'm sure many other players feel the same way. I'm simply saying you can't change their views or the way they feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 You know what, I used to feel the same way... then I figured out I liked boys. I work and am not totally out. Do you know how much it sucks day in, day out to not be able to talk about what you did over the weekend with your partner of three years because you're afraid of what will happen if someone finds out you're gay? You're right being gay shouldn't matter. But it does. I hate the fact that I have to watch what I say because in Michigan, like 47 other states in this country, you can be fired for your sexual orientation. So when assholes like this say and think things like this... it makes it harder for gay people to be honest about themselves to themselves and other people. So yeah, it matters. Yes, you are right. It does matter. It matters a lot. I really appreciate your honesty. And everything else you say - I am with you all the way. I know exactly what you are talking about, all the way to the pain of being unable to say anything to the threat of job loss in Michigan and 47 other states. Right now I feel very close to you because I know just what you are saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molto Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 I think I got off the topic. I'm saying is you can't change a grown mans view and if you want to change this poor way of thinking and treating others, you have to start with the younger generation. that is all, I will not say another word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 I'm saying is you can't change a grown mans view and if you want to change this poor way of thinking and treating others, you have to start with the younger generation. While I think a grown man can change his mind as long as he has one, that we need to start change with the next generations I do agree with. How? I don't know all the answers, but one way is by acknowledging Jones' words cause a lot of pain to people. Other suggestions, I am really open to, because I don't know how to promote change. Your point about not talking about something that others don't want to hear - I see what you are saying here. You never really want to get me going on Eminem - I say a lot less here than I might otherwise about why I love his work because I know that no one here really wants to hear it. But what is cool is that I have my Em avatar and no one hassles me for it, and those who dislike his music don't get hassled by me for it, and others can post their heavy metal or whatever musical signatures and avatars and everyone accepts everyone without putting them down. That is all I ask of Todd Jones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 I got to say, at least times are changing to the point that this is being talked about and plenty of people are ripping Jones. This wouldn't of happened 20 years ago. Now it isn't near enough, but things are getting better for those that have had to deal with all the anti-gay remarks pretty much all their life. In the future, maybe, just maybe, people won't give a damn. I know I could care less what a persons preference is, if your nice, then your a friend of mine, thats the bottom line. I used to think like Jones, now but as I grew older I realized what the hell does it really matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 I know, I ain't saying it is alright. you guys think I'm bashing gay people here. what doug jones said is wrong, but it is what he believes and I'm sure many other players feel the same way. I'm simply saying you can't change their views or the way they feel. Molto.. I DO NOT think you are bashing anyone. Please do NOT think that. With that said.. I have to get going and sit in the rain again!! Who's a die hard??? Talk to you guys tomorrow. Let's all pray Mark is on and fast tonight! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 I know, I ain't saying it is alright. you guys think I'm bashing gay people here. Molto.. I DO NOT think you are bashing anyone. Please do NOT think that. agreed, very much agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 its too bad this even has to be an issue....i dont understand if you are not gay why would it bother you if somebody else was???...even in the clubhouse if your gay teammate finds you attractive...so freakin what??....if you are not gay you are no going to have sex with him so whats the problem?? it all comes from that jock mentality...i dont have the answers on how to change that...wish i did...maybe then poor mike piazza wouldnt have to insist he is straight every day of his life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Kickass Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Yes, you are right. It does matter. It matters a lot. I really appreciate your honesty. And everything else you say - I am with you all the way. I know exactly what you are talking about, all the way to the pain of being unable to say anything to the threat of job loss in Michigan and 47 other states. Right now I feel very close to you because I know just what you are saying. Thanks dude, with all the love - its starting to feel a little "lifetimey" in here. Seriously, I don't think about it too much, I'm only reminded about it when jackasses open their mouths about how people say hiding it shouldn't be such a big deal. Truth is, life could be much worse for me in Michigan... I could be a Tigers fan. Or live in Flint for that matter... or the Thumb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 its too bad this even has to be an issue....i dont understand if you are not gay why would it bother you if somebody else was???...even in the clubhouse if your gay teammate finds you attractive...so freakin what??....if you are not gay you are no going to have sex with him so whats the problem?? it all comes from that jock mentality...i dont have the answers on how to change that...wish i did...maybe then poor mike piazza wouldnt have to insist he is straight every day of his life Actually, I did a little research into that topic and the reason that he had to say he was straight is because there is another person (I think it was a priest, but somebody in a church leadership position) that is named Mike Piazza and is a homosexual. And this guy was very open with everybody so everybody heard that Mike Piazza is gay and assumed it was the guy on the Mets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Fainter Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Who cares if a player is gay or not? As long as he can hit and votes Republican. That's all that is important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Who cares if a player is gay or not? As long as he can hit and votes Republican. That's all that is important. oh s***..its on now lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmr31 Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 double stanndard - a hetero can f*** any female in the world, including other players' ex's and what not, but a gay guy can't have a date? I am not picking on you baggio - I know what you mean - but the question, who has the problem? A gay player has every right to a life just as much as any other player. a gay guy can have a date as long as the rest of society doesnt have to see it or hear about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmr31 Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 i do give jones credit for being honest...he could have just gave the standard pc answer...i think if people arnt honest about their feeelings then things will never change... all jones' is doing is repeating what he has been taught all his life. I don't give him any credit - bigotry is not something that I consider a virtue or triumph over "anti p c" - it is just simple double standard bigotry, and as you say, baggio, he is probably repeating the same s*** he has heard all his life. When do we break the cycle though? How? How do stop making it acceptable to be anti-gay? Baggio, if the whole world had your attitudes it would be a much better place. There have been gay athletes in sports from day one. It remains hidden because of the hetero jock macho atmosphere and the hatred that is still out there. The first out player will have to be a Jackie Robinson who can put up with great verbal abuse from other players, and bigoted fans. And meanwhile gay teens have high suicide rates and drinking and drug absue problems because they strughgle with who they are in a society that condemns. It is unaccetable to me any longer to accept these statements by Jones because it reinforces something very negative. It is ok to be gay. It is not ok to be a bigot. It is NOT okay to be gay. It sets horrible example for children and it disrupts the main reason you are on earth, which is to create. With your outlook on things, in a few short years, its going to be okay to kill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmr31 Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 why does a gay guy have to make it public? that's not the question. The question is does the person who is gay have to hide - because of fear. Yes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmr31 Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 If gay people would stop thinking of themselves for a moment and think of society in general, they may see things differently. I dont want to hear about hating, because i hate noone. I think its totally fine to be gay, if you keep it behind closed doors. However, when bringing attention to it, like so many do, you are just disrupting society and the norms of human existence. If you dont see that, youre extemely selfish. In fact, studies have been done, and gay men have VERY low self esteems. The reason behind that is they realize what they are doing isnt "normal". If thats the case, dont flaunt it! If you are in a clubhouse with 24 straight men, the wise thing to do is keep it to yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Kickass Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 If gay people would stop thinking of themselves for a moment and think of society in general, they may see things differently. I dont want to hear about hating, because i hate noone. I think its totally fine to be gay, if you keep it behind closed doors. However, when bringing attention to it, like so many do, you are just disrupting society and the norms of human existence. If you dont see that, youre extemely selfish. In fact, studies have been done, and gay men have VERY low self esteems. The reason behind that is they realize what they are doing isnt "normal". If thats the case, dont flaunt it! If you are in a clubhouse with 24 straight men, the wise thing to do is keep it to yourself. Bmr: I'd respond, but you aren't worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmr31 Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Bmr: I'd respond, but you aren't worth it. If youre offended im sorry, but its the truth, and you know it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 If gay people would stop thinking of themselves for a moment and think of society in general, they may see things differently. I dont want to hear about hating, because i hate noone. I think its totally fine to be gay, if you keep it behind closed doors. However, when bringing attention to it, like so many do, you are just disrupting society and the norms of human existence. If you dont see that, youre extemely selfish. In fact, studies have been done, and gay men have VERY low self esteems. The reason behind that is they realize what they are doing isnt "normal". If thats the case, dont flaunt it! If you are in a clubhouse with 24 straight men, the wise thing to do is keep it to yourself. bmr.. i happen to know of 4 gay guys ... all of whom are my best buddies and dedicated white sox fans to boot.... they are highly educated and hold very good professional jobs,not a single one of them is selfish, selfserving, not a single one of them has a low self esteem .. all of them are wonderful people and if you were standing right next to them you would never even know they were gay unless they said so and even then you would question it as if they were joking................they do not flaunt anything about their lives, nor are they the "flaming" type as society has put a label on gay men.......its the closed minded people who dont give different things a chance, people who are afraid of change, that keep things in this world from progressing.............you dont have to pratice it, live it or do it but geez just be open minded enough to let those who do want to live it, pratice it, and do it, be able to do so in peace without fear from harm...... its not alot to ask..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Kickass Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Bmr: I'd respond, but you aren't worth it. If youre offended im sorry, but its the truth, and you know it. I'm not offended. Just amazed. You know nothing about me except that I'm a Sox fan and I have a boyfriend, and you're ready to make blanket judgments about my life. Nothing you could possibly say is true. On a different note: I really hope we can pull a win out of this series tomorrow. If we lose the odd series, thats ok... but no more sweeps please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Bmr: I'd respond, but you aren't worth it. A smart move the benefits of which I am only now beginning to understand. Not only is he a hopeless simpleton (ample proof is scattered throughout his "baseball" and otherwise little theories), but what is infinitely worse, a bonafied, 100% self-involved asshole with a capital 'A' which he proudly wears Scarlett Letter style. Again, refer to countless thinly-veiled ad hominem attacks and laughably self-aggrandizing manifestos of his on the off-topic board for more. I am just glad people are starting to slowly recognize BMR for the moronic, confrontational clown he really is. You can print it, lol. Todd Jones? This is one of those issues for me which is either rant for days on end (I hate near-useless, patronizing platitudes in the "hate is bad", "gays are people just like us", etc vein) or say nothing, hoping that people like cwsox and their passionate and eloquent pleas will strike more and more chords. I simply can't do it justice at this hour, in this forum. you are right, but all I'm saying is if people don't care to hear about something, don't talk about it. doesn't concern just gay people, but things in general. I might agree with the above in the ideal, abstract (some would say intelectually lazy) sense, but real life/reality, which, as you know, is very complex, contradictory and cruel is something else altogether. Let's just say that back in the segregated day, not many people were all that willing to "hear" what Jackie Robinson, MLK, etc had to "say". . It's just the most obvious example but there are hundreds more... Unless of course you think "f**gotness" is destroying the fabric of society like a virus, is constitutionally comparable to pedophilia and was invented by attention-starved fetishists to piss upstanding Americans off only to be thwarted by Alnighty who sendeth the AIDS virus to curtail the sinners' onslaught...in that case pretty much disregard anything I ever said, you're dead to me, lol once again, it is wrong, but you can't change a grown man's view. Sure you can, it's done everywhere everyday, just think about it. Just because some things are still an uphill battle and aren't easily solveable with a cliche/slogan and just because humans can be intolerant dumb f***s if conditions are just right...doesn't mean the cause is futile...Anyway, its kinda funny-ironic that sexuality is something that many people feel is "changeable/controlable" but the views thereof are conveniently considered to be absolute. Amazing really...I have very little use/patience for bigotry and you can only play the "ignorance" and "I was conditioned by much bigger things that were around before my time; no use fighting this bio/psycho-sociological tide, let the younger generation take care of this perpetuated mess" card so much before I say "Stop, get over yourself and your inbred, outdated BS and take some f***ing responsibility for a change." I know selfishness and hypocrisy (whether religiously-, politically- or jock mentality-driven as noted by Steff, winodj and a few others on this thread or a weird amalgalm of all three) masquarading as morality, freedom of speech and pro-betterment-of-society posturing ....are a BIG part of human reality...but sometimes it gets so tiring and predictable and offensive to those who can fight the "tide" with one hand tied behind their back...that I want to start pimp-slapping ignoramii like Todd Jones. Hard. all you can do is try to keep that view away from younger people In the immortal words of one Texan, all you's queers can sodomize each other in closets and whatnot all you wants, but if you go anywhere near my kids and try recruiting them, there will be hell to pay. Besides, as Baggio noted, listen to some kids "opinions" on the matter. Hell, I was a homophobe myself as a kid and then a teen just a few years ago and so were many of friends. Sad but very true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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