whitesox247 Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 Good points, 1549 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 Whoever said a manager needs balls is absolutely correct....and I agree 100% and then some. IMO....you don't have to be a manager that yells your ass off all the time. Right there....I look at Tom Kelly. In like 15 years managing....Kelly was ejected 4 or 5 times. He was still one of the best managers in the game. I'm not so sure he's the type of manager that will work well with a young team....all you have to do is look from 1995-2000 to realize that....because the Twins sucked ass. But you look at his 1991 team....full of veterans, and a young player here or there(Knoblauch sticks out in my mind)....and they dominated in the playoffs. That's what I liked about Tom Kelly. And he had balls....you can't tell me that sending Jack Morris out for the 10th inning in a 0-0 game in the 7th game of the World Series isn't ballsy. I just don't think Manuel has that. You gotta take risks as a manager....sometimes, they'll bite you in the ass(for instance....in that game 7, Morris could have gotten his ass lit up...the obvious decision there would have been to take him out, looking at it in hindsight. Maybe he goes to the pen....and that pitchers gets his ass lit up....the obvious decision would have been to keep Morris in. Hindsight is always 20/20). Also...I don't think Joe Torre is a great manager. Any manager could start out 22-6 if their payroll was $160 mill or so. I think if you switched Jerry Manuel and Joe Torre spots....we are all b****ing about how Torre is a s***ty manager....while there are some backers....and we're saying "look at what a great manager that Jerry Manuel is. 5 World Series appearances in 6 years and 8 straight playoff appearances. JMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxfest Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 1549, I think someone not mentioned here would be a better fit than Valentine, or Backman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 1549, I think someone not mentioned here would be a better fit than Valentine, or Backman. I think I'm afraid to hear your answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 What Koch clearly said ... and anybody with eyes could have read his lips ... was "F--- Off" while looking the other way, not at Manuel. So to say he said "F You" to Manuel is heresay ... that certainly wasn't shown on TV. What about Konerko blowing a gasket in the dugout on Tuesday nite after popping up vs. Foulke? I didn't see any great backlash against Paul ... double standard going on here??? f*** off or f*** you whats the difference, the fact is its disrespectful and shouldnt have been said by the little punk..........and if he wasnt saying it to jm who was he saying it to??? the mound, the grass, the air??who..... he was clearly pissed cause he was pulled .....too freakin bad... you suck you sit.. plain and simple... poor rowand was sent down and you dont see him blowing a gasket in the dugout....as for paulie blowing it i had not seen it cause i was at the game and sitting over the dugout.......( a few rows back) had i seen it or heard of it then i would call him an asshole too..........theres a time and a place for that kind of behavior, behind closed doors would have been a better place to act like a crybaby throwing a fit..........no wonder we get a bad rap ... having a cow on national tv speaks volumes for ones attitude.............or the perception there of............. I for one, and I would hope most of you would agree with me, would have a problem if Koch WASN'T pissed off. I didn't see the expletive and obviously there are differing opinions on its meaning. I would however, be willing to bet his anger was more at himself for not getting the job done than moaning about being pulled. Baseball players in general are competitive as hell and closers have to be even more so. If my closer gets pulled because he isn't getting the job done, I WANT him to be pissed off. That said, I disagree with those that think he should be rested or have to "earn his job back'. I think the smartest thing JM could do is get him back out there the first save opportunity and show that they still have confidence in him. It would be nice if that situation were of the "beginning of the inning with 2 or 3 run lead" variety. Athletes egos are fragile and anyone that thinks managers don't have to manage those egos has no clue what goes on. The best managers are the ones that can stroke the egos that need to be stroked, kick the guys in the ass that need it and still make everyone feel they are being treated fairly. Guys don't always have to be happy, but they have to respect the manager's decisions and that is accomplished by managing those egos properly. Joe Torre is a master at this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 Guys don't always have to be happy, but they have to respect the manager's decisions billy botch had no respect last nite thats for sure............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 billy botch had no respect last nite thats for sure............ How do you know what he was pissed at? How do you know he wasn't pissed at himself? Guys throw tantrums all the time. Like it or not, I don't think you can assume that his anger was directed to JM and not at himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmr31 Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 billy botch had no respect last nite thats for sure............ How do you know what he was pissed at? How do you know he wasn't pissed at himself? Guys throw tantrums all the time. Like it or not, I don't think you can assume that his anger was directed to JM and not at himself. Id bet it was directed at the manager, dude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 billy botch had no respect last nite thats for sure............ How do you know what he was pissed at? How do you know he wasn't pissed at himself? Guys throw tantrums all the time. Like it or not, I don't think you can assume that his anger was directed to JM and not at himself. well my buddy in the locker room told me that after his little display of anger in the dugout yesterday he had a fit in the clubhouse and then a nice sit down with jm and kw both and then had a pow wow with a few of his teamates...... i would say that his display of anger was twards jm........at least thats how i hear it...... his shouting through the closed door also said something along the lines of "well when the f***er came and took me out i was pissed because i know i could have gotten out of that"..........(billy botch in a closed door meeting with kw and jm).....what would you think the tantrum in the dugout meant after hearing that............... im not speculating here just repeating what i had heard from my friend........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 billy botch had no respect last nite thats for sure............ How do you know what he was pissed at? How do you know he wasn't pissed at himself? Guys throw tantrums all the time. Like it or not, I don't think you can assume that his anger was directed to JM and not at himself. well my buddy in the locker room told me that after his little display of anger in the dugout yesterday he had a fit in the clubhouse and then a nice sit down with jm and kw both and then had a pow wow with a few of his teamates...... i would say that his display of anger was twards jm........at least thats how i hear it...... his shouting through the closed door also said something along the lines of "well when the f***er came and took me out i was pissed because i know i could have gotten out of that"..........(billy botch in a closed door meeting with kw and jm).....what would you think the tantrum in the dugout meant after hearing that............... im not speculating here just repeating what i had heard from my friend........ Fair enough....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmr31 Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 Closers have the mentality that they can get anyone out at any time, no matter how bad they are struggling. With that said, I highly doubt he was pissed at himself. He wanted to earn his money and not let the team down. I say stick with Koch and he will pay huge dividends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxRule Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 What Koch clearly said ... and anybody with eyes could have read his lips ... was "F--- Off" while looking the other way, not at Manuel. So to say he said "F You" to Manuel is heresay ... that certainly wasn't shown on TV. What about Konerko blowing a gasket in the dugout on Tuesday nite after popping up vs. Foulke? I didn't see any great backlash against Paul ... double standard going on here??? If Koch's "F--You or F--Off" was directed at JM, then there's a HUGE difference between what he did and what Konerko did. Konerko was pissed at himself, NOT disrespecting his manager in any way. And if Koch was not directing his anger at JM, then I have no problem with his actions. In fact, I would be disappointed in any of our players if they weren't outwardly angry in those types of circumstances. However, if any player publicly disprects the manager, then that is completely wrong. Konerko didn't and we can only guess as to what Koch's intentions were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 Closers have the mentality that they can get anyone out at any time, no matter how bad they are struggling. With that said, I highly doubt he was pissed at himself. He wanted to earn his money and not let the team down. Not to mention, you know he wanted to get the save against his old team like Foulke did on Tuesday night. Too bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 Not to mention, you know he wanted to get the save against his old team like Foulke did on Tuesday night. Too bad. is that why his first pitch was to the backstop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 is that why his first pitch was to the backstop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 didn't his pitch go way past Olivo all the way to the stands? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 didn't his pitch go way past Olivo all the way to the stands? I don't know. I was listening to the game on the radio and was out of the car for the lead off walk. Heard everything else after that though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 his first pitch was wild as hell which is part of why I was so down with JM taking BK out - that first pitch is what I remember most - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 Manuel, Koch Have Productive Meeting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 Manuel, Koch Have Productive Meeting lol i wish they would print what was really said..... but then again you would probably have to bleep out half the article..............lol...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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