My Rules for a Trade

[Chisoxfn]

First off, I think the Sox have a few areas they should possibly address. One would be a starter to help get this team through the post-season, not necessarily into it. The key being, I wnat a guy that can be one of the main gogs during the playoffs and be one of those contributing guys that puts the team over the top (not just gets us to the playoffs).

 

The Sox also have a need for a backup infielder or in my opinion a starting shortstop which allows Uribe to start about 4 days a week in the backup role. The key for the infielder the Sox acquire is for him to be good defensively (as good as Juan) and to be a better hitter who could slide into the 2 hole (give the Sox more steals).

 

Next, there could always be the addition of another quality reliever.

 

As far as how the Sox get any of these needs, there is only one requirement from me. If they want to trade for a front of the rotation pitcher, do not include Jose Contreras in any trade (unless they are getting two starters in return). The point of trading is to sure up the rotation and that weakness is Duque, not Jose. If the Sox want to deal from the major leaguer roster...El Duque (if the Sox get another starter), Luis Vizcaino/Shingo (if the Sox are willing to get another reliever), Willie Harris, and Timo Perez are the only guys I'm willing to deal.

 

If the opponents want someone else, I tell them thanks but no thanks. When it comes to prospects, if the Sox are getting a non-rental player, I'll give up some of those guys that may be deemed untouchable, however, if its a rental player I'd rather give lower level guys and the better rated prospects that may not be as good as the others (kind of a guess though).

 

As far as who I'd like. Burnett would definately be nice, but if they want more than El Duque and prospects, piss off (unless the Sox want to make it a 3 way and deal some prospects for Redman or someone else). Schmidt would be really nice, but once again, if they want more than Duque, Shingo or Viz, and prospects (i'm talking good ones in both instances) they can piss off.

 

Omar would look really nice. Personally speaking, I'd be willing to deal Valido and a mid level guy or even Valido and Shingo for Omar. Valido is the best shortstop in the org but Omar is the type of guy that could really help this team down the stretch and even in the next year or two.

 

In terms of bullpen help....the names are quite obvious. From Ron Villone/Scott Eyre to the bigger names like Billy Wagner, Eddie Guardado, and Brad Lidge. Once again, especially in regards to Lidge, I'd be willing to deal some damn good prospects. For Lidge, Jenks could be one of those chips.

[Gene Honda Civic]

First off, I think the Sox have a few areas they should possibly address.  One would be a starter to help get this team through the post-season, not necessarily into it.  The key being, I wnat a guy that can be one of the main gogs during the playoffs and be one of those contributing guys that puts the team over the top (not just gets us to the playoffs).

 

I just can't see anyone on the market who fits this bill. Schmidt and Burnett are the only names that I've heard so far, and both carry too steep a price tag for me, and are unpredictable.

 

The Sox also have a need for a backup infielder or in my opinion a starting shortstop which allows Uribe to start about 4 days a week in the backup role.  The key for the infielder the Sox acquire is for him to be good defensively (as good as Juan) and to be a better hitter who could slide into the 2 hole (give the Sox more steals). 

 

Next, there could always be the addition of another quality reliever.

These are the two moves that need to be made. Solidify the pen. Shorten the game.

Add a player who takes pressure off of Crede/Uribe. (Vizquel & Freel are the 2 guys I pursue hard)

I'd give up anyone(except Young) on the farm to make these to moves work. -- McCarthy can go to San Fran. He'd be more likely to succeed there. I'd be happy for him.

 

the rest of the stuff you said

 

My ideal line-up for the stretch run would subtract Willie and add Vizquel; or Subtract Timo and (Willie or Ozuna) adding Freel and Gload.

 

In the pen, I'd trim the dead weight of Shingo and Viz, and add Jenks (if he's ready) and Wagner.

 

That's a playoff ready roster...

 

Can you imagine a pen of Cotts/Marte/Wagner/Pollitte/Hermanson/Jenks?

Edited July 18, 2005 by Gene Honda Civic

[Chisoxfn]

I just can't see anyone on the market who fits this bill. Schmidt and Burnett are the only names that I've heard so far, and both carry too steep a price tag for me, and are unpredictable.

These are the two moves that need to be made. Solidify the pen. Shorten the game.

Add a player who takes pressure off of Crede/Uribe. (Vizquel & Freel are the 2 guys I pursue hard)

I'd give up anyone(except Young) on the farm to make these to moves work. -- McCarthy can go to San Fran. He'd be more likely to succeed there. I'd be happy for him.

My ideal line-up for the stretch run would subtract Willie and add Vizquel; or Subtract Timo and (Willie or Ozuna) adding Freel and Gload.

 

In the pen, I'd trim the dead weight of Shingo and Viz, and add Jenks (if he's ready) and Wagner.

 

That's a playoff ready roster...

 

Can you imagine a pen of Cotts/Marte/Wagner/Pollitte/Hermanson/Jenks?

I definately like the way you think. Freel is definately another very good option. Great versatility and he's a good top of the order type guy. Plus I think the bottom of the order gets so much stronger with Guchi sliding on down.

 

As far as starters go, I think your right on both Schmidt and Burnett. It seems highly unlikely that they could be had without giving up guys that I think are integral parts of the club (ie, Contreras, Crede and Marte).

 

If a package of Bmac, Anderson, Valido, Shingo and a mid-level guy got the club Schmidt and Vizquel, I'd do it. But I can't see that happening.

 

But like you say, just don't give up Chris Young. I'll part with any of the rest of the outfield prospects.

 

Who knows though, maybe another starter will go up on the market.

 

However, if Duque stays healthy (big indicator will be how he pitches his next few starts up until the deadline) than I could see the Sox staying put with the rotation and making the moves you hinted at. Wagner in the pen (without losing any of our other key cogs) is a major major addition that helps make the games even shorter, while a guy like Freel or Vizquel makes the offense better and gives the Sox so much versality and insurance (in the case of Crede's back).

 

If getting a guy like Free/Vizquel and than Wagner cost the Sox a few of their top prospects, so be it.

[White Sox Josh]

Let's just stand pat. I don't want to ruin chemistry. If we do make a move than it should be for a bat. And also why is everyone so anxious to get rid of Shingo. He had a bad outing. He was pitching better so lets give him another shot. He just needs consistent work. I really like what this team has right now though.

[Gene Honda Civic]

If getting a guy like Free/Vizquel and than Wagner cost the Sox a few of their top prospects, so be it.

Exactly. I think, or at least I hope, KW feels the same way. If you have to 'overpay' to get the right guy for your team, so be it. This is it. This is our chance. Go for it.

[Chisoxfn]

I also really, really like it. I said about a week ago that I was a little hesistaint for the Sox to go out and get the superstar player, this team just isn't about that IMO.

 

Getting Omar gives us a possibily better 2 hole hitter than we have now in Tad, and obviously that is pretty hard to do. My concern is what happens to Joe. I guess he could go into one of the Omar/Wagner deal. Omar at SS, with Uribe at 3b, and Freel and Pablo backing up the Infeild would be great.

 

With Wagner, its pretty clear on the upgrade he would be over a Shingo/Viz combo. You asked if anyone could imagine a pen of Cotts/Marte/Wagner/Pollitte/Hermanson/Jenks?, and it would be just goofy. Game over in the 6th, over.

 

Get it done KW, this is doable.

I think you keep playing Joe. He's too valuable to this team (his average may not be great, although he's made a lot of strides offensively this year). You play Vizquel at SS and let Uribe start 4 games a week or so. 2 games a week for Crede (to give his back some rest) and than a game a week for Omar and a game a week for Guchi). Acquiring Omar also spells the end for Willie as Pablo is a much more versatile back-up since he can play all infield positions as well as left field.

 

I just hope Kenny does deal any intregal parts to this years team. They have something special going and I'd hate to see them hurt their defense or weaken a bunch of other areas just to help out in one area. Contenders don't trade from their major league roster (not usually at least...I understand how the Cabrera for Nomar deal worked out though).

[SnB]

I really agree with what gene and tony are saying.

With the total lack of starters worth giving up alot for on the market this year, we can deal with a shaky JC every once and awhile.

We have a sick playoff rotation of MB/Jon/Garcia and i wouldn't feel terrible having to put JC out there if needed during the playoffs.

 

We need BP help, both shingo and viz are used right now as mop up men. We only need 1 of those, plus we have jenks that could fill that out early too as well. If we good get a 7th/8th inning guy, our BP would be solid.

 

I also agree with getting a quality utility infielder. With crede's back woe's, we can't afford to let him go down and have ozuna as the only backup. With crede and uribe struggling at the plate, they need some help on that side of the infield.

 

I have faith in KW, he knows what he's doing.

This should be an exciting week or so

[beck72]

If getting a guy like Freel/Vizquel and than Wagner cost the Sox a few of their top prospects, so be it.

Very solid reasoning. The price might be high [with guys like Tracey, Jenks, Sweeney/ Young, BMac for a SP] yet those two additions would complete the sox

[Heads22]

I've moved to the point where I have no untouchable minor leaguers. I'm not advocating selling the farm, however.

[Chisoxfn]

Very solid reasoning. The price might be high [with guys like Tracey, Jenks, Sweeney/ Young, BMac for a SP] yet those two additions would complete the sox

Exactly...I'd think the Sox would be able to hold onto Young/Bmac/Jenks while losing one of Sweeney/Anderson, than a guy like Owens, Tracey, maybe Valido. Plus the Sox could be open to dealing Viz and Shingo. Basically put I have no complaints. Sox could make those moves while holding onto the few guys they like the most. Plus the Sox have a lot of depth in the lower levels and you have to give something to get something.

 

But considering what it would cost to get that top tier starter, this really isn't that much and it will truly strengthen the club. A strong bullpen will be a major asset down the strecth and an even bigger asset in the post-season. It allows a team to really shut the door of a game as well as keep a team in the game.

 

And a pen with the main cogs as Hermy/Wagner/Marte/Politte/Cotts and than on the outside of that Jenks is pretty stinking ridiculous.

[SHAFTR]

I'd go after Wagner. He'd be a very intimidating closer for the playoffs. I'm still fine with Uribe at SS. He's a great fielder and good enough for a 9 hitter. He does the important things (a la Sac flies). With Crede's back troubles, I understand the concern in getting another utility fielder who can play 3rd. I'd recommend going after someone cheap instead of a Freel, Randa or Vizquel. In fact, I'd be happy with someone from somebody's minor system or a team's 25th man. Just someone who is solid defensive 3rd baseman and can spot start.

[beck72]

Getting Omar gives us a possibily better 2 hole hitter than we have now in Tad, and obviously that is pretty hard to do. My concern is what happens to Joe. I guess he could go into one of the Omar/Wagner deal. Omar at SS, with Uribe at 3b, and Freel and Pablo backing up the Infeild would be great.

 

Joe would get some time off to rest his back but his glove is too valuable to keep him off the field. Uribe would be the back up to 3b, SS and 2b, playing 4 times a week. With Vizquel around for 2 more years, Uribe could probably be dealt in the offseason. A $3 mill a yr UTL guy is too much to pay.

[beck72]

But considering what it would cost to get that top tier starter, this really isn't that much and it will truly strengthen the club.  A strong bullpen will be a major asset down the strecth and an even bigger asset in the post-season.  It allows a team to really shut the door of a game as well as keep a team in the game. 

 

And a pen with the main cogs as Hermy/Wagner/Marte/Politte/Cotts and than on the outside of that Jenks is pretty stinking ridiculous.

 

Having either Jose or El Duque for a game 4 isn't exactly a weakness. With the cost starting at guys like BMac and Anderson for a top SP, the sox would blow their load on this upgrade alone.

 

The playoff bullpen would have either Jose or Orlando as the long man as well. With a stacked pen, the sox could alternate days with basically 3 guys throwing per day, each with an off day. That doesn't even take into account the off days for a playoff series. Fresh arms to keep the SP's at 6 strong innings.

 

Big bullpen arm, and a #2 type hitter.

[Frankensteiner]

At this point, Jose Contreras is your Game 4 starter at either Fenway or Yankee Stadium. I like Jose, but that's not a pretty thought.

 

Burnett would be a much better acquisition than a bullpen arm, and provided we don't actually have to give up Contreras in that deal, he can always move to the bullpen in the post-season. Besides, Ozzie allows his starters go deep into games and I don't see him changing his style during the playoffs. Having 4 good arms (Marte/Hermanson/Cotts/Politte) should be sufficient.

 

Also, Wagner probably won't be moved with the Phillies making another run. And I would stay away from Guardado because of his shoulder issues.

[WHarris1]

You run 3 in the playoffs.

[beck72]

Burnett would be a much better acquisition than a bullpen arm, and provided we don't actually have to give up Contreras in that deal, he can always move to the bullpen in the post-season.

Unless the sox signed Burnett to a Freddy garcia deal [Not a good move w/ his injury history] it's not worth the cost in terms of talent [esp as it would keep the sox from making other moves]. Burnett will probably get a 4 yr deal from some team [and he'll be hurt for probably 2 yrs of that contract]. Jaret Wright comes to mind

[Frankensteiner]

Another quick note here, the Red Sox went throught the post-season primarily using only 3 relievers: Timlin/Foulke/Embree (Myers was used as a LOOGY a couple of times).

Edited July 18, 2005 by Frankensteiner

[CWSGuy406]

I'd go after Wagner.  He'd be a very intimidating closer for the playoffs.  I'm still fine with Uribe at SS.  He's a great fielder and good enough for a 9 hitter.  He does the important things (a la Sac flies).  With Crede's back troubles, I understand the concern in getting another utility fielder who can play 3rd.  I'd recommend going after someone cheap instead of a Freel, Randa or Vizquel.  In fact, I'd be happy with someone from somebody's minor system or a team's 25th man.  Just someone who is solid defensive 3rd baseman and can spot start.

 

I agree wholeheartedly. I'm not extremely thrilled with what Uribe has done on offense, but I have to believe he's gonna have a better second half of the season.

 

As for the bullpen, there's the guys I like a lot -- Wagner and Guardado are right up there. Then there's a bunch of guys that I think would be nice additions, certainly big upgrades over Vizcaino/Shingo, and if you could get them without paying a huge price, I'd do it. And, before I list the additions, I should say that I'm not as confident in Jenks as you guys are -- I wouldn't be that confident putting him in the game with a four run lead in the sixth. Anyways, Chad Qualls is a reliever that came up in the Boston trades, and I'd love for the Sox to grab him. He's 26 years old, put up a 3.55 ERA last season and is currently posting a 4.10 ERA with a 3.30 FIP (Fielding-Independent Pitching, I think that's the name), meaning he's been a bit unlucky. Then there's Scott Eyre, who seems to have found a spot as a pretty decent reliever -- ERAs of 3.32, 4.10, and 2.48 the last three seasons (3.25 FIP -- still damn good, even if it's above his ERA).

 

Finally, there's Lilly and Redman. Redman isn't great, but I think he'd be a nice arm to have down the stretch, a guy who can give you league-average innings. He'd probably hurt a little bit with the move to the AL, but I still think he'd be a decent option (again -- not suggesting giving Anderson up for him, but a prospect around the level or lower than Jerry Owens, and I'm not sure that Pitt would even do that). I'd love Lilly, a whole lot more than Redman, but Toronto is going to have to lose some games this coming week for that to open up a little bit.

 

EDIT: And I'm calling it Jason. As one of Duque's biggest backers, he's going to pitch his best game of the year Saturday vs. Boston. I'll be there to witness it. Just to stick it in your face.

Edited July 18, 2005 by CWSGuy406

[CWSGuy406]

Another quick note here, the Red Sox went throught the post-season primarily using only 3 relievers: Timlin/Foulke/Embree (Myers was used as a LOOGY a couple of times).

 

The Red Sox also had Curt Schilling and Pedro Martinez.

 

I like Mark Buehrle and Freddy Garcia -- I like 'em a lot, but they're no Schilling/Pedro.

[Wedge]

The Red Sox also had Curt Schilling and Pedro Martinez.

 

I like Mark Buehrle and Freddy Garcia -- I like 'em a lot, but they're no Schilling/Pedro.

 

Yeah, but Schilling/Pedro are no Schilling/Pedro this season, either.

[southsider2k5]

Yeah, but Schilling/Pedro are no Schilling/Pedro this season, either.

 

Pedro has been awesome. Schilling has been a non-factor.

[Wedge]

Pedro has been awesome.  Schilling has been a non-factor.

 

Quite right, but I meant moreso the tandem to raise the point that maybe the scariest potential postseason tandem presented is the one of the White Sox. The only one that really comes close is the Astros.

[southsider2k5]

Quite right, but I meant moreso the tandem to raise the point that maybe the scariest potential postseason tandem presented is the one of the White Sox.  The only one that really comes close is the Astros.

 

I'll tell you what, as hot as they are, Zito and Harden could be real impossible to hit come October.

[CWSGuy406]

Yeah, but Schilling/Pedro are no Schilling/Pedro this season, either.

 

I understand that.

 

I was just addressing the point brought up about not needing a deep 'pen in the playoffs, as the BoSox only used three relievers (is that true? I could've sworn they used Lowe out of the 'pen at one point or another).

 

If the Sox could get the lead going into the seventh inning, that's huge. Shortening the game by a third. Then go to whatever combo in the seventh of Cotts/Politte, then in the 8th to Hermy/Marte, then to the ninth with Wagner (or Guardado). That's an awesome bullpen.

[White Sox Josh]

At this point, Jose Contreras is your Game 4 starter at either Fenway or Yankee Stadium. I like Jose, but that's not a pretty thought.

 

Burnett would be a much better acquisition than a bullpen arm, and provided we don't actually have to give up Contreras in that deal, he can always move to the bullpen in the post-season. Besides, Ozzie allows his starters go deep into games and I don't see him changing his style during the playoffs. Having 4 good arms (Marte/Hermanson/Cotts/Politte) should be sufficient.

 

Also, Wagner probably won't be moved with the Phillies making another run. And I would stay away from Guardado because of his shoulder issues.

he pitched well when he was with the Sox against the Red Sawx at Fenway last year. His line was as followed:

Aug. 13

@BOS

W 8-7

6.0

4

4

4

1

5

8

9

3

111

27

51