Dan Patrick Show starring Erik Kuselias

[innersanctum]

I was listening with gritted teeth yesterday as Erik Kuselias couldn't say enough about the Angels and Yankees (and Tony Gwynn was getting in on this train of thought also) being the ALCS. He said the Sox were below average team playing above their abilities. He also said their lineup would not allow them to be in the world series.

 

Oh and he believes that they are having a great regular season but a great regular season will not lead to a great post season! I really don't like this guy. Then I wake up this a.m. and on the way to work, this guy is subbing for Mike and Mike and he is trying to stir the pot about Palmiero not being a first ballot HOF'er. It must just be his style to do this. I don't know though because I never listen to the SportsBash in the afternoon.

 

I guess I always thought that Good/Great pitching always beats Good/Great hitting. He would give no credit to a great pitching staff and it really pissed me off! In the end it really doesn't make any difference to me what announcers believe or think because I will support the Sox no matter what transpires.

[Steff]

The White Sox haven't done squat in the post season so I expect to be the underdogs..

 

As for Raffy.. I agree with him. Raffy HAS been subpar his entire career. 4 AS appearances in 20 years.. no way is he a first ballot HOF'er.

[3E8]

The White Sox haven't done squat in the post season so I expect to be the underdogs..

 

As for Raffy.. I agree with him. Raffy HAS been subpar his entire career. 4 AS appearances in 20 years.. no way is he a first ballot HOF'er.

What?

 

I don't think it's fair to call a 3000 hit, 500 home run major leaguer subpar. A career 132 OPS+ player is subpar?

 

Here are players that baseball-reference.com listed as similar to Palmiero through the same age:

 

Eddie Murray

Frank Robinson

Carl Yastrzemski

Fred McGriff

Al Kaline

Reggie Jackson

Willie Mays

Dave Winfield

Mike Schmidt

Andre Dawson

 

Good company, no? (8 of those 10 are HOF'ers)

Edited July 19, 2005 by 3E8

[whitesoxfan101]

The Raffy NOT being a first ballot HOF people officially lost when he joined the 3,000/500 club, whose only members are Eddie Murray, Hank Aaron, and Willie Mays.

 

If that doesn't put him in on the first ballot, nothing will....

Edited July 19, 2005 by whitesoxfan101

[Steff]

What?

 

I don't think it's fair to call a 3000 hit, 500 home run major leaguer subpar.

 

 

Noted. My opinion.. he's subpar.

[CanOfCorn]

Noted. My opinion.. he's subpar.

 

I don't think he's a first ballot HOF'er, but he's definitely within the first three years. The Hall of Fame shouldn't be about best player at his position for his era only. Sammy Sosa has more homers but significantly less hits. 3000/500 is what makes him a Hall of Famer, just like Eddie Murray should be a Hall of Famer. You can't punish a player for playing in hitter's parks, that's just not fair. And he's probably going to play for another couple of years and may make it to 3000/600? Would that make him a HOF'er?

[YASNY]

The steroid thing is hanging over his head, justifiably or not. I do not think Raffy will be a 1st ballot guy. That's part of the reason. Add to that the fact that he hasn't ever been great. He's been consistantly very good, but not great. That should get him into the hall. Think Don Sutton here for a similar example as far as performance goes. Raffy's never even got close enough to an MVP award to sniff it.

[Steff]

I don't think he's a first ballot HOF'er, but he's definitely within the first three years.  The Hall of Fame shouldn't be about best player at his position for his era only.  Sammy Sosa has more homers but significantly less hits.  3000/500 is what makes him a Hall of Famer, just like Eddie Murray should be a Hall of Famer.  You can't punish a player for playing in hitter's parks, that's just not fair.  And he's probably going to play for another couple of years and may make it to 3000/600?  Would that make him a HOF'er?

 

IMO, no. Like Yas said.. he's this................................................................... far from ever being named an MVP in addition to his teammates not naming him to the AS squad. I'm sure he'll get in.. I just don't think it should be first ballot.

 

And YAS.. I agree on the roids issue as well.

[Milkman delivers]

I'm huge on the steroid speculation (as you've seen), and I believe that Palmeiro was on them.

 

Aside from that, he should still be a 1st ballot HOFer based on what he's done. Damn it, the guy is gonna be a 3,000/600 player. Only two other guys have done that. He's batting over .300 in his career. He probably had help along the way, but I can't argue with the numbers. I can't even fathom him not being in on the 1st ballot with those numbers.

[YASNY]

I'm huge on the steroid speculation (as you've seen), and I believe that Palmeiro was on them.

 

Aside from that, he should still be a 1st ballot HOFer based on what he's done.  Damn it, the guy is gonna be a 3,000/600 player.  Only two other guys have done that.  He's batting over .300 in his career.  He probably had help along the way, but I can't argue with the numbers.  I can't even fathom him not being in on the 1st ballot with those numbers.

 

Fathom it, cuz it won't happen.

[SoxFanForever]

Fathom it, cuz it won't happen.

[3E8]

Palmiero will be a first ballot.

 

On Bill James' HOF Monitor stat, Palmeiro scores a 156. This stat determines how likely it is a player will enter the hall of fame.

 

A score of 100 means the players has a good chance to enter the Hall of Fame. A score of 130 means the player is a practically a shoe-in. With 156, Palmiero ranks 63rd amongst every batter to ever play the game and that number can only rise.

[Steff]

Palmiero will be a first ballot.

 

On Bill James' HOF Monitor stat, Palmeiro scores a 156.  This stat determines how likely it is a player will enter the hall of fame.

 

A score of 100 means the players has a good chance to enter the Hall of Fame.  A score of 130 means the player is a practically a shoe-in.  With 156, Palmiero ranks 63rd amongst every batter to ever play the game and that number can only rise.

 

 

Where's this monitor stat..? TIA.

[Milkman delivers]

Where's this monitor stat..? TIA.

 

They have one at http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/palmera01.shtml

 

It's under HOF Monitor.

[greasywheels121]

Well Frank's a 179.

[Steff]

Thanks.

[YASNY]

Look, I respect Rafael Palmeiro very much. He's been a very very good ball player for a long time. But, throw away all the obscure stats. He has to be voted in by members of the BBWA and he will not be elected on the first ballot. He wasn't a Yankee. He wasn't a Dodger. He wasn't a Red Sox. Never close to an MVP. No batting titles. No RBI titles. No HR titles. Never won a pennant. I'd venture to guess he'll get in on his 3rd or 4th ballot. It depends on who else is part of the equation at the time.

[Texsox]

Hall.of.Fame

 

Not Hall.of.Great

Not Hall.of.MVPs

Not Hall of.Titles

 

Hall.of.Fame

 

If 3000/600 doesn't earn you Fame, I don't know what will. Yes, he was consistently very good for longer than anyone else. That in itself is an accomplishment. If he was on steroids, he managed to avoid injuries during that time. I believe there is room in the Hall for someone who competed for years and years and amassed such tremendous stats.

 

All-star appearances? Is Konerko closer to the Hall because he's been on a team? Being the fourth best player at your position for 25 years would be quite an accomplishment, especially if during that time there are 25 different guys who were considered #1.

 

Being consistent is pretty special, look at E-Lo as someone who managed one incredible season, but lacked consistency for an example.

[Milkman delivers]

Hall.of.Fame

 

Not Hall.of.Great

Not Hall.of.MVPs

Not Hall of.Titles

 

Hall.of.Fame

 

If 3000/600 doesn't earn you Fame, I don't know what will. Yes, he was consistently very good for longer than anyone else. That in itself is an accomplishment. If he was on steroids, he managed to avoid injuries during that time. I believe there is room in the Hall for someone who competed for years and years and amassed such tremendous stats.

 

All-star appearances? Is Konerko closer to the Hall because he's been on a team? Being the fourth best player at your position for 25 years would be quite an accomplishment, especially if during that time there are 25 different guys who were considered #1.

 

Being consistent is pretty special, look at E-Lo as someone who managed one incredible season, but lacked consistency for an example.

 

Great points. That part about ASG appearances is funny, because that argument sounds like something a Cub fan would make. "Yeah, well how many ASGs has he been in? Thought so, he sucks."

[mreye]

Well Frank's a 179.

Damnit! I spent my time looking for that and all I had to do was scroll to the next post.

[Steff]

Great points.  That part about ASG appearances is funny, because that argument sounds like something a Cub fan would make.  "Yeah, well how many ASGs has he been in?  Thought so, he sucks."

 

 

Perhaps to you, but if the guys own f***ing teammates & peers don't think he's worth enough s*** to vote him onto the midsummer classic roster.. I sure as hell don't think those who vote him into the hall will either.

 

As for calling me a Cub fan because I have an opinion different of yours.. rather than to even bother to think that there are 2 sides to the coin and a possibility that he may not get in first ballot.. well.. that sounds like the stupid ass Cub fans that I know talking.

 

And I never said he sucks, so don't put words in my mouth.

[Fotop]

Palmiero will be a first ballot.

 

On Bill James' HOF Monitor stat, Palmeiro scores a 156.  This stat determines how likely it is a player will enter the hall of fame.

 

A score of 100 means the players has a good chance to enter the Hall of Fame.  A score of 130 means the player is a practically a shoe-in.  With 156, Palmiero ranks 63rd amongst every batter to ever play the game and that number can only rise.

 

/beginrant

 

HOF Monitor Stat? WTF. Now this is in no disrespect to Bill James, Bill James is a very smart and knowledgeable man. But really, inventing statistics like this just have a moneyball like effect on pseudo-sabermetricians. What I mean is, people start to run around and say "hey this obscure statistic says Cliff Politte should win the Cy Young!"

(see: Cy Young Predictor, also made by James and promoted by Rob Neyer and ESPN) just because they read it somewhere and believe it to be absolutely true.

 

But baseball isn't about obscure predictors and obscure statistics. It's about what's played between the lines. It also involves many more factors other than just numbers...especially if we're talking about awards. So really, my main gripe about all of these wacky stats is that it's not about WATCHING baseball anymore. If you're using things like Cy Young Predictors and HOF Predictors as law, just WATCH more baseball and make your own opinion.

 

That is all.

 

/endrant

 

[3E8]

I understand your gripe. But I've never had the chance to watch enough baseball outside of the White Sox (and Cubs if I chose for some reason) to make a valid decision. Watching him play about 10 games per year doesn't really allow me to decipher wether I'm watching a HOF'er or not. Statistics do.

 

Just looking at players who have HOF monitor scores around Palmiero's are all in the Hall. I'm not saying this is the end all be all. It gives me a good idea of when he will be enlisted though.

[Steff]

I understand your gripe.  But I've never had the chance to watch enough baseball outside of the White Sox (and Cubs if I chose for some reason) to make a valid decision.  Watching him play about 10 games per year doesn't really allow me to decipher wether I'm watching a HOF'er or not.  Statistics do. 

 

Just looking at players who have HOF monitor scores around Palmiero's are all in the Hall.  I'm not saying this is the end all be all.  It gives me a good idea of when he will be enlisted though.

 

 

It's not a gripe.. it's simply an opinion backed by the opinions of guys who have watched him play hundreds of games.

[Milkman delivers]

Perhaps to you, but if the guys own f***ing teammates & peers don't think he's worth enough s*** to vote him onto the midsummer classic roster.. I sure as hell don't think those who vote him into the hall will either.

 

As for calling me a Cub fan because I have an opinion different of yours.. rather than to even bother to think that there are 2 sides to the coin and a possibility that he may not get in first ballot.. well.. that sounds like the stupid ass Cub fans that I know talking.

 

And I never said he sucks, so don't put words in my mouth.

 

Woah, it seems like you're overreacting here. I was pretty much just kidding.