Steff Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Jul 19, 2005 -> 03:25 PM) Woah, it seems like you're overreacting here. I was pretty much just kidding. Of course you were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 QUOTE(Steff @ Jul 19, 2005 -> 03:28 PM) Of course you were. I was serious about Palmeiro being a first-ballot HOFer. I was making a joke about the Cub fan thing. Can't you picture a Cub fan making an argument saying a guy stinks just because he hasn't been in many ASGs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 QUOTE(Steff @ Jul 19, 2005 -> 03:18 PM) It's not a gripe.. it's simply an opinion backed by the opinions of guys who have watched him play hundreds of games. My response wasn't directed towards you. I was writing about what Fotop said his main gripe was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 QUOTE(3E8 @ Jul 19, 2005 -> 03:41 PM) My response wasn't directed towards you. I was writing about what Fotop said his main gripe was. Whoops.. sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wsox08 Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Pameiro on steroids, I think not... He just told me he never took him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotop Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 QUOTE(3E8 @ Jul 19, 2005 -> 03:15 PM) I understand your gripe. But I've never had the chance to watch enough baseball outside of the White Sox (and Cubs if I chose for some reason) to make a valid decision. Watching him play about 10 games per year doesn't really allow me to decipher wether I'm watching a HOF'er or not. Statistics do. Just looking at players who have HOF monitor scores around Palmiero's are all in the Hall. I'm not saying this is the end all be all. It gives me a good idea of when he will be enlisted though. Completely understandable. I was basically just venting on the people that basically plug their ears with stat sheets. However, I'm quite sure that you and most of the people on this site are well aware of both sides of the coin. Believe me, I use statistics just as much as the next guy but there has to be a line where enough is enough...and to me that's these "predictor" dealies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 (edited) I think Palmeiro will definitely get in, and he should. The first ballot thing is another story. In my book, first ballot is reserved for the all-time greats, the guys with the MVP awards, the superstar players, the best player at his position for some time. Because of this, I don't think he should be in on the first ballot. As we've said, he's never even come close to being an MVP, he isn't exactly a household name, and I can't say with a straight face that he was ever the best 1B in the league. His stats are impressive, but that has as much to do with his longevity as his skill. When looking at raw career numbers, longevity is a major factor. If you play 20 years, you need to average 150 hits and 25 homers a year to get 3000 and 500. If you play 15, you need to average 200 hits and between 33 and 34 homers. There's quite a difference there, even though both players had a very long career. So when comparing his 3000 hits and 500 homers to other guys in the past that didn't do it, consider that. With the really old players, you also have to consider that they didn't play in the era of the 162 game schedule. That also can have an impact on their career totals. I personally like to look at yearly averages or their performance in their prime when comparing two different players, not their career totals. I don't think a couple of homers when the guy is 40 should determine whether or not a player is a hall of famer. Edited July 19, 2005 by ZoomSlowik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 But to average 174 hits with 33 home runs and 108 rbi's over 19 seasons in the major leagues is damn impressive. Obviously those will drop as he keeps playing but still solid. There's something to be said for consistency. And to those who keep saying he was never close to getting an MVP he finished top 10 in voting 3 times. So I guess it all depends what your definition of close is but I thought it was notable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 In my book, first ballot is reserved for the all-time greats My sentiments exactly. The all time greats, not the all time very goods. Raffy WILL make the Hall, no doubt. In my mind there is also no doubt that he'll be skipped over on the first ballot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 QUOTE(YASNY @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 08:50 AM) My sentiments exactly. The all time greats, not the all time very goods. Raffy WILL make the Hall, no doubt. In my mind there is also no doubt that he'll be skipped over on the first ballot. I've never understood the whole 1st ballot thing. Does the player suddenly get better the next year? Either he's Hall worthy or not. To me it seems silly when I player gets in on the second or third try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 QUOTE(Texsox @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 08:59 AM) I've never understood the whole 1st ballot thing. Does the player suddenly get better the next year? Either he's Hall worthy or not. To me it seems silly when I player gets in on the second or third try. It is what it is. That's the way things have evolved over the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 IMO, Palmeiro is without question a First Ballot Hall Of Famer. He's gotta be one of the most underrated players of all time, this thread kind of proves that. He was both a devastating hitter and an elite defender. 3000 hits ain't no joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 QUOTE(hammerhead johnson @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 09:30 AM) IMO, Palmeiro is without question a First Ballot Hall Of Famer. He's gotta be one of the most underrated players of all time, this thread kind of proves that. He was both a devastating hitter and an elite defender. 3000 hits ain't no joke. No one knows what will happen so maybe we should get off our high horses.. :rolly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlackSox8 Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/...irst_ballot_ap/ here's a list of all 1st ballot hall of famers. Only a couple I see not being in the all-time great catergory.....there are a couple all-time greats that probably didn't make it their first time. It all depends on opinions of the people voting at the time....obviously in the past it wouldn't take as much stats as it does now to get voted in because they were just starting the hall.....determining the cut-offs so to speak at those times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 QUOTE(Steff @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 09:37 AM) No one knows what will happen so maybe we should get off our high horses.. :rolly This is the second time you've alluded to one of my posts in another thread in the last two days. I'm flattered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 12:04 PM) This is the second time you've alluded to one of my posts in another thread in the last two days. I'm flattered Sarcasm and silly posts should be recognized.. they help pass the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 QUOTE(YASNY @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 09:05 AM) It is what it is. That's the way things have evolved over the years. It's one of the sillier things that has happened. I understand the sentiment, but it really is silly. The guystopped playing, he hasn't improved any. At some point a voter says, I didn't think he was good enough these past two years, now he is? Silly and pointless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 Don't know how much any of you value Steve Stone's opinion but tonight he called Palmeiro a "slam dunk first ballot HOF'er". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 QUOTE(Texsox @ Jul 20, 2005 -> 01:01 PM) It's one of the sillier things that has happened. I understand the sentiment, but it really is silly. The guystopped playing, he hasn't improved any. At some point a voter says, I didn't think he was good enough these past two years, now he is? Silly and pointless. The whole process is somewhat silly. Not only do you have the first ballot thing, but there has never been a unanimous pick for the hall. I really don't see how that happens. Who the hell decided not to vote for guys like Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, or Ted Williams? Palmeiro has been a solid player for a long time, and he should be in. But I'm not so sure about the first ballot thing. I think enough people will look at the 3000/500 milestones and vote for him the first time around. Raw statistics seem to rule, meaning I think he'll get in first ballot, although I probably wouldn't if I had a vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 Well, there goes my first ballot argument. Palmeiro suspended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Jul 19, 2005 -> 10:55 AM) I'm huge on the steroid speculation (as you've seen), and I believe that Palmeiro was on them. Haha, score one for the Milkman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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