Adkins coming?

[Harry Chappas]

Shingo is not a "long" reliever.  Adkins can give us 5 or 6 innings if we need someone to eat innings. Baj was mentioned as a long man earlier, yet he's been a closer all season, so he wouldn't qualify for that role either.

 

How does Hermanson getting hurt require getting a long reliever? I would think that we would try to get Shingo back in order if we need a closer rather than try to create one with Jenks, Marte, Cotts, Polittee , etc. Of these guys Shingo has the experience for this the rest have failed in this capacity without ever having success. Do not mess with what they are doing well.

 

Will he get the job done? Who knows but he has done it previously. Put Hermanson on the DL reinstate Shingo and go from there. In two weeks see what happens. This makes more sense that Jenks, Adkins, Baj etc.

[Guest JimH]

Jenks isnt ready to close yet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is exactly what they'll try to find out. They may have him throw in the 6th or 7th or 8th innings for now but his future is clearly in the 9th.

[Guest JimH]

How does Hermanson getting hurt require getting a long reliever?  I would think that we would try to get Shingo back in order if we need a closer rather than try to create one with Jenks, Marte, Cotts, Polittee , etc.  Of these guys Shingo has the experience for this the rest have failed in this capacity without ever having success.  Do not mess with what they are doing well. 

 

Will he get the job done?  Who knows but he has done it previously.  Put Hermanson on the DL reinstate Shingo and go from there.  In two weeks see what happens.  This makes more sense that Jenks, Adkins, Baj etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Shingo is not coming back, I don't know how else to put it, but he's not coming back. They cannot just reinstate him.

 

I am not a big fan of Adkins but he is more versatile, he can give you multiple innings if necessary. Just because the Sox haven't had too many garbage innings doesn't mean they won't. They have needed a rubber arm guy in the pen for a while and if they'd had one, they might've been able to let McCarthy settle in at AAA instead of bouncing him back and forth.

 

For better or worse, Jenks is a guy they like, he provides a different look than anyone else they have in the pen and he clearly has the potential to be dominant. 13 game lead, two weeks before the deadline = perfect opportunity to let him get his feet wet and show what he's got.

[YASNY]

How does Hermanson getting hurt require getting a long reliever?  I would think that we would try to get Shingo back in order if we need a closer rather than try to create one with Jenks, Marte, Cotts, Polittee , etc.  Of these guys Shingo has the experience for this the rest have failed in this capacity without ever having success.  Do not mess with what they are doing well. 

 

Will he get the job done?  Who knows but he has done it previously.  Put Hermanson on the DL reinstate Shingo and go from there.  In two weeks see what happens.  This makes more sense that Jenks, Adkins, Baj etc.

 

I'd take my chances with any of those four as the closer before Shingo. In the AL Central, Shingo is done. They've seen him too many times.

[Cerbaho-WG]

Adkins BAA .308

Bajenaru BAA .191

 

If Adkins gets called up over Bajenaru and I'm Jeff, I start demanding for a trade. There is no way Adkins should ever see the bigs again, period.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Shingo is not a "long" reliever.  Adkins can give us 5 or 6 innings if we need someone to eat innings. Baj was mentioned as a long man earlier, yet he's been a closer all season, so he wouldn't qualify for that role either.

If Adkins is up and used for 5 or 6 innings we won't be looking at a "win" that day.

 

----

 

I brought it up before (kinda) in another thread, there's another reason for Adkins' ineffectiveness besides the 'working on a new pitch' line.

 

CoughcoughvelocitydropcoughCough.

 

I don't know what he's throwing lately, but back when school was still in session, I was getting reports of noticable drop in velocity compared to last year. Read into that what you will. From the 2002 AFL:

http://www.minorleaguewatch.com/AZFall/fin-02alc.html

Jon Adkins (P) was acquired from Oakland in the Ray Durham trade. He pitched much better in AAA after moving to the White Sox organization, probably benefiting most from a move out of the hitter-friendly Pacific Coast League. The 25-year-old right-hander is a soft-tossing control pitcher. He got hit hard in the AFL (.349 OBA), but walked only seven batters in 36 IPs. There are plenty of better pitchers ahead of him in the Chicago system, so a return to AAA is likely ...

 

Adkins was throwing a 91-93 MPH fastball with tons of movement last season. I haven't heard anything since May, but that pitch was replaced by and 88-89 MPH straightball, according to what I've heard.

 

It could have changed since then. I'm just laying out the anecdotal evidence for all to see. Draw your own conclusions. Make your own accusations. I'm done on the subject.

[Milkman delivers]

If Adkins is up and used for 5 or 6 innings we won't be looking at a "win" that day.

 

----

 

I brought it up before (kinda) in another thread, there's another reason for Adkins' ineffectiveness besides the 'working on a new pitch' line.

 

CoughcoughvelocitydropcoughCough.

 

I don't know what he's throwing lately, but back when school was still in session, I was getting reports of noticable drop in velocity compared to last year. Read into that what you will. From the 2002 AFL:

http://www.minorleaguewatch.com/AZFall/fin-02alc.html

Adkins was throwing a 91-93 MPH fastball with tons of movement last season. I haven't heard anything since May, but that pitch was replaced by and 88-89 MPH straightball, according to what I've heard.

 

It could have changed since then. I'm just laying out the anecdotal evidence for all to see. Draw your own conclusions. Make your own accusations. I'm done on the subject.

 

McCarthyism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Soxbadger]

I know Shingo is not coming back, but how can you say the Al Central owned him.

 

He was untouchable versus the Royals and Tigers, and mediocre versus Indians and Twins.

 

In 2004, he was awesome against all of them.

 

It means at worst half the Al Central had success, and the teams that he pitched the most innings against, the Royals and Tigers he had the most success against.

 

Ozzie did not like him for whatever reason, but as I said in another thread take out 1/4 of his outtings and his era is drastically lower. A few bad outings from a rp and their whole era gets out of whack.

 

And if Hermanson goes down with no Shingo to replace him, I have a bad feeling.

 

I think from here on out you will see Hermanson used sparingly.

 

And why do we need to test Jenks at the MLB level? Hes coming off an injury, should we not test him at AAA first, and if he is lights out then test him at MLB?

 

Kind of seems backwards to me.

 

SB

Edited July 19, 2005 by Soxbadger

[WHarris1]

He was untouchable versus the Royals and Tigers, and mediocre versus Indians and Twins.

[Milkman delivers]

take out 1/4 of his outtings and his era is drastically lower.

 

Oh, come on. Take away 1/4 of his outings?! Really, I can understand saying "take away 1 outing," but 1/4? Take away a fourth of almost any pitcher's outings, and they'll probably look good.

[Soxbadger]

Milkman,

 

Okay lets take out just his worst outing:

 

His new era is 5.

 

If we take out his 2 worst outings, his new era is 4.16

 

If you take out 3 of his worst outings, his era is 3.5

 

Now take into account, 2 of his 3 worst outings were when he pitched over 1 inning. 2 of those 3 were against the same team. And the last of the bad outings was in a game during mop up duty.

 

::Shrugs::

 

Once again, outside of 5 appearances, Shingo was good. And when he did fail, it was generally because Ozzie put him in a position to fail.

 

SB

 

(All of these numbers are slightly rounded)

[3E8]

Okay lets take out just his worst outing:

 

His new era is 5.

 

If we take out his 2 worst outings, his new era is 4.16

 

If you take out 3 of his worst outings, his era is 3.5

 

(All of these numbers are slightly rounded)

Did you round up?

 

I got 4.88, then 4.00, then 3.08.

[Soxbadger]

Yeah I rounded to make the numbers worse.

 

And by rounding I meant I rounded part of the equation for getting era, the innings per 9 part, so that gives funky results.

 

But as you can see, taking out 2 appearances versus Indians, and 1 versus the Rangers, and Shingo has been solid.

 

SB

[GoodAsGould]

You can take out multiple bad outings from any pitcher and make them look good. The only reason people dont really count vizcaino's 1 bad outing is because he was the last person left in the bullpen and left out there to rot.

[beck72]

If they bring up Adkins instead of Baj, that tells me one of two things.

 

1.  The Sox do not think Baj is the real deal.

2.  They think that Adkins ability to pitch more innings will be more useful.

Adkins would be the long man in the 'pen, moving Viz to the set up. It's basically who do the sox want as the set up man--Viz or Baj. Adkins would see mop up duty

[Soxbadger]

People always discount bad outings by relief pitchers, especially when it is the managers decision that causes the subsequent bad outing.

 

The Texas game was a blow out.

 

The 2 Indian game's he was poorly used, over 1 ip in both situations.

 

Vizcaino was poorly used in his 6 er game against the Indians.

 

But to say that teams who saw him the most often did the best, is not reflected in the statistics.

 

Ozzie lost confidence, we shall see how it pans out.

 

SB

[Guest JimH]

People always discount bad outings by relief pitchers, especially when it is the managers decision that causes the subsequent bad outing.

 

The Texas game was a blow out.

 

The 2 Indian game's he was poorly used, over 1 ip in both situations.

 

Vizcaino was poorly used in his 6 er game against the Indians.

 

But to say that teams who saw him the most often did the best, is not reflected in the statistics.

 

Ozzie lost confidence, we shall see how it pans out.

 

SB

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You're blaming Ozzie Guillen for Shingo getting knocked around?

 

That's one of the bigger stretches I've seen on this site in a while.

 

If Shingo is just a one inning pitcher, that's not what the White Sox need from the 11th guy on the staff, they need more flexibility.

 

How about this, maybe the Sox need to get better players?

[Soxbadger]

I agree if giving up Shingo meant a better player.

 

The White Sox could not use him in the role that he was best suited.

 

And I think Ozzie could have done more to promote Shingo's value.

 

SB

[Guest JimH]

I agree if giving up Shingo meant a better player.

 

The White Sox could not use him in the role that he was best suited.

 

And I think Ozzie could have done more to promote Shingo's value.

 

SB

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ozzie's job is to win ballgames and not play favorites. Whether he does that with consistency is open to debate, but it's not his job to promote Shingo's value. It's Shingo's job to promote his value.

[Soxbadger]

Shingo's value is increases when he has success. A playing being successful means that they are playing well.

 

I think that it is Ozzie's job to get his players to play the best they possibly can. And it is Ozzie's job to put players in the best situations so that they can succeed.

 

If Ozzie hurt his value, it means that he did poorly, which hurts the White Sox.

 

But I also think Ozzie seriously mishandles his bullpen at times, so Shingo is just part of a much bigger equation.

 

SB

[Guest JimH]

Shingo's value is increases when he has success. A playing being successful means that they are playing well.

 

I think that it is Ozzie's job to get his players to play the best they possibly can. And it is Ozzie's job to put players in the best situations so that they can succeed.

 

If Ozzie hurt his value, it means that he did poorly, which hurts the White Sox.

 

But I also think Ozzie seriously mishandles his bullpen at times, so Shingo is just part of a much bigger equation.

 

SB

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't know, the way I look at it the team is well into 1st place and here we are nitpicking how a guy has handled the bullpen. I tend to put more blame on the performances between the lines, i have no loyalty to the players, only to the team and the results. Not saying you do but I am more callous about some of these situations. Shingo didn't get the job done and he would likely be the first to tell you he is disappointed in his own performance.

 

Jenks, tonite, showed he has real promise. The hits notwithstanding, I can see why the Sox picked him up and why they want to give him a shot.

[Chisoxfn]

The Jenks call was the right call. However, if the Sox call up Jon Adkins before they call up Jeff Bajenaru I'll be sick to my stomach. No iffs ands or butts. Adkins isn't any good and doesn't deserve the spot as much as Baj.

 

Still Adkins will get the spot because Ozzie likes giving jobs to people he's familiar with or more so (Not saying thats a negative, but its the way he tends to go about things).

[YASNY]

Shingo's value is increases when he has success. A playing being successful means that they are playing well.

 

I think that it is Ozzie's job to get his players to play the best they possibly can. And it is Ozzie's job to put players in the best situations so that they can succeed.

 

If Ozzie hurt his value, it means that he did poorly, which hurts the White Sox.

 

But I also think Ozzie seriously mishandles his bullpen at times, so Shingo is just part of a much bigger equation.

 

SB

 

Ozzie seriously mishandles the bullpen. Let's examine that statement.

 

To start the season we had this setup.

Closer - Takatsu

setup - Marte and Hermanson

Cotts, Pollitte and Vizcaino to fill in the rest

 

Now lets look at what has transpired.

 

Closer: Takatsu was getting his ass handed to him and was very ineffective. Even though, he was in a role that he had succeeded in last year and Ozzie game him the first opp to nail down the closer's role this year. So, Ozzie allowed someone else to earn the spot. Turns out to be Hermanson. 22 of 23. Not too bad.

 

Setup. Hermanson evacuated from role. Marte wasn't all that effective. So, what we have is that our top three bullpen slots are not going as planned. That spells potential disaster. What happens? He throws Cotts, Pollite and Vizcaino into the mix to let the cream rise to the top. Used guys in the best situations for them to succeed and removed them after suucceed, therfore building their confidence. Cotts and Pollitte step up and kick ass. Shingo and Vizcaino slowly sink to the bottom of the pen. Marte, it turns out was injured, so they DL him, give Walker a shot. He sucks and they boot him. Vizcaino begins to come around. Shingo shows signs of it, but too often falters. He sinks to a mop up role as 36 yr old FA to be. Not much future in that. In the mean time, we have this kid in AA throwing serious heat with a biting breaking ball that is performing in a closers role. There MAY be a future in that. No brainer. Dump the old, soon to depart, ineffective guy and give the kid a shot.

 

He took a bullpen that had to be revamped as to what roles each pitcher held. He shuffled them around and eventually turned it from a potentially disasterous bullpen to one of the best in game.

 

Conclusion: Ozzie mismanages the bullpen.

[Soxbadger]

There is a difference between over all changing of players, and using the bullpen in each and every game.

 

But Ozzie did not mismanage the bullpen today.

 

 

(Hope you can see the sarcasm)

 

SB

[YASNY]

There is a difference between over all changing of players, and using the bullpen in each and every game.

 

But Ozzie did not mismanage the bullpen today.

 

 

(Hope you can see the sarcasm)

 

SB

 

Granted, Ozzie makes decisions within the frame of a game that I find questionable. Yet, he does not have the luxury of managing just for today. He has to take chances and give guys to opportunity to succeed, or fail, to what they can and can't do. He has to find the right niche for them. To find the right niche, he has to hit a few wrong niches as well. It's all about the big picture. Ozzie has done a masterful job with the pen this year.