7/21 Game Thread - BoSox vs. ChiSox

[whitesoxmanager]

QUOTE(JimH @ Jul 21, 2005 -> 08:48 PM)

Fathom, tell me you put or leave Neal Cotts in to face Manny Ramirez.  I can see the argument for Hermanson perhaps, or even Jenks vs. Vizcaino.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

i liked the move to leave Vizcaino in the game for several reasons:

1. he has been very good lately gaining confidence and actually looking pretty tough...he is just about to turn the corner on the guy the Sox expected to get

2. maybe he is going to be a part of a trade and the Sox are showcasing him

3. hermy is coming off an injury

4. righty vs righty matchups

5. 4 game series dont necessarily use the closer in non save opps

 

question now is do you go back to Vizcaino tomorrow in the same situation????

[The Ginger Kid]

f*** Comcast and their question about who would you rather not see the Sox face in the playoffs?  I absolutely can't stand the feeling I get that some people in the organization think it's a guarantee we'll make the playoffs.

 

a little frustrating, isn't it?

 

Tommy Lasorda was on the radio out here this afternoon talking about, who else, the Dodgers, and told the story of 1982 how they made up 7 games in 8 days.

 

I'm not saying the Sox are slumping or even hitting a bump, but if they are then I hope they get it out of their system over the next week or so and then get back on track. I hate to say it, but every team hits bumps. Ozzie's been preaching it all season.

[Frankensteiner]

Fathom ... go back to right before it happened and please show me your post where you call for Cotts to be brought in to face Manny Ramirez.  Damned easy to say you would've done it after the game is over.

 

If Cotts had screwed up you'd have a whole Ozzie Sucks thread going on right now, admit it.

 

C'mon.

 

BTW, if you're saying that Cotts was a bad idea against Ramirez because of the lefty/righty matchup, then how was Vizcaino facing Ortiz a good idea earlier in the inning? Cotts should have started the inning, no questions about it.

[fathom]

i liked the move to leave Vizcaino in the game for several reasons:

1.  he has been very good lately gaining confidence and actually looking pretty tough...he is just about to turn the corner on the guy the Sox expected to get

2.  maybe he is going to be a part of a trade and the Sox are showcasing him

3.  hermy is coming off an injury

4.  righty vs righty matchups

5.  4 game series dont necessarily use the closer in non save opps

 

question now is do you go back to Vizcaino tomorrow in the same situation????

 

First, Manny is so much better against rhp. Also, the other two hitters that inning were lefty batters. Vizcaino is a pitcher who has problems with the long ball. He absolutely can't be trusted in a tie game like that against terrific hitters. And why does everyone think that every player on the Sox is being showcased for a trade? I love trade rumors just as much as the next guy, but Viz is going nowhere.

[3E8]

2.  maybe he is going to be a part of a trade and the Sox are showcasing him

I was thinking the same thing. Why should we let the outcome of our season get in the way of showcasing Luis Vizcaino to a couple scouts? The answer is we shouldn't.

[whitesoxmanager]

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 21, 2005 -> 08:57 PM)

First, Manny is so much better against rhp.  Also, the other two hitters that inning were lefty batters.  Vizcaino is a pitcher who has problems with the long ball.  He absolutely can't be trusted in a tie game like that against terrific hitters.  And why does everyone think that every player on the Sox is being showcased for a trade?  I love trade rumors just as much as the next guy, but Viz is going nowhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Vizcaino is better than Baldwin and he ended up going to Texas today, no? This game is really about confidence and execution. Getting Vizcaino to believe in himself and his stuff is exactly what Ozzie was attempting to do tonight. He really has done a tremendous job for us lately. Ozzie was trying to build on that! He was so close to sitting in the dugout and hearing from all his teammates...great job man...you just got Ortiz & Manny out...you are the man!

[fathom]

Vizcaino is better than Baldwin and he ended up going to Texas today, no?  This game is really about confidence and execution.  Getting Vizcaino to believe in himself and his stuff is exactly what Ozzie was attempting to do tonight.  He really has done a tremendous job for us lately.  Ozzie was trying to build on that!  He was so close to sitting in the dugout and hearing from all his teammates...great job man...you just got Ortiz & Manny out...you are the man!

 

Thanks, I needed a good laugh. Vizcaino threw a f***ing meatball to one of the best hitters in baseball history. That confidence in Viz sure looked strong as he walked off the field with his head down.

[whitesoxmanager]

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 21, 2005 -> 08:57 PM)

First, Manny is so much better against rhp.  Also, the other two hitters that inning were lefty batters.  Vizcaino is a pitcher who has problems with the long ball.  He absolutely can't be trusted in a tie game like that against terrific hitters.  And why does everyone think that every player on the Sox is being showcased for a trade?  I love trade rumors just as much as the next guy, but Viz is going nowhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ortiz lefty

Manny righty

Varitek righty

Millar righty

 

no?

[Guest JimH]

Vs. RH

Cotts - .133 AVG/.496 OPS

Vizcaino - .240 AVG/.676 OPS

 

Based on those numbers, I guess only a lowly message board poster would think Cotts is better against right handed hitters. Your assumption that every LHP is automatically tougher against lefties is frustrating, but looks to coincide with Ozzie's way of thinking. Whatever, you obviously did a good job explaining your point by simply s***ting on me.

 

And how is it a 2nd guess to want to have the better pitcher pitching in that situation?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well I didn't s*** on you, I simply called you out for what you are ... a major league 2nd guesser.

 

And I stand by it.

 

You would've been the first one to jump up and down and scream if Cotts had been brought in and something bad happened with Ramirez. Don't admit it if you don't want to, fine by me.

 

Show me where you called for Cotts to be brought in to pitch to Ramirez in the game thread.

 

Who here called for Cotts to be brought in to specifically pitch to Ramirez?

[SoxFan1]

Ortiz lefty

Manny righty

Varitek righty

Millar righty

 

no?

Lefty

Right

Switch

????

[Guest JimH]

I didn't say I wanted Cotts (to be honest, I thought he had pitched already while I was at work), but I definitely stated my opinion that I didn't think Viz would keep it in the park against those hitters.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Fair enough, so your position is "not Vizcaino" vs. "they should have brought in Cotts to face Ramirez". I completely understand the frustration with Vizcaino, which is why I said I would like to see them get a better pitcher, and quickly followed that up by saying it will be tough because probably 20 other teams are looking for bullpen help.

[WHarris1]

That. f***ing. Sucked.

[WHarris1]

I'm not really gonna blame Crede, his error sucked but that does not give Viz the right to throw one of the biggest meatballs in baseball this year.

[whitesoxmanager]

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 21, 2005 -> 09:07 PM)

Thanks, I needed a good laugh.  Vizcaino threw a f***ing meatball to one of the best hitters in baseball history.  That confidence in Viz sure looked strong as he walked off the field with his head down.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

All of us in life get down, it is how we get back up that is important.

[Guest JimH]

i liked the move to leave Vizcaino in the game for several reasons:

1.  he has been very good lately gaining confidence and actually looking pretty tough...he is just about to turn the corner on the guy the Sox expected to get

2.  maybe he is going to be a part of a trade and the Sox are showcasing him

3.  hermy is coming off an injury

4.  righty vs righty matchups

5.  4 game series dont necessarily use the closer in non save opps

 

question now is do you go back to Vizcaino tomorrow in the same situation????

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, yours are good points, don't know that I totally agree with all of them but I see where you're coming from.

 

What I would not do is have Vizcaino face Manny Ramirez in a game tying or game winning situation in the 8th or 9th inning, in direct response to your last point. He did not get the job done tonite and I can't see doing the same thing again tomorrow. Ramirez will torch just about everybody at one time or another, but if I can I try to have him face Politte or Jenks because Politte can spot pitches better than Vizcaino and Ramirez has not seen Jenks' curveball.

 

Plus, we need to find out more about Jenks anyways. I think it's pretty well established what we have in Vizcaino ... an inconsistent guy who gives up his fair share of big hits at bad times, and also shows he can go for a 2 week stretch of pitching fairly well. And all in all, that is not good enough.

Edited July 22, 2005 by JimH

[Guest JimH]

BTW, if you're saying that Cotts was a bad idea against Ramirez because of the lefty/righty matchup, then how was Vizcaino facing Ortiz a good idea earlier in the inning? Cotts should have started the inning, no questions about it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ortiz torches lefthanders this year, where's your numbers on that?

[fathom]

You don't know how many times I've seen Viz s*** the bed like that in late inning situations against the Cubs. The man gave up like 5 walk-off homers to the Cubs, it seems like.

[fathom]

Ortiz torches lefthanders this year, where's your numbers on that?

 

Ortiz has a lot more power against RHP than he does LHP.

[Guest JimH]

Ortiz has a lot more power against RHP than he does LHP.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The point stands. Lefthanders are getting torched by Ortiz. Numbers work both ways.

 

It appears Frankensteiner cannot find his post calling for Cotts to be brought in to face Ramirez. It also appears he does not deny he'd be 2nd guessing Ozzie and calling for his head had Cotts come on and given up the lead run that inning.

 

What that means to me is, we have a classic case of 2nd guessing. Which is very easy to do.

[Guest JimH]

Whatever. Picking Viz over anybody else in that pen when the game is on the line is laughable to say the very least.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Whatever.

 

I see you have trouble keeping your word. I'm not surprised. Remember I'm not the one who decided to respond to your post, it was the other way around.

 

I'm stating it again, don't respond to my posts, you are attempting to start something with me and I don't appreciate it.

[Dick Allen]

On the board tonight it said Vizcaino had an 0.60 ERA his last 10 outings. He gave up zero earned runs tonight. He had to get Manny Ramirez out twice after Joe Crede decided to look cool and do a little flip of his glove and dropped the ball. Most pitchers have had enough problems getting Ramirez out once in that situation. If people have a problem with Vizcaino tonight, they should also have a problem with Buerhle tonight, he coughed up some unearned runs as well. Boston is not the team you want to start kicking the ball around against.

[whitesoxmanager]

QUOTE(JimH @ Jul 21, 2005 -> 09:15 PM)

Well, yours are good points, don't know that I totally agree with all of them but I see where you're coming from.

 

What I would not do is have Vizcaino face Manny Ramirez in a game tying or game winning situation in the 8th or 9th inning, in direct response to your last point.  He did not get the job done tonite and I can't see doing the same thing again tomorrow.  Ramirez will torch just about everybody at one time or another, but if I can I try to have him face Politte or Jenks because Politte can spot pitches better than Vizcaino and Ramirez has not seen Jenks' curveball.

 

Plus, we need to find out more about Jenks anyways.  I think it's pretty well established what we have in Vizcaino ... an inconsistent guy who gives up his fair share of big hits at bad times, and also shows he can go for a 2 week stretch of pitching fairly well.  And all in all, that is not good enough.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree with most of what you say except you are not realizing that Vizcaino is a young 21 year old with potential upside....http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6291/ he had given up only one earned run in the last 12 innings pitched spanning a month....

 

He couldve mailed it in after his performance early in the year...he has showed me that he has some toughness and confidence in himself and was perhaps beginning to turn the corner.

Edited July 22, 2005 by whitesoxmanager

[qwerty]

When did they cut years off of vizcaino's age?

Edited July 22, 2005 by qwerty

[Guest JimH]

I agree with most of what you say except you are not realizing that Vizcaino is a young 21 year old with potential upside....http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6291/  he had given up only one earned run in the last 12 innings pitched spanning a month....

 

He couldve mailed it in after his performance early in the year...he has showed me that he has some toughness and confidence in himself and was perhaps beginning to turn the corner.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Check the stats again, Viz is going on 32.

[Guest JimH]

On the board tonight it said Vizcaino had an 0.60 ERA his last 10 outings. He gave up zero earned runs tonight. He had to get Manny Ramirez out twice after Joe Crede decided to look cool and do a little flip of his glove and dropped the ball. Most pitchers have had enough problems getting Ramirez out once in that situation. If people have a problem with Vizcaino tonight, they should also have a problem with Buerhle tonight, he coughed up some unearned runs as well. Boston is not the team you want to start kicking the ball around against.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is what I call fair and balanced criticism, good post IMO.

 

It was still a gawdawful pitch to Ramirez but your points are well taken.