NYC Random Bag Search

[YASNY]

For all those who are bothered by hightened security I only have 4 words.

GET USED TO IT.

Get used to being searched at random. 

 

Get used seeing heavily armed police in public spaces.

 

Get used seeing canine patrols.

 

Get used to it all because problems such as suicide bombings, random shootings and kidnappings are no longer something you hear about going on in someplace like Isreal or Beirut or Baghdad, it's coming and its coming to a city near you.

 

So ... At what point do we stop accepting it and say that's enough?

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

So ... At what point do we stop accepting it and say that's enough?

 

 

I don't know where the line is but clearly we are not going far enough as things stand now. It's not hard to see though that the type of terrorism that Isreal has been dealing with for decades is making it's way westward and they are the very best at dealing with it. Perhaps we should use them as a template.

[CubKilla]

So ... At what point do we stop accepting it and say that's enough?

 

The Supreme Court, especially the Supreme Court here in Illinois, has laid out stringent search and detainment rules when dealing with people's cars, houses, garages, sheds, and the like.

 

Less stringent search ONLY rules apply to public venues, subways, planes, buses, etc. If someone is detained subsequent to a criminal investigation, WHO IS A CITIZEN OF THIS COUNTRY (and most cops follow the same set of rules when dealing with non-citizens too), resulting from these less stringent searches, the same detainment rules apply.

Edited July 22, 2005 by CubKilla

[YASNY]

The Supreme Court, especially the Supreme Court here in Illinois, has laid out stringent search and detainment rules when dealing with people's cars, houses, garages, sheds, and the like.

 

Less stringent search ONLY rules apply to public venues, subways, planes, buses, etc. If someone is detained subsequent to a criminal investigation, WHO IS A CITIZEN OF THIS COUNTRY, resulting from these less stringent searches, the same detainment rules apply.

 

Thank you. That's good info.

[southsider2k5]

So ... At what point do we stop accepting it and say that's enough?

 

This is the question you have to ask yourself. Are you willing to die because you don't want your bag searched in the morning, before getting on your train?

 

Essentially it comes down to how much do you believe in your right to privacy? Do you believe in it enough to let someone else kill you, while taking advantage of the holes in our exsisting system?

[jackie hayes]

Essentially it comes down to how much do you believe in your right to privacy?  Do you believe in it enough to let someone else kill you, while taking advantage of the holes in our exsisting system?

No, I don't think it's a question of "how much...you believe". It's a question of how far you believe that right should go. I feel very strongly that privacy is important, but I believe that when I'm using a resource that belongs to a private company (airplane) or the public (subway, crowded space) I make an agreement (sometimes implicit) with the owner. My privacy still exists, I just make a choice to reveal something, which is always my right. But when I'm in my home, I would be no less ticked to find a camera -- I don't 'believe less' in my right to privacy.

[southsider2k5]

No, I don't think it's a question of "how much...you believe".  It's a question of how far you believe that right should go.  I feel very strongly that privacy is important, but I believe that when I'm using a resource that belongs to a private company (airplane) or the public (subway, crowded space) I make an agreement (sometimes implicit) with the owner.  My privacy still exists, I just make a choice to reveal something, which is always my right.  But when I'm in my home, I would be no less ticked to find a camera -- I don't 'believe less' in my right to privacy.

 

When you interpret it that way, I agree with you actually. Many people don't see that their privacy has any ends, and therefore should never be subject to searches without search warrents.

[Texsox]

The terrorists have won.

We're scared, we'll change our way of life because of you. We'll give up anything if you'll let us live.

[GoodAsGould]

This random checking crap is bulls***. Just because the color of my skin is brown ill get stopped while rest of my friends wont. Even though I lived my whole life in America and my mom is white. when we travel out of country and come back I get put to a seperate section where they individually ask me what business I had going to another country. Hell on my last trip they even pulled the brown flight attendents aside and asked them questions...

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

The terrorists have won.

We're scared, we'll change our way of life because of you. We'll give up anything if you'll let us live.

 

 

Ok fine Tex. Lets stop screening bags at Airports, stop screening cargo at the ports, open up the borders and remove all checkpoints on our side, disband the CIA and FBI. Having all that around just tells people that we're scared and that we'll give up anything if terrorists let us live.

 

I really tried to make a statement as asinine as yours which probably just rolled off your tounge and I think I still came up short.

 

 

:rolly

[KipWellsFan]

Al-Qaeda is kicking Bush's ass.

[Texsox]

Ok fine Tex.  Lets stop screening bags at Airports, stop screening cargo at the ports, open up the borders and remove all checkpoints on our side, disband the CIA and FBI.  Having all that around just tells people that we're scared and that we'll give up anything if terrorists let us live.

 

I really tried to make a statement as asinine as yours which probably just rolled off your tounge and I think I still came up short.

:rolly

 

LOL Perhaps you've been living in the military too long to remember real life.

 

So we aren't changing our way of life? Of course we are. Give up freedoms instead of getting blown up. We have changed and are willing to give up any rights and liberties. Read this thread. Random searches where we use to not have any. And this is in response to what? The terrorists in London. They f***ing won. They got us to change our life and live in fear.

 

I stand by my statement. The terrorists have won. They have struck terror into our lives and changed America. I'm not saying that it isn't the correct path to take. We probably had too many freedoms.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Al-Qaeda is kicking Bush's ass.

 

 

Is that why the Taliban is recruiting children to face off against US troops?

 

LOL!

 

:rolly

[KipWellsFan]

This thread is just one bit of proof on that argument. Many in this thread are conceding that there is going to be another terrorist attack and I believe most of these people were Bush voters and I believe Bush was the one who said something to the effect of we're fighting in Iraq so we fight them there not on our own turf. Not to mention how much Al-Qaeda has grown and been legitimized as a real organization since Bush took over. Bush has started a War which can and will never be won the way it's currently being fought and extremists are loving it.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

LOL  Perhaps you've been living in the military too long to remember real life.

 

So we aren't changing our way of life?  Of course we are. Give up freedoms instead of getting blown up. We have changed and are willing to give up any rights and liberties. Read this thread. Random searches where we use to not have any. And this is in response to what? The terrorists in London. They f***ing won. They got us to change our life and live in fear.

 

I stand by my statement. The terrorists have won. They have struck terror into our lives and changed America. I'm not saying that it isn't the correct path to take. We probably had too many freedoms.

 

 

WRONG

 

WRONG

 

WRONG!!!

 

Bin Laden himself has admitted that he cannot hope to defeat us on the field of battle so his aim is to destroy the economies of the west. Those are his words. What happened after the London attacks? Oh yeah the stock markets of the US and Britain went straight up.

 

God forbid we take measures to meet a new threat BEFORE it hits us or Tex will start whining about his rights are being stripped. Then you're the same ones who whine that the Government hasnt done enough to protect us after the fact. f***ing hypocrasy.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

This thread is just one bit of proof on that argument.  Many in this thread are conceding that there is going to be another terrorist attack and I believe most of these people were Bush voters and I believe Bush was the one who said something to the effect of we're fighting in Iraq so we fight them there not on our own turf.  Not to mention how much Al-Qaeda has grown and been legitimized as a real organization since Bush took over.  Bush has started a War which can and will never be won the way it's currently being fought and extremists are loving it.

 

 

Wrong

 

 

Again. God forbid we take measures to protect ourselves. Just because we are fighting terrorists overseas doesn't mean that we stop taking precautions to prevent attacks here. :rolly

 

Al Quada has been driven underground and its membership decimated by fighting with US and coalition forces. Those in leadership positions are being killed or captured at a steady rate, their foot soldiers are either being shot down or locked up in Guantanamo and they, in desperation, are turning to children to fight their battles for them.

 

http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/arti...iting_children/

[KipWellsFan]

What the heck. The taliban is not Al-Qaeda they are allies. You switched the word Taliban for Al-Qaeda

 

In 1996, the Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden moved to Afghanistan upon the invitation of the Northern Alliance leader Abdur Rabb ur Rasool Sayyaf. When the Taliban came to power, bin Laden was able to forge an alliance between the Taliban and his Al-Qaeda organization. It is understood that Al Qaeda-trained fighters known as the 055 Brigade were integrated with the Taliban army between 1997 and 2001. The generally accepted view in the West is that the Taliban and bin Laden had very close connections

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban

 

Also interesting that the United States ally Northern Alliance brought Osama there in the first place.

 

 

Please refer to my thread where 2 independent studies concluded that the War in Iraq has given Al-Qaeda a boost. To me the suggestion that the War on Terror is already harming Al-Qaeda seems completely unfounded.

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=37165

 

Oh and I never said anything about the measures the US has taken on their own grounds. Americans have chose to live like that, that's their choice. But it's not just security in the lives of Americans that the terrorists have changed, just for example I swear it seems that almost half the time the word TERROR is part of the headline on CNN. Instead of talking about more important issues that actually have affect on most Americans, this is the always overlooked blow that terrorists have inflicted on ALL news following Americans.

Edited July 25, 2005 by KipWellsFan

[GoodAsGould]

Ok fine Tex.  Lets stop screening bags at Airports, stop screening cargo at the ports, open up the borders and remove all checkpoints on our side, disband the CIA and FBI.  Having all that around just tells people that we're scared and that we'll give up anything if terrorists let us live.

 

I really tried to make a statement as asinine as yours which probably just rolled off your tounge and I think I still came up short.

:rolly

 

 

Im not saying we shouldnt have stronger security in airports especially but racial profiling is wrong and shouldnt happen.

[Texsox]

Nuke, Nuke, Nuke :headshake

 

The terrorists bomb a subway in London, we start random searches on our subways. Police will roll up to bus stops and check people's bags. Cops will cruise the el-platforms and start checking random Americans. Anyone who wishes to ride NYC mass transit systems are now guilty until proven innocent by a bag check.

 

And you are saying the terrorists haven't won? Keep your head in your ass buddy while the government rewrites the constitution and keeps eroding our freedoms. If we give up all our freedoms, the terrorists can't take them away . Sorry, but as an American I am quite proud of our constitution and the rights and freedoms it allows. People want to take those rights and freedoms away, and they are winning.

 

I guess innocent until proven guilty and probable cause are parts of the constitution you don't believe in, and you support giving up. What other freedoms should we give up? The freedom to criticize the government (I guess only if it's a GOPernot), the freedom to assemble?

 

If they bomb a library in Liverpool, will we start inspecting bags at libraries?

If a bomb goes off on a crowded corner in Cairo, will be start bag searches on every crowded corner? Gas stations are an inviting target, will we need security at all gas stations? Is being guilty until proven innocent the price we will pay to be in public? If they use a gun, will we confiscate all the guns? Ohhh, let's not go there when the NRA supports so many GOPernots with my dues money.

 

Why do we have such security measures at airports? Hijackers in the 60's caused that. Before that is was just come on in. Again, reacting to the terrorists.

 

One goal of the terrorists was to change our way of life. They are achieving that goal and we are helping them.

 

But Nuke, to make you happy, I'll agree we are winning the war on terror and the terrorists are losing. Every time we take another step to secure our lives, we win. When the police have total power to search anyone within our borders at any time, for any reason, it will be our crowning achievement and total victory over terrorists.

[YASNY]

We need security.

 

We need to preserve our liberties.

 

Both are true statements. Somewhere in the middle is where this is going to land. It's a decision we all have to make as to what we give up, and what security lapses we accept.

[Mplssoxfan]

What's lost in all this is that the NYPD is never going to catch a suicide bomber by searching bags. If you are a suicide bomber and you are going to blow yourself up anyway, is a search going to stop you from doing it? No! You are going to detonate a little earlier, that's all.

 

The NYPD is, in general, doing a fantastic job deterring terrorists but this measure is both an immense intrusion on personal liberty and, ultimately, pointless.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Nuke, Nuke, Nuke  :headshake

 

The terrorists bomb a subway in London, we start random searches on our subways. Police will roll up to bus stops and check people's bags. Cops will cruise the el-platforms and start checking random Americans. Anyone who wishes to ride NYC mass transit systems are now guilty until proven innocent by a bag check.

 

And you are saying the terrorists haven't won?  Keep your head in your ass buddy while the government rewrites the constitution and keeps eroding our freedoms. If we give up all our freedoms, the terrorists can't take them away . Sorry, but as an American I am quite proud of our constitution and the rights and freedoms it allows. People want to take those rights and freedoms away, and they are winning.

 

I guess innocent until proven guilty and probable cause are parts of the constitution you don't believe in, and you support giving up. What other freedoms should we give up? The freedom to criticize the government (I guess only if it's a GOPernot), the freedom to assemble?

 

If they bomb a library in Liverpool, will we start inspecting bags at libraries?

If a bomb goes off on a crowded corner in Cairo, will be start bag searches on every crowded corner?  Gas stations are an inviting target, will we need security at all gas stations? Is being guilty until proven innocent the price we will pay to be in public? If they use a gun, will we confiscate all the guns? Ohhh, let's not go there when the NRA supports so many GOPernots with my dues money.

 

Why do we have such security measures at airports? Hijackers in the 60's caused that. Before that is was just come on in. Again, reacting to the terrorists.

 

One goal of the terrorists was to change our way of life. They are achieving that goal and we are helping them.

 

But Nuke, to make you happy, I'll agree we are winning the war on terror and the terrorists are losing. Every time we take another step to secure our lives, we win. When the police have total power to search anyone within our borders at any time, for any reason, it will be our crowning achievement and total victory over terrorists.

 

 

Again. You are a f***ing hypocrite. You go on and on about how the government is eroding our rights when they implement security measures but you are one of the first ones to say the government isin't doing enough to protect us from terrorism and if we have a mass transit attack where random inspections are not in place then you will b**** on and on about how the government failed to protect us.

 

Sorry Tex but you can't have it both ways.

 

What is your solution to keep the terrorists from winning? I want to hear the wise one tell us how to stop terrorism without tightening security.

 

( Bracing myself to laugh out loud )

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

What's lost in all this is that the NYPD is never going to catch a suicide bomber by searching bags.  If you are a suicide bomber and you are going to blow yourself up anyway, is a search going to stop you from doing it?  No!  You are going to detonate a little earlier, that's all.

 

The NYPD is, in general, doing a fantastic job deterring terrorists but this measure is both an immense intrusion on personal liberty and, ultimately, pointless.

 

 

I couldn't disagree with you more. Even though they aren't going to search every person carrying a bag they are going to be in a position to observe everybody who is entering the stations and they can react when they spot someone who is acting suspiciously.

[Controlled Chaos]

I'm not hiding anything...I have no problem with opening my bag for someone.

[CubKilla]

What is your solution to keep the terrorists from winning?  I want to hear the wise one tell us how to stop terrorism without tightening security. 

 

( Bracing myself to laugh out loud )

 

Do-dee-do-dee-do.....