NYC Random Bag Search

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Nuke and Killa, I highly doubt that you've read "Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism" but it is a good read.

 

http://antiwar.com/pat/

 

His book is drawn from an immense database on every suicide-bomb attack from 1980 to early 2004. Conclusion: The claim that 9/11 and the suicide bombings in Iraq are done to advance some jihad by "Islamofascists" against the West is not only unsubstantiated, it is hollow.

 

"Islamic fundamentalism is not as closely associated with suicide terrorism as many people think," Pape tells The American Conservative in its July 18 issue. Indeed, the world's leader in suicide terror was the Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka. This secular Marxist group "invented the famous suicide vest for their suicide assassination of Rajiv Ghandi in May 1991. The Palestinians got the idea of the vest from the Tamil Tigers."

 

But if the aim of suicide bombers is not to advance Islamism in a war of civilizations, what is its purpose? Pape's conclusion:

 

"uicide-terrorist attacks are not so much driven by religion as by a clear strategic objective: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland. From Lebanon to Sri Lanka to Chechnya to Kashmir to the West Bank, every major suicide terrorist campaign – over 95 percent of all incidents – has had as its central objective to compel a democratic state to withdraw."

 

The 9/11 terrorists were over here because we were over there. They are not trying to convert us. They are killing us to drive us out of their countries.

 

There is more at the link.

 

When people like Brig. General William Looney state: "[iraqis] know we own their country. We own their airspace... We dictate the way they live and talk. And that's what's great about America right now. It's a good thing, especially when there's a lot of oil out there we need." then that is a reason people accessorize with dynamite. The flaunting all over the globe toppling governments we don't like (Arbenz in Guatemala all the way to the CIA attempts against Chavez in Venezuela) -- stopping our participation in terrorism (if you read the US definition of terrorism, US military actions qualify) will go a long way to ending terrorism.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Nuke and Killa, I highly doubt that you've read "Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism" but it is a good read.

 

http://antiwar.com/pat/

 

His book is drawn from an immense database on every suicide-bomb attack from 1980 to early 2004. Conclusion: The claim that 9/11 and the suicide bombings in Iraq are done to advance some jihad by "Islamofascists" against the West is not only unsubstantiated, it is hollow.

 

"Islamic fundamentalism is not as closely associated with suicide terrorism as many people think," Pape tells The American Conservative in its July 18 issue. Indeed, the world's leader in suicide terror was the Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka. This secular Marxist group "invented the famous suicide vest for their suicide assassination of Rajiv Ghandi in May 1991. The Palestinians got the idea of the vest from the Tamil Tigers."

 

But if the aim of suicide bombers is not to advance Islamism in a war of civilizations, what is its purpose? Pape's conclusion:

 

"uicide-terrorist attacks are not so much driven by religion as by a clear strategic objective: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland. From Lebanon to Sri Lanka to Chechnya to Kashmir to the West Bank, every major suicide terrorist campaign – over 95 percent of all incidents – has had as its central objective to compel a democratic state to withdraw."

 

The 9/11 terrorists were over here because we were over there. They are not trying to convert us. They are killing us to drive us out of their countries.

 

There is more at the link.

 

When people like Brig. General William Looney state: "[iraqis] know we own their country. We own their airspace... We dictate the way they live and talk. And that's what's great about America right now.  It's a good thing, especially when there's a lot of oil out there we need." then that is a reason people accessorize with dynamite.  The flaunting all over the globe toppling governments we don't like (Arbenz in Guatemala all the way to the CIA attempts against Chavez in Venezuela) -- stopping our participation in terrorism (if you read the US definition of terrorism, US military actions qualify) will go a long way to ending terrorism.

 

 

I do agree with your assessment that terrorists do what they do because we have a large military presence in the Middle East. Osama Bin Laden has said as much himself. However, I still fail to see how you can sit there and equate military action against a bunch like the Taliban or Hussein with some jackass strapping explosives to himself and blowing up a crowd of innocent people.

 

To further that point, suicide bombers in Iraq are now focusing most of their energy targeting ordinary civillians and local Iraqi police who might be shopping for groceries or directing traffic. Again. Terrorists deliberately target civillians while our military takes great pains to avoid civillian casualties. This is a bedrock truth that you always ignore.

 

EDIT. If we up and pulled every last soldier we had in the Middle East out right now the world would fall into chaos. Every last moderate in the region would fall to islamo-fascists, the world's oil supply from there would be choked off and a worldwide depression would ensue. Oh, by the way, suicide bombings would not stop either.

Edited July 25, 2005 by NUKE_CLEVELAND

[innersanctum]

Maybe I am selfish but I think it is the challenge of our elected leaders to keep us safe without infringing on my freedom. That is one of the reasons we elect them.

 

I can't help but think that if Patrick Henry was alive today and he said, "Give me liberty or give me death!", our government would give him death just to be on the safe side.

[professionalfan]

The system to protect us will never be perfect, but I think we are doing the best we can with what we have. I don't have a problem being searched if I think it will deter terrorist action. And I do believe that sometimes we are too careful to be politically correct with random searches. What's worse? Hurting someone's feelings, or letting a terrorist through? But then, I don't have to deal with that, so I don't really know how it feels to be singled out. Heck, who knows what we should do?

[southsider2k5]

LOL  Perhaps you've been living in the military too long to remember real life.

 

So we aren't changing our way of life?  Of course we are. Give up freedoms instead of getting blown up. We have changed and are willing to give up any rights and liberties. Read this thread. Random searches where we use to not have any. And this is in response to what? The terrorists in London. They f***ing won. They got us to change our life and live in fear.

 

I stand by my statement. The terrorists have won. They have struck terror into our lives and changed America. I'm not saying that it isn't the correct path to take. We probably had too many freedoms.

 

So what should we do?

[Texsox]

So what should we do?

 

Basically what we are doing. But realize we haven't won.

 

Since 9/11 do we have more or less freedoms?

 

Since 9/11 are we running budget surpluses or deficits? Deficits to fight the war on terror. How did the USSR fall? Largely from economic pressures brought on my debt.

 

Since 9/11 can you board a plane without taking off your shoes?

 

Soon the DMV will be asking for identification before you can renew your driver's license. They will be instant experts on birth certificates from around the world. http://unrealid.com/ Won't this be pleasant as it takes days to renew your driver's license.

 

We are suppose to be about freedom. I believe we've talked about spreading freedom around the world. Yet we are watching ours erode. This is winning? When you cannot walk down your own street without vigilantes stopping you because you may be an illegal. This is winning? When police can roll up to a subway stop and search anyone without probable cause?

 

Our collective paranoia caused us to start war with Iraq and now our military is tied up there with what is shaping up to be a decade long effort while the Sudanese are dying. Was that about WMD or spreading freedom? Either way the terrorists have won. They are spread all over the globe and we're babysitting in Iraq trying to teach people to vote and protect themselves.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Basically what we are doing. But realize we haven't won.

 

Since 9/11 do we have more or less freedoms?

 

Since 9/11 are we running budget surpluses or deficits? Deficits to fight the war on terror. How did the USSR fall? Largely from economic pressures brought on my debt.

 

Since 9/11 can you board a plane without taking off your shoes?

 

Soon the DMV will be asking for identification before you can renew your driver's license. They will be instant experts on birth certificates from around the world. http://unrealid.com/ Won't this be pleasant as it takes days to renew your driver's license.

 

We are suppose to be about freedom. I believe we've talked about spreading freedom around the world. Yet we are watching ours erode. This is winning? When you cannot walk down your own street without vigilantes stopping you because you may be an illegal. This is winning? When police can roll up to a subway stop and search anyone without probable cause?

 

Our collective paranoia caused us to start war with Iraq and now our military is tied up there with what is shaping up to be a decade long effort while the Sudanese are dying. Was that about WMD or spreading freedom? Either way the terrorists have won. They are spread all over the globe and we're babysitting in Iraq trying to teach people to vote and protect themselves.

 

 

People have been searched at airports without probable cause for decades but more people ride mass transit and nothing is done there. Does that make sense to you? It shouldn't.

 

Walk down your street without vigilantes stopping you? UHH Last time I checked unless your street was a mountain trail crossing the border that's not happening. Why do these evil vigilantes feel a need to do what they are doing? Oh, because the government isin't doing anything about border security. But since the government isin't tightening security there then you should be happy as illegals still have freedom of movement across our borders. Leaving the borders unguarded is "winning" the war on terrorism according to your logic.

 

 

Every day that goes by without an attack on our soil we are winning. Every time some tinpot dictator like Quadaffi renounces WMD and cites the fact that the US finally means business we are winning. Every time a country like Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Afghanistan hold free elections we are winning.

 

 

You cite the Sudan as somewhere we should be while our military is in Iraq? Isin't that the UN's job? Oh wait, Kofi and Kojo are too busy defending themselves from their own corruption and hypocrasy to be bothered with starving people.

[Texsox]

Why have we been checking security at airports?

Terrorists!! Before Hijackers, there was no screener, metal detectors, etc. So terrorists won that one a long time ago.

 

Try again.

Name me one area where we have more freedom than before?

Look how much debt we are racking up in Iraq. That's a victory?

 

What have we won?

 

Are you really saying life in America is better today? Deeper in debt. Less freedoms. More paranoia.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Why have we been checking security at airports?

Terrorists!! Before Hijackers, there was no screener, metal detectors, etc. So terrorists won that one a long time ago.

 

Try again.

Name me one area where we have more freedom than before?

Look how much debt we are racking up in Iraq. That's a victory?

 

What have we won?

 

Are you really saying life in America is better today? Deeper in debt. Less freedoms. More paranoia.

 

 

You keep babbling about how horrible life in America has become but that's just horses***. Unemployment is 5%, the economy is humming along. We have a big defecit but that is getting smaller by the day thanks to the strong economy and as a percentage of GDP is low in comparison with years past.

 

Your paranoia is little more than a frenzy whipped up by the media to score ratings. Indeed, terrorism is pretty far down the list of what people say they are concerned about in those polls those same hysteria mongers in the press take.

 

 

The argument that whenever we do something to protect ourselves the terrorists win is just horses***. The only way we can be winning according to your twisted logic is to totally disband our security services, police departments and the military because god forbid somebody gets stopped for speeding because that'd be one more small victory for terrorism.

 

 

:rolly

[innersanctum]

You keep babbling about how horrible life in America has become but that's just horses***.  Unemployment is 5%,  the economy is humming along.  We have a big defecit but that is getting smaller by the day thanks to the strong economy and as a percentage of GDP is low in comparison with years past. 

 

Your paranoia is little more than a frenzy whipped up by the media to score ratings. Indeed, terrorism is pretty far down the list of what people say they are concerned about in those polls those same hysteria mongers in the press take.

The argument that whenever we do something to protect ourselves the terrorists win is just horses***.  The only way we can be winning according to your twisted logic is to totally disband our security services, police departments and the military because god forbid somebody gets stopped for speeding because that'd be one more small victory for terrorism.

:rolly

 

 

If by GDP you mean the oil companies are cashing in, you are right! This year's crops are going expected to have 30% losses and higher which will require the government to step in and help the farmers. The oil companies will keep raising the price of oil to suit their needs. I can remember 2 years ago, everyone b****ed to their elected leaders the price of gas was too high. It's $2.15 where I am at now (I know that is pretty cheap compared to Chicago but it's high out here) and no one bats an eye about that. We have accepted that it's going to cost us $25+ to fill our tanks now. So when do we say stop? When is it that we have had enough?

 

I can't buy more than two boxes of sudafed at a Wal-mart now. I can't buy lithium batteries without someone having to validate my id and unlock them for me. Now video games are being censored, people are being searched at random intervals on mass transit.

 

If there is hope, it lies in the proles.

[EvilMonkey]

Just a thought, if our Constitution is supposed to be a 'living document' that can bend and adapt with the ever changing times, why can't our rights be as well? Tex, I understand what you are saying, but one one hand you criticize Bush and co. about being so 'black and white', but then on the other, you appear to be on some issues as well. yeah, maybe the terrorists HAVE won a bit. People also used to be able to leave their car doors unlocked. If I did that now, I would be needing a new radio tomorrow, assuming my car would still be there in the morning. Oh no, the crooks have won! I have to lock my door! We need to do SOMETHING. I'm not sure what checking random backpacksis gonna do, except maybe move the bombs to a different hiding place, but it is a start. Do YOU have a different suggestion? I haven't heard it yet.

[CubKilla]

All I know is that I'm waiting for a gallon of gas to cost >$1.00 considering the War in Iraq was all for the oil .

[CubKilla]

Do YOU have a different suggestion?  I haven't heard it yet.

 

I'll answer that for him..... "NO!"

[LowerCaseRepublican]

All I know is that I'm waiting for a gallon of gas to cost >$1.00 considering the War in Iraq was all for the oil  .

1. Gas does cost over a $1 a gallon

2. I'll assume you meant less than instead of greater than

3. Profits for US corporations (many of which buy off, er excuse me...give campaign contributions to our government) are quite nice with the current war. Halliburton getting busted for price gouging, moving empty trucks and charging for it, etc. etc.

 

And if you want to get into the "it is about oil" the Defense Planning Guidance of 1992 written by Cheney and Wolfowitz clearly states that the US role in the region should have a primary goal of controlling Middle Eastern oil.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

1. Gas does cost over a $1 a gallon

2. I'll assume you meant less than instead of greater than

3. Profits for US corporations (many of which buy off, er excuse me...give campaign contributions to our government) are quite nice with the current war.  Halliburton getting busted for price gouging, moving empty trucks and charging for it, etc. etc.

 

And if you want to get into the "it is about oil" the Defense Planning Guidance of 1992 written by Cheney and Wolfowitz clearly states that the US role in the region should have a primary goal of controlling Middle Eastern oil.

 

 

If we don't do something to keep the moderate governments in power over in that region then we're f***ed, along with the rest of the world. Can you imagine a world where islamo-fascists control countries like Kuwait, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Qatar and others? Think worldwide depression and 10 dollar a gallon gasoline.

[KipWellsFan]

If we don't do something to keep the moderate governments in power over in that region then we're f***ed,  along with the rest of the world.  Can you imagine a world where islamo-fascists control countries like Kuwait, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Qatar and others?  Think worldwide depression and 10 dollar a gallon gasoline.

 

Don't worry Alberta and Siberia got yo backs!

[Texsox]

Just a thought, if our Constitution is supposed to be a 'living document' that can bend and adapt with the ever changing times, why can't our rights be as well?  Tex, I understand what you are saying, but one one hand you criticize Bush and co. about being so 'black and white', but then on the other, you appear to be on some issues as well.  yeah, maybe the terrorists HAVE won a bit.  People also used to be able to leave their car doors unlocked.  If I did that now, I would be needing a new radio tomorrow, assuming my car would still be there in the morning.  Oh no, the crooks have won!  I have to lock my door! We need to do SOMETHING. I'm not sure what checking random backpacksis gonna do, except maybe move the bombs to a different hiding place, but it is a start.  Do YOU have a different suggestion?  I haven't heard it yet.

 

I said at least twice in this thread, we do need to take these steps and each of these steps are a step back for our rights and freedoms. It certainly isn't a step forward for rights and freedoms. I don't believe anyone will say random searches are a victory for us and a defeat for terrorists. You are correct, now they will blow themselves up on a crowded corner or a football stadium. So we search there also. Soon random searches could be the price we pay for being in public.

 

If you were a suicide bomber, attacking mass transit, would you loiter on the platform or rush up at the last minute? So if the transit police are looking for someone to search wouldn't the late arriving passenger be a good choice? Now realize that could be you, and you are watching the train take off, while Barny is checking your lunch for explosives. Needing to arrive one hour early for a bus, like an airplane, is a victory over terrorists?

 

What concerns me is we are not only accepting a reduction in freedom, we are demanding and defending it. When we have totally thrown out innocent until proven guilty, we will have completed the cycle.

 

We talk about how if one innocent life is saved by these random searches, and that it is worth it. We could save hundreds and thousands of lives by reducing the speed limit to 55 (again). We could save hundreds of lives by banning guns (I am against that, but as an example), banning alcohol and tobacco, again would save lives. Of course we would not accept any of those infringements, yet we freely give up other freedoms.

 

Great point on our rights being flexible. They are probably on a pendulum, able to swing back and forth. Right now, we are on a swing away from total freedom.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Right now, we are on a swing away from total freedom.

 

 

Total Freedom = anarchy.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

If we don't do something to keep the moderate governments in power over in that region then we're f***ed,  along with the rest of the world.  Can you imagine a world where islamo-fascists control countries like Kuwait, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Qatar and others?  Think worldwide depression and 10 dollar a gallon gasoline.

 

Perhaps, I'm thinking about weaning ourselves off of oil. Then the fundies can have control of all the oil they want with no major market to sell it in.

 

And with Tex's comment...the Constitution is a set of rules that we don't get to throw away when we're scared. My personal favorite commentary about the 4th Amendment is when the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Agency Court of Review said that the Patriot Act's demand for "mere relevance to an ongoing investigation" was enough for warrants...the Court said that the Patriot Act may not cut the 4th Amendment mustard "but it almost certainly comes close."

 

Funny, I don't remember seeing the "Almost certainly comes close" provisions to any right in my Constitution.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Perhaps, I'm thinking about weaning ourselves off of oil.  Then the fundies can have control of all the oil they want with no major market to sell it in.

 

 

 

 

 

This much I can agree with. Unfortunately there's nothing feasible and cost effective right now. We need to get cracking on this problem soon though.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

This much I can agree with.  Unfortunately there's nothing feasible and cost effective right now.  We need to get cracking on this problem soon though.

Not feasible because of the stock interests of our Congressmen not to mention how they've been bought off...er, excuse me, received campaign contributions.

[Rex Kickass]

I'm not really sure where I stand on this particular action. I think the random searches aren't that intrusive. It's one thing to randomly search someone on the street. It's another to use a facility. Public transportation IS a facility.

 

The question is, if they find pot - will they let it go? If they're looking for bombs, the search oughta be limited to bombs I think. I'm uncomfortable with them using a random search for any other reason.

 

We live in a free society and that entails an element of risk. Why you don't see the panic in London that you see elsewhere is that this is a risk that they have lived with for decades. If you'd ever been on the Underground - you would have noticed that there were no trashcans. Because they adapted from IRA bombs. They've accepted the fact that if someone wants to kill them, they're probably going to get hit in some way or fashion.

 

They might do all they can to prevent them, but they won't sacrifice their own rights to make sure that it doesn't happen. The same can be said of the Germans, French and Spanish. And its a lesson we should probably learn too.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

I'm not really sure where I stand on this particular action. I think the random searches aren't that intrusive. It's one thing to randomly search someone on the street. It's another to use a facility. Public transportation IS a facility.

 

The question is, if they find pot - will they let it go? If they're looking for bombs, the search oughta be limited to bombs I think. I'm uncomfortable with them using a random search for any other reason.

 

We live in a free society and that entails an element of risk. Why you don't see the panic in London that you see elsewhere is that this is a risk that they have lived with for decades. If you'd ever been on the Underground - you would have noticed that there were no trashcans. Because they adapted from IRA bombs. They've accepted the fact that if someone wants to kill them, they're probably going to get hit in some way or fashion.

 

They might do all they can to prevent them, but they won't sacrifice their own rights to make sure that it doesn't happen. The same can be said of the Germans, French and Spanish. And its a lesson we should probably learn too.

 

The NYPD said that if a random search turns up anything that they will prosecute.

[Rex Kickass]

I can't support that. If they wanna search for bombs, I'm cool for that. Anything else - not cool. I think that's reasonable.

[GoodAsGould]

The NYPD said that if a random search turns up anything that they will prosecute.

 

Yeah that when it starts to get wrong, it should be strictly just a search for bombs if they are going to do searches.