Would you vote Palmeiro into the HoF?

[Buehrle>Wood]

I would vote him in as well as Sosa and Big Mac.

My reason. 99% of the people in this world could take steriods and still wouldnt be able to catch up with a major league pitcher to hit it out of the park.

That's not very good logic. So why not just vote anyone who can hit HRS out of the park?

 

 

Bottom line, steroids were the difference in Palmeiro being in the Hall of Fame, rather than the Hall of Very Good.

[kev211]

That's not very good logic. So why not just vote anyone who can hit HRS out of the park?

Bottom line, steroids were the difference in Palmeiro being in the Hall of Fame, rather than the Hall of Very Good.

Palmeiro would still get 2,500+ hits without roids and thatll get you into the hall

[Buehrle>Wood]

Palmeiro would still get 2,500+ hits without roids and thatll get you into the hall

1st off, we don't know this one bit.

 

2nd off, 2,500+ hits is no longer good enough to get you to the HoF. Just look at Harold Baines. His hits, along with his power numbers were good enough thouh.

[kev211]

1st off, we don't know this one bit.

 

2nd off, 2,500+ hits is no longer good enough to get you to the HoF. Just look at Harold Baines. His hits, along with his power numbers were good enough thouh.

If Palmiero didnt take steriods his career numbers would be right around harold baines.

[Benson&Rexage]

That's not very good logic. So why not just vote anyone who can hit HRS out of the park?

Bottom line, steroids were the difference in Palmeiro being in the Hall of Fame, rather than the Hall of Very Good.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How much baseball have you played in your life. Steriods or not it is extreemly impressive what these guys do.

I would give you a bottle or roids to take for three years and you still wouldnt be able to hit one out of Comiskey on a 110 degree day.

[Buehrle>Wood]

How much baseball have you played in your life. Steriods or not it is extreemly impressive what these guys do.

I would give you a bottle or roids to take for three years and you still wouldnt be able to hit one out of Comiskey on a 110 degree day.

No, but thats not the purpose of this thread. Its about Palmeiro and the HoF. Because he can simply hit a ball does not put him into the Hall of Fame. I'm not arguing that he is a good player without the roids, but I really believe Steroids were the extra thing that made his numbers hall worthy.

[YASNY]

Palmeiro isn't being compared with "99% of the people in this world" when it comes to HOF worthiness. He is being compared to ex and current ML ballplayers, most of which never thought about taking steroids. f*** him. He gawn!

[redandwhite]

He without a doubt deserves to be inducted into the Hall of Fame. Bonds, Sosa, McGwire will all be inducted and all are just as guilty as Palmiero, if not more. Should these four guys, quite possibly four of the best players in this generation, not be inducted into the Hall of Fame?

Edited August 3, 2005 by redandwhite

[YASNY]

He without a doubt deserves to be inducted into the Hall of Fame.  Bonds, Sosa, McGwire will all be inducted and all are just as guilty as Palmiero, if not more.  Should these four guys, quite possibly four of the best players in this generation, not be inducted into the Hall of Fame?

 

None should be inducted.

[Rowand44]

None should be inducted.

That begs the question: Should Gaylord Perry have been inducted?

[greasywheels121]

He without a doubt deserves to be inducted into the Hall of Fame.  Bonds, Sosa, McGwire will all be inducted and all are just as guilty as Palmiero, if not more.  Should these four guys, quite possibly four of the best players in this generation, not be inducted into the Hall of Fame?

 

Not if they're cheating, which you think they are by saying they're just as guilty.

[S720]

He without a doubt deserves to be inducted into the Hall of Fame.  Bonds, Sosa, McGwire will all be inducted and all are just as guilty as Palmiero, if not more.  Should these four guys, quite possibly four of the best players in this generation, not be inducted into the Hall of Fame?

 

Hell, if that's the case, why don't MLB create another Hall and name it Hall of Shame, and put those cheaters in?

 

It just incensed me when MLB knew of Palmeiro's drug failing back in May, and they allowed every baseball fan to glorify him when he got his 3000 hits eventhough they knew that he was a cheater. Damn MLB! Damn Palmeiro! How can they lie with a straight face like that???

 

Hall of Shame inductees: MLB, Palmeiro, Sosa, Bonds, McGuire and all of those cheaters

 

Hall of Fame inductees: Thomas and all of those played by the rules.

[Steff]

MLB paid for full paid ads saying "Congrats Raffy"... nothing surprises me from those idiots.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Hell no, I wouldn't put him in the HOF.

 

Allow me to provide a link to an explanation of fast twitch and slow twitch muscle fibers here:

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/exercis...a/aa080901a.htm

 

What this article points out is that fast twitch muscle fibers, which occur at similar rates throughout muslce systems as slow twitch muscle fibers, are more useful for short-term, explosive exertion, as opposed to the long-term endurance provided by slow-twitch fibers. How does this have to do with baseball? Well, IF a player could find a way to improve the condition or quantity of his fast twitch muscle fibers, then he could potentially speed up his reaction time both in recognizing and judging a pitch and acting on this observation. That is, a player with an abnormally high percentage of fast twitch muscle fibers or well-trained fast twitch muscle fibers is better able to see and hit pitches.

 

This can be reflected both in his "eye" - BB/K ratio - and his numbers, from power to average to slugging percentage.

 

That's interesting. But how do steroids play into this?

Well, I Googled "fast twitch steroids" and came up with this site (http://www.anabolicstore.com/ipp_maxteron.aspx) as my first result. Quoth the homepage:

 

"Fast twitch fibers are the muscle fibers that make you “super-human”. They’re the muscle fibers that set world records in power lifting and track and field… they’re the fibers that have the capacity to grow beyond your wildest imagination… they’re the fibers every athlete (especially bodybuilders) wish they had lots of...But… what you can do is “anabolize” the hell out of existing fast twitch fibers you do have… so you appear to be all fast twitch. In other words, with the right systems in place, you can preferentially direct protein anabolism toward the muscles that have the greatest capacity for growth!"

 

So some anabolic, er, supplements claim to help train these fast twitch muscle fibers to improve performance and appearance. Well, let's then take a look at the leaked info about Palmeiro's suspension. He tested positive for stanozolol, sold under the name Winstrol, and memorable for its use by Ben Johnson. Needless to say, a sprinter benefits from fast twitch muscle fibers. So does a hitter with 500 homers and 3,000 hits. Now, this drug is NOT available in over-the-counter supplements. "Stanozolol is used in horses to improve appetite, weight gain, energy levels and muscle mass primarily in horses recovering from illness, surgery, overwork, or other major stress. Anabolic steroids are also used in racehorses and performance horses to improve strength, increase muscle mass and try to improve athletic performance.

There is no research evidence that supports their use as a "performance enhancing" drug (http://www.wedgewoodpharmacy.com/stanozolol.asp)." About human use, see here:

http://www.cyberiron.com/drugs/stanozolol.html.

 

Funny thing, only applicable to Palmeiro, is that stanozolol can cause "frequent or persistent erections," according to http://www.drugs.com/MTM/stanozolol.html.

 

In summary, the use of steroids such as stanozolol in professional baseball is linked to the desire to improve the performance of fast twitch muscle fibers. The fast twitch muscle fibers are those responsible for short-term strength and performance, traits useful for hitters trying to improve power hitting and overall batting performance. This in general would actually involve hand-eye coordination.

 

Palmeiro was dumb enough to get caught using a powerful, well-known, infamous and urine-present steroid. Bully for baseball.

[redandwhite]

QUOTE(YASNY @ Aug 3, 2005 -> 08:21 AM)

None should be inducted.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Four of the best players of this era, hell possibly ever, not in the Hall? That would be incredible.

[greasywheels121]

Four of the best players of this era, hell possibly ever, not in the Hall?  That would be incredible.

 

Pete Rose isn't in the HOF either because he didn't follow one of the few rules MLB players have to follow. If those players can't follow them either, they don't deserve to be there.

[redandwhite]

I'm not disagreeing with you, its just hard to fathom.

[ZoomSlowik]

My take on the big guys, those being Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, and Palmeiro

 

I think Bonds should get in, although not on the first ballot anymore. He was a great all-around player that won a couple of MVP awards long before he ever became the feared super-slugger. He didn't become the behemoth that he is now until somewhere around 2000.

 

Sammy is a guy I wouldn't put in. He clearly benefitted between 1998 and 2002. He was an absolute monster during those years. He had some good years outside of that stretch but in my book not enough to warrant him being in with the knowledge that he probably did steroids. He was more of a .270 hitter with pop before that monster run where he pushed it around .300.

 

I definitely wouldn't put McGwire in. He's a guy who's credentials were entirely built around his power. He wasn't that great a hitter outside of the homers.

 

Palmeiro is another I wouldn't put in after recent events. I wasn't a big fan of his candidacy before this because outside of his career hits and homerun numbers he doesn't seem to be hall-worthy. He didn't hit over 30 homers until he was 28, and then did it 9 of the next 11 years, hitting over 40 four times. That seems pretty fishy to me.

 

Steroids won't turn a mediocre or poor player into a star, but they seem to be able to turn a pretty good player into a star. Anyone that makes the majors is already a better player than 99.9 percent of the population, so a much smaller improvement is needed to vault over many of those players. If you can already hit a 95 MPH fastball, adding another 10-20 feet can have a huge benefit. 20 flyballs in the course of the year that turn into homers or doubles makes a drastic difference. It seems that steroids has been able to put guys like Bonds, Sosa, Giambi, Palmeiro, and Boone over the top.

Edited August 3, 2005 by ZoomSlowik

[LowerCaseRepublican]

My take on the big guys, those being Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, and Palmeiro

 

I think Bonds should get in, although not on the first ballot anymore. He was a great all-around player that won a couple of MVP awards long before he ever became the feared super-slugger. He didn't become the behemoth that he is now until somewhere around 2000.

 

Sammy is a guy I wouldn't put in. He clearly benefitted between 1998 and 2002. He was an absolute monster during those years. He had some good years outside of that stretch but in my book not enough to warrant him being in with the knowledge that he probably did steroids. He was more of a .270 hitter with pop before that monster run where he pushed it around .300.

 

I definitely wouldn't put McGwire in. He's a guy who's credentials were entirely built around his power. He wasn't that great a hitter outside of the homers.

 

Palmeiro is another I wouldn't put in after recent events. I wasn't a big fan of his candidacy before this because outside of his career hits and homerun numbers he doesn't seem to be hall-worthy. He didn't hit over 30 homers until he was 28, and then did it 9 of the next 11 years, hitting over 40 four times. That seems pretty fishy to me.

 

Steroids won't turn a mediocre or poor player into a star, but they seem to be able to turn a pretty good player into a star. Anyone that makes the majors is already a better player than 99.9 percent of the population, so a much smaller improvement is needed to vault over many of those players. If you can already hit a 95 MPH fastball, adding another 10-20 feet can have a huge benefit. 20 flyballs in the course of the year that turn into homers or doubles makes a drastic difference. It seems that steroids has been able to put guys like Bonds, Sosa, Giambi, Palmeiro, and Boone over the top.

It isn't just that it will turn flyouts into HRs and smaller hits into gappers. It affects the muscle fibers and speeds up their reaction time so it improves their power numbers, average and slugging percentage. Steroids greatly improve hand-eye coordination which allows for a greater ability to simply hit the ball for hits...not just power numbers. McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Palmeiro...they're all cheating sonsofb****es.

[White Sox Josh]

If Palmeiro is inducted (he should) than Fred McGriff deserves to be in.

[YASNY]

I'm going to keep and open mind on Palmeiro until this all plays out. But, from what I know about this currently, I would say no to his HOF candidacy.