If your gonna whine and jump off a cliff

[Milkman delivers]

Please.... KW is not going to be and should not be fired.  No way.  That's silly.

 

That doesn't mean he doesn't take most of the blame if there is a complete collapse or a 1st playoff series loss.  He does.

 

The proof is in the pudding.  We've been a 2nd place team or a 1st place team than cannot do anything in the playoffs for DECADES.

 

If he doesn't improve that, then we're no better and no worse with him (i.e. we're not going to have a losing season, we're not going to be in 3rd place).

 

So he is either "Exec Of The Year" or "Par For The Course".

 

The latter does not deserve firing this year...

 

His job is to f***ing improve the team. I'm not saying he should be fired, but I'm tired of these garbage excuses for everyone. He's trying, he's worked all offseason on his swing, we could do worse...DO YOUR JOB.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Aug 24, 2005 -> 03:56 PM)

Don't use the budget as an excuse for KW. He has the highest budget in the division, and if he could develop minor leaguers who could actually contribute, he would have more money to spend on impact players. Its his 5th year as GM. Who has he developed? Compared to other organizations, the farm system has been poor.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Besides Oakland, Minnesota, and Atlanta, what other organizations would you be talking about? I don't see many organizations at all developing young talent on a consistent basis.

[fathom]

Besides Oakland, Minnesota, and Atlanta, what other organizations would you be talking about? I don't see many organizations at all developing young talent on a consistent basis.

 

Cleveland....they're going to be monsters for the next 5 years or so.

[Guest JimH]

Cleveland....they're going to be monsters for the next 5 years or so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree with this, they made some great trades and brought in the right prospects. Sizemore is a perfect example.

[Yossarian]

Don't use the budget as an excuse for KW. He has the highest budget in the division, and if he could develop minor leaguers who could actually contribute, he would have more money to spend on impact players. Its his 5th year as GM. Who has he developed? Compared to other organizations, the farm system has been poor.

You're right the farm system is poor. That's because there is not a top to bottom committment to excellence, but rather a top down edict geared toward the short term bottom line. That's not KW's fault. It's not his fault that JR will not recognize that Chicago is not podunk but rather a major world class metropolitan area. No one was harder on KW than me. At this point I refuse to lay it all on him. What if he was axed? You think JR is going to hire someone that wants to build a franchise that's built to last for the long term? That costs money and may mean working in the red for a couple of years. With JR and his group it's short term bottom line all the way. KW at least convinced me he wants to win, and it's obvious he's aggressive in the market place. I know some people don't believe that because we didn't land Junior, but KW's history shows he's not shy. KW is no longer my scapegoat of choice and he shouldn't be yours either.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(fathom @ Aug 24, 2005 -> 04:07 PM)

Cleveland....they're going to be monsters for the next 5 years or so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

OK, but it took them a while to regroup and turn it back around, and besides CC Sabathia is anyone on that pitching staff home grown talent?

 

Victor Martinez

Jonny Peralta

Travis Hafner

Coco Crisp

Grady Sizemore

Casey Blake

CC Sabathia

That is all right?

 

WHITE SOX home grown talent

Mark Buehrle

Jon Garland

Neal Cotts

Bobby Jenks

Joe Crede

Aaron Rowand

[BigSqwert]

WHITE SOX home grown talent

Mark Buehrle

Jon Garland

Neal Cotts

Bobby Jenks

Joe Crede

Aaron Rowand

 

Wasn't Garland acquired via a trade with the Cubs?

[Flash Tizzle]

His job is to f***ing improve the team.  I'm not saying he should be fired, but I'm tired of these garbage excuses for everyone.  He's trying, he's worked all offseason on his swing, we could do worse...DO YOUR JOB.

 

Williams' job will be safe this season if the team s***s itself and falls flat.

 

However, next season, IMO, will be the determing year on whether or not he'll remain the GM of this organization after 2006. This is all based on stipulation, but I don't see it any other way. If White Sox fail to reach the post season this year, and don't make the playoffs next sesason (regardless of the position they finish), Williams should be fired. No excuses.

 

He'll be given all benefit entering next season with this club because it's essentially the same team. It's his club, his moves, his future.

 

This offseaon will be unbearable for all you Williams supporters if our club finishes any possible collapse. See, in 10 years, no one will remember how the trading market "favored sellers" or "few teams made moves." Fans of future generations will recall our general manager sitting on his hands during the trading deadline and failing to acquire a hall-of-famer in Griffey. I said it the minute the trade deadline passed on July 31: if this team collapses or has an early round exit it's ALL coming back to Williams for doing nothing. Doesn't have to make sense--he will receive heavy criticism.

Edited August 24, 2005 by Flash Tizzle

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(BigSqwert @ Aug 24, 2005 -> 04:17 PM)

Wasn't Garland acquired via a trade with the Cubs?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Was he ever a Cub? He never pitched for the major league team. I consider him home grown because we developed him in our system. Didn't we develop him in our minor league system? It is like trading for a draft pick.

Edited August 24, 2005 by southsideirish

[BigSqwert]

Was he ever a Cub? He never pitched for the major league team. I consider him home grown because we developed him in our system. Didn't we develop him in our minor league system?

 

You may be right. My brain it too old to remember.

[YASNY]

You may be right.  My brain it too old to remember.

 

Garland pitched a little over one year in the Cubs system. He was drafted one year and traded to us the next.

[fathom]

OK, but it took them a while to regroup and turn it back around, and besides CC Sabathia is anyone on that pitching staff home grown talent?

 

Victor Martinez

Jonny Peralta

Travis Hafner

Coco Crisp

Grady Sizemore

Casey Blake

CC Sabathia

That is all right?

 

WHITE SOX home grown talent

Mark Buehrle

Jon Garland

Neal Cotts

Bobby Jenks

Joe Crede

Aaron Rowand

 

Jenks, Blake, Garland, Sizemore aren't considered home grown talent. Usually, home grown talent means players you've brought into the system, and developed throughout. Jenks is such a different pitcher than the type we usually see with the Sox...he must have been brought in!

[Kyyle23]

OK, but it took them a while to regroup and turn it back around, and besides CC Sabathia is anyone on that pitching staff home grown talent?

 

Victor Martinez

Jonny Peralta

Travis Hafner

Coco Crisp

Grady Sizemore

Casey Blake

CC Sabathia

That is all right?

 

WHITE SOX home grown talent

Mark Buehrle

Jon Garland

Neal Cotts

Bobby Jenks

Joe Crede

Aaron Rowand

 

Travis hafner came from Texas, and Sizemore came in the Colon trade. Are the Cleveland players supposed to be examples of homegrown talent?

 

Now that i look at it, Garland Cotts AND Jenks arent homegrown talent from the White Sox either.

[kapkomet]

Cleveland is STACKED in their system. They get a couple of more arms, and look out, it's the 90's stranglehold on the Central coming right back at us.

[YASNY]

Travis hafner came from Texas, and Sizemore came in the Colon trade.  Are the Cleveland players supposed to be examples of homegrown talent?

 

Now that i look at it, Garland Cotts AND Jenks arent homegrown talent from the White Sox either.

 

Maybe Jenks wasn't drafted by the Sox, but he was salvaged off the scrap heap. That's a good, no .... Great! GM move.

[fathom]

Maybe Jenks wasn't drafted by the Sox, but he was salvaged off the scrap heap.  That's a good, no .... Great! GM move.

 

I've said all year it's the best move KW made all season. That, and the AJP move, were the two best, in my opinion.

[sox-r-us]

:banghead

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(YASNY @ Aug 24, 2005 -> 04:38 PM)

Maybe Jenks wasn't drafted by the Sox, but he was salvaged off the scrap heap.  That's a good, no .... Great! GM move.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree.

 

Jenks was developed into a reliever by the Sox, something he wasn't with the Angels system. He could be really good. Cotts also was a starter with the Oakland system and he was turned into a pretty damn good left handed reliever by the Sox system. Both were in our minor league system before being brought up to the minor league club. Garland was also developed by the Sox and went through our minor league system. I consider all of those players home grown talent. Just because you were not drafted by the same team does not mean you were not developed by them. Being developed by an organization is basically what home grown is, no?

[thedoctor]

OK, but it took them a while to regroup and turn it back around, and besides CC Sabathia is anyone on that pitching staff home grown talent?

 

Victor Martinez

Jonny Peralta

Travis Hafner

Coco Crisp

Grady Sizemore

Casey Blake

CC Sabathia

That is all right?

 

WHITE SOX home grown talent

Mark Buehrle

Jon Garland

Neal Cotts

Bobby Jenks

Joe Crede

Aaron Rowand

 

i guess it depends on your definition of home-grown. if you mean a guy you drafted and brought through the system to the big club, that's one thing; but if you mean drafted elsewhere than traded as you are a minor-leaguer, that's another.

 

the indians picked up sizemore and crisp from other orgs when they were still in the minors. if that is the rationale then cliff lee and jake westbrook would also be considered homegrown.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(fathom @ Aug 24, 2005 -> 04:41 PM)

I've said all year it's the best move KW made all season.  That, and the AJP move, were the two best, in my opinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Scootie P

Iguchi

A.J.

Jenks

Hermanson

Pablo Ozuna

Jermaine Dye

 

 

All of those moves have been very very good.

[Dick Allen]

OK, but it took them a while to regroup and turn it back around, and besides CC Sabathia is anyone on that pitching staff home grown talent?

 

Victor Martinez

Jonny Peralta

Travis Hafner

Coco Crisp

Grady Sizemore

Casey Blake

CC Sabathia

That is all right?

 

WHITE SOX home grown talent

Mark Buehrle

Jon Garland

Neal Cotts

Bobby Jenks

Joe Crede

Aaron Rowand

It might have taken them a while to turn it around, but they won the division in 2001. Your list of home grown talent makes my point about the minor league production under KW even stronger. Buehrle and Crede had already played in the major leagues when KW took over, and KW's first year as GM, was Rowand's first in AAA. Cotts was a trade, Jenks a waiver pick up, and Garland, who I believe logged time with the Sox in 2000, was also a trade. This is year 5 for KW There is not 1 White Sox draft pick since he took over on the team except for Anderson who is just filler. The minor leagues need to produce. JR is not cheap with the money to develop players, in fact Torborg was gushing a couple weeks ago how much he dumps into player development.

Edited August 24, 2005 by Dick Allen

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(thedoctor @ Aug 24, 2005 -> 04:44 PM)

i guess it depends on your definition of home-grown. if you mean a guy you drafted and brought through the system to the big club, that's one thing; but if you mean drafted elsewhere than traded as you are a minor-leaguer, that's another.

 

the indians picked up sizemore and crisp from other orgs when they were still in the minors. if that is the rationale then cliff lee and jake westbrook would also be considered homegrown.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I believe both Cliff Lee and Jake Westbrook pitched with other major league teams. Lee with the Expos and Westbrook with the Yanks, I may eb wrong about Lee however. They were brought up through another team's organization AND played with another major league club. I do not consider them homegrown.

Edited August 24, 2005 by southsideirish

[Greg Hibbard]

The bottom line: we live in what should be a great sports town with a bad football organization that cannot scout talent or draft well, a hockey organization that was rightfully called the worst sports franchise in all of sports in a recent espn poll, and the two most futile baseball franchises in mlb history.

 

Moreover, us White Sox fans have to deal with the fact that our team has not won a playoff series in 87+ years.

 

My grandfather, who was born in 1920 and passed away last december, never experienced the White Sox win a playoff series in his f***ing LIFETIME.

 

We consistently are second fiddle in our own f***ing town, and arguably the best player our organization ever had was banned from baseball for a crime many say he did not even commit.

 

So excuse me if I say anyone is allowed to f***ing vent any old way they please when things start going REALLY badly, even for a first place team.

 

I know I am.

[fathom]

Scootie P

Iguchi

A.J.

Jenks

Hermanson

Pablo Ozuna

Jermaine Dye

All of those moves have been very very good.

 

I agree, I was just saying that at the time, I thought they were great moves by KW. I couldn't imagine dealing with the Ben Davis/J. Burke tandem this season.

[thedoctor]

i just think that all this negativity is a great example of what almost 100 years blue balls will do to you.