IlliniKrush Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 QUOTE(YASNY @ Aug 27, 2005 -> 06:07 AM) What determines a "good manager" if not the won/loss record? That's a pretty ignorant way of looking at things. To evaluate a manager solely on record is like saying every team in MLB has the exact same talent level. Come on, now. Also, Ozzie tied the game by himself yesterday. Then later got the win. You sure you want to evaluate him based on W/L record? He should receive an "L" for yesterday's effort, not a W. That's why it's not won/loss record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 QUOTE(IlliniKrush @ Aug 27, 2005 -> 01:24 PM) That's a pretty ignorant way of looking at things. To evaluate a manager solely on record is like saying every team in MLB has the exact same talent level. Come on, now. Also, Ozzie tied the game by himself yesterday. Then later got the win. You sure you want to evaluate him based on W/L record? He should receive an "L" for yesterday's effort, not a W. That's why it's not won/loss record. When it comes down to it, the is the only real measurement of a manager. Ignorant or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 QUOTE(One Pump Chump @ Aug 27, 2005 -> 02:56 AM) To get back on topic... I have talked to redandwhite about this before. Ozzie is not the best manager in the game...not even close. Probably not even a top 15 manager. And, IMO, he is probably one of the worst, if not THE worst, in-game managers in the league...and while that is an opinion, the mass would agree. But without Ozzie...are the Sox 78-47? Is there any other manager in the game that could have the Sox at 78-47 right now? I don't think so. So ya, he is pretty much Ditka. These guys would run through a wall for this guy(or at the very least, into a wall), and you can see it day in and day out. This basically sums up how I feel. He's an absolutely horrendous in game manager but this team is no where near as good without him. I love his managing style as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Sox Josh Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 I have no idea and I don't really want to know either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 He's an absolutely horrendous in game manager --is he really that bad?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 QUOTE(greg775 @ Aug 28, 2005 -> 02:47 AM) He's an absolutely horrendous in game manager --is he really that bad?? Many of us seem to think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 QUOTE(YASNY @ Aug 27, 2005 -> 08:41 PM) When it comes down to it, the is the only real measurement of a manager. Ignorant or not. Well you're entitled to your opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 QUOTE(IlliniKrush @ Aug 28, 2005 -> 01:29 AM) Well you're entitled to your opinion. Thank you. At times around here, that is not a given. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 QUOTE(YASNY @ Aug 27, 2005 -> 07:07 AM) What determines a "good manager" if not the won/loss record? I agree it's the Record. Just look at Joe Torre. He's soooooooo Damn overrated it's pathetic. But wins and Loses get you on Marketing Machine ESPN and that how people think you're good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 QUOTE(JoshPR @ Aug 28, 2005 -> 08:18 AM) I agree it's the Record. Just look at Joe Torre. He's soooooooo Damn overrated it's pathetic. But wins and Loses get you on Marketing Machine ESPN and that how people think you're good Anyone can sit and disect a manager's moves and decisions. But, that's like looking at a sapling while standing in a forest. The main point I was trying to make was that a manager has to manage with the long interests of the entire team at heart. Here is an example of what I mean. Jerry Manuel almost ruined Garland because he never gave Garland the oportunity to take another step in his development. He did not give Garland a chance to succeed because he wouldn't allow him to face a possible failure. So, last year we had wait for Garland to go through that particular learning phase under Ozzie because Manuel didn't do it 3 years ago. Ozzie has also been criticized for countless bullpen moves, yet he has made questionable moves that have allowed these guys to develop some stones and become a very good pen. Ozzie gets criticized for leaving in or taking out a starter ... it doesn't matter which ... yet he has all 5 starters going out there with a very good chance of getting us quality start every game. It was stated earlier that Ozzie was a horrid in game manager but he has gotten more from his players than anyone expected. Getting more out of your team than expected is what defines a good manager. Ozzie qualifies ... this year. I know a lot of St. Louis fans that despise LaRussa. They disagree with in-game decisions and whatnot. But step back and look at what that man has accomplished. He's going to be a HOF manager but people still say he sucks. It's the big picture folks, not a decision you disagree with when you are most likely under informed about the situation that determines what a good manager is. But, then ... don't mind me. I'm 'ignorant'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 (edited) QUOTE(YASNY @ Aug 28, 2005 -> 09:42 AM) It was stated earlier that Ozzie was a horrid in game manager but he has gotten more from his players than anyone expected. Getting more out of your team than expected is what defines a good manager. Ozzie qualifies ... this year. Couldn't agree more But, then ... don't mind me. I'm 'ignorant'. I did not say that.... Edited August 28, 2005 by JoshPR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 QUOTE(JoshPR @ Aug 28, 2005 -> 11:04 AM) Couldn't agree more I did not say that.... LOL ... nope. You didn't. I didn't mean to imply that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 QUOTE(YASNY @ Aug 28, 2005 -> 12:23 PM) LOL ... nope. You didn't. I didn't mean to imply that. No, I know I was just yanking your chain a lil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 For the record, YASNY, i never called YOU ignorant. I said that particular way of looking at things is ignorant, and i stand by it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 QUOTE(IlliniKrush @ Aug 28, 2005 -> 12:05 PM) For the record, YASNY, i never called YOU ignorant. I said that particular way of looking at things is ignorant, and i stand by it. semantics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 (edited) Piniella must be a terrible manager, he's 22 games under .500!!! Edited August 28, 2005 by IlliniKrush Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHarris1 Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 QUOTE(IlliniKrush @ Aug 28, 2005 -> 12:45 PM) Piniella must be a terrible manager, he's 22 games under .500!!! Of course W/L isn't the end all be all when grading a manager, but you mentioned talent level, correct? What did people think of the White Sox talent coming into this season? Sure if we went into the season viewed as a talented juggernaut this wouldn't be as impressive on Ozzies part, but IIRC we were supposed to be very mediocre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 (edited) QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Aug 28, 2005 -> 12:55 PM) Of course W/L isn't the end all be all when grading a manager, but you mentioned talent level, correct? What did people think of the White Sox talent coming into this season? Sure if we went into the season viewed as a talented juggernaut this wouldn't be as impressive on Ozzies part, but IIRC we were supposed to be very mediocre. Well undoubtedly a lot of the success this year has to do with Garland stepping up and the performance of the bullpen. Did Ozzie's managing really turn Garland into a cy young contender? Did he manage these bullpen arms to greatness? If anything, Cooper is more responsible for that. Or simply KW for acquiring those arms. Edited August 28, 2005 by IlliniKrush Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 I explained my reasoning for my original statement. Maybe that statement was oversimplified without taking things like ownership into the equation. So stop picking an exception to the rule and look at longer post I made. I stand by what I said as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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