Hurricane Katrina

[Balta1701]

Space Shuttle flights might be delayed for a year, partially because of logistical problems from Katrina, partly because of exsisting problems.

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9241242/

Maybe (in this 1 limited case) this is a good thing, just on the grounds that it gives technicians more time to work on that foam problem.

[southsider2k5]

When they judge something to be "cost-effective", do you think they judged it to be cost effective relative to how much extra tax dollars would have to be spent on the project, or do you think they judged whether or not it was cost-effective relative to the cost of rebuilding the entire city?

 

Somehow, I doubt that they judged it was cost-effective relative to the value of New Orleans.

 

Who knows what formula they use. If you stop and think about it, right now there are literally thousands of things that people are making studies of, and reporting that if this isn't fixed, some fatal flaw could lead to people dying, and all that it would take it a bunch more funding to fix it. The problem is deciding which projects are truely the most important with whatever cost/risk analysis they are doing right now.

 

I'll tell you one thing, if I am somewhere like LA on the west coast, I am screaming my head off right now for more funding to prevent the samekind of disasterous response after an earthquake. It will be interesting to see if we see a shift into more funding of preventative maintence towards natural disasters, or if we see the same see-no-evil philosophy that has been prevelent in our government for decades.

[Steff]

The girls of Laguna Beach are probably organizing a rally as I type this...

[Balta1701]

Who knows what formula they use.  If you stop and think about it, right now there are literally thousands of things that people are making studies of, and reporting that if this isn't fixed, some fatal flaw could lead to people dying, and all that it would take it a bunch more funding to fix it.  The problem is deciding which projects are truely the most important with whatever cost/risk analysis they are doing right now. 

 

I'll tell you one thing, if I am somewhere like LA on the west coast, I am screaming my head off right now for more funding to prevent the samekind of disasterous response after an earthquake.  It will be interesting to see if we see a shift into more funding of preventative maintence towards natural disasters, or if we see the same see-no-evil philosophy that has been prevelent in our government for decades.

I think that the fact of the matter is actually quite simple...we had a gigantic budget surplus a few years ago and a known set of needs for infrastructure upgrades and maintenance in this country...we chose tax cuts. There are a huge number of things not getting fixed all around the country because of them. The Levees in New Orleans were just 1 item on the list.

[tonyho7476]

I'll tell you one thing, if I am somewhere like LA on the west coast, I am screaming my head off right now for more funding to prevent the samekind of disasterous response after an earthquake.  It will be interesting to see if we see a shift into more funding of preventative maintence towards natural disasters, or if we see the same see-no-evil philosophy that has been prevelent in our government for decades.

 

This is why I will stay in Chicagoland....I know, we have tornadoes...but I'll take that over this s***. It almost sounds to me like a city shouldn't even exist there.

[LosMediasBlancas]

Who knows what formula they use.  If you stop and think about it, right now there are literally thousands of things that people are making studies of, and reporting that if this isn't fixed, some fatal flaw could lead to people dying, and all that it would take it a bunch more funding to fix it.  The problem is deciding which projects are truely the most important with whatever cost/risk analysis they are doing right now. 

 

I'll tell you one thing, if I am somewhere like LA on the west coast, I am screaming my head off right now for more funding to prevent the samekind of disasterous response after an earthquake.  It will be interesting to see if we see a shift into more funding of preventative maintence towards natural disasters, or if we see the same see-no-evil philosophy that has been prevelent in our government for decades.

 

No s***. Not to mention, who is real confident in this admin. right now in the event of a huge terrorist attack? You don't think they've taken a good look at the past 10 days and realized that roads, bridges and levees are vulnerable. I understand that N.O. was a unique situation, but there have to be similar ones.

[southsider2k5]

I think that the fact of the matter is actually quite simple...we had a gigantic budget surplus a few years ago and a known set of needs for infrastructure upgrades and maintenance in this country...we chose tax cuts.  There are a huge number of things not getting fixed all around the country because of them.  The Levees in New Orleans were just 1 item on the list.

 

We wouldn't have had a budget surplus in the years after 9-11, even if we didn't have the tax cuts. That is even assuming that growth rates came near where they did after the additional stimulation of the tax cuts.

[Steff]

This is why I will stay in Chicagoland....I know, we have tornadoes...but I'll take that over this s***.  It almost sounds to me like a city shouldn't even exist there.

 

 

 

Agree.. wasn't the brightest move dropping anchor there, but back then they didn't realize I'm sure.

 

Regardless.. as important as NO is to this countries economy you'd think it would have continued to be a priority to make it "stronger". What is it.. 20% of all goods go into or come out of there..? 20%.. of EVERYTHING...

[southsider2k5]

No s***. Not to mention, who is real confident in this admin. right now in the event of a huge terrorist attack? You don't think they've taken a good look at the past 10 days and realized that roads, bridges and levees are vulnerable.  I understand that N.O. was a unique situation, but there have to be similar ones.

 

Our nuclear facilities have been routinely failing simulated terrorist attacks for decades.

 

Our shipping lanes have about 1% of its cargoes inspected as they cruise into ports.

 

Russia has been selling nuclear materials to anyone with cash, as has Pakistan, North Korea and China.

 

There is plenty out there to worry about, eventually something IS going to happen, there is no doubt in my mind. And if our governmental response at all levels is this big of a clusterf***, we are all screwed when it does.

[tonyho7476]

Agree.. wasn't the brightest move dropping anchor there, but back then they didn't realize I'm sure.

 

Regardless.. as important as NO is to this countries economy you'd think it would have continued to be a priority to make it "stronger". What is it.. 20% of all goods go into or come out of there..? 20%.. of EVERYTHING... 

 

That is a scary number. How f'd up is this economy going to get?

[FlaSoxxJim]

Agree.. wasn't the brightest move dropping anchor there, but back then they didn't realize I'm sure.

 

Regardless.. as important as NO is to this countries economy you'd think it would have continued to be a priority to make it "stronger". What is it.. 20% of all goods go into or come out of there..? 20%.. of EVERYTHING... 

Bienville founded New Orleans where it was because of its accessibility, located right between the Mississippi and Lake Pontchartrain. So from that standpoint it made sense. The growth of a settlement to a metropolis on the same site, that was not so well thought out. Truth is, though, there has been a lot of land subsidence since then. The site is worse now then it was ehen it was founded.

[Balta1701]

This is why I will stay in Chicagoland....I know, we have tornadoes...but I'll take that over this s***.  It almost sounds to me like a city shouldn't even exist there.

Actually...you're well within the range that could suffer damage in the event of another large quake in the New Madrid fault zone...the zone which produced the largest earthquakes in U.S. history in the early 1800's.

 

It wouldn't hit the city itself, but the city is close enough that it would feel a fair amount of shaking, and since the buildings in that area haven't been designed AT ALL to sustain earthquake vibrations...well you get the idea.

[southsider2k5]

Bienville founded New Orleans where it was because of its accessibility, located right between the Mississippi and Lake Pontchartrain.  So from that standpoint it made sense.  The growth of a settlement to a metropolis on the same site, that was not so well thought out.  Truth is, though, there has been a lot of land subsidence since then.  The site is worse now then it was ehen it was founded.

 

And if I understand it correctly, it is the very levee system that is the biggest source of the problem as it did not allow for the natural deposit of silt in the low lying areas down there, which has contributed to them being further below sea level than they would have been. Ironic.

[Balta1701]

Bienville founded New Orleans where it was because of its accessibility, located right between the Mississippi and Lake Pontchartrain.  So from that standpoint it made sense.  The growth of a settlement to a metropolis on the same site, that was not so well thought out.  Truth is, though, there has been a lot of land subsidence since then.  The site is worse now then it was ehen it was founded.

You should also note WHY the land subsidence happens...the key cause of land subsidence is actually human action...when you pump water from a ground water reservoir, you reduce the pore pressure in that reservoir and thereby cause compaction of the surrounding sediments to get the pressure back up to a point that can support the weight of the overlying strata.

[Steff]

Nerds.

[Balta1701]

And if I understand it correctly, it is the very levee system that is the biggest source of the problem as it did not allow for the natural deposit of silt in the low lying areas down there, which has contributed to them being further below sea level than they would have been.  Ironic.

Actually I believe the big problem with the levee system is that it has heavily damaged the coastline of the delta itself, rather than lowering the city...the levees take the sediment carried by the river and pipe it directly into the gulf, when normally it would be dispersed across the delta. When that sediment is out in the gulf, it doesn't come back, but when it is carried out in a normal fashion, it implants itself throughout the delta, giving rise to barrier islands and other more secure channels when it is reworked.

 

The city is subsiding because of groundwater pumping from all that I've heard...the sediment supply is an issue of the coastline and how it functions (barrier islands are a wonderful protection against storm surge when they do exist)

[FlaSoxxJim]

The city is subsiding because of groundwater pumping from all that I've heard...the sediment supply is an issue of the coastline and how it functions (barrier islands are a wonderful protection against storm surge when they do exist)

 

And pretty much the barrier islands don't exist anymore. Nor much of the stabilizing coastal vegitation.

[Gene Honda Civic]

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0907051fema1.html

[Balta1701]

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0907051fema1.html

I think Bush's "What didn't go right" last week still tops that one.

[Balta1701]

Good to hear.

 

The three top jobs at the Federal Emergency Management Agency under President Bush went to political cronies with no apparent experience coping with catastrophes, the Daily News has learned.

 

Even if Bush were to fire embattled and suddenly invisible FEMA Director Michael Brown over his handling of Hurricane Katrina, the bureaucrat immediately below him is no disaster professional, either.

 

While Brown ran horse shows in his last private-sector job, FEMA's No. 2 man, deputy director and chief of staff Patrick Rhode, was an advance man for the Bush-Cheney campaign and White House. He also did short stints at the Commerce Department and Small Business Administration.

 

Rhode's biography posted on FEMA's Web site doesn't indicate he has any real experience in emergency response.

 

In addition, the agency's former third-ranking official, deputy chief of staff Scott Morris, was a PR expert who worked for Maverick Media, the Texas outfit that produced TV and radio spots for the Bush-Cheney campaign. In June, Morris moved to Florida to become FEMA's long-term recovery director.

 

"The Bush administration has apparently transformed FEMA from a professional, world-class emergency responder into a dumping ground for former campaign staff and political hacks," said Rep. Carolyn Maloney (D-Manhattan).

[Balta1701]

From the "Quotes that are too good not to post" file....

 

Embattled FEMA head Mike Brown insists he is well-qualified to lead the nation's disaster response agency - though he spent his time before joining the Federal Emergency Management Agency probing whether a breeder was performing liposuction on a horse's rear end.

[Rex Kickass]

Well, they DID make them to withstand a Cat 3, forty years ago. Study after study after study apparently said that the levees were sinking and weakening - and may not have withheld a Cat 3 this time either.

[Balta1701]

Yes, that's right kiddies, here it is just for you...the Fema for kids RAP!

 

Disaster . . . it can happen anywhere,

But we've got a few tips, so you can be prepared

For floods, tornadoes, or even a 'quake,

You've got to be ready - so your heart don't break.

 

Disaster prep is your responsibility

And mitigation is important to our agency.

 

People helping people is what we do

And FEMA is there to help see you through

When disaster strikes, we are at our best

But we're ready all the time, 'cause disasters don't rest.

 

(let me know if someone else posted that somewhere else in these 40 pages)

[JUGGERNAUT]

Wasn't the Red Cross involved in a scandal with the 9/11 $$$? If so I sure hope they are being heavily scrutinized this time around.

 

Why would any GOV of a Gulf Coast state wait on the Federal government

to adequately keep out the Gulf waters? At what point did the states become that dependant on the Federal government to take what many would consider no-brainer dire-need action?

 

Why would citizens fire on contractors? Because they are void of a definitive sense of morality. Why? Because no one taught them. Why? Ask the school boards. Perhaps they feel it's reasonable to leave such matters in the hands of the parents. :rolly

[Rex Kickass]

Why would any GOV of a Gulf Coast state wait on the Federal government

to adequately keep out the Gulf waters?  At what point did the states become that dependant on the Federal government to take what many would consider no-brainer dire-need action? 

 

 

Maybe because one out of three people in the state of Louisiana live below the poverty line leading to a reduced tax base for the state to draw from. Couple that with the fact that the Levees of New Orleans was a federal project built forty years ago by the Army Corps of Engineers and has been maintained by the federal government ever since the federal government built it.

 

State and local governments did in fact contribute funding to the maintenance of the Levies but a two billion dollar cost is an awful lot for a state who's budget, I'd expect is probably around 1 or 2 billion dollars.

 

Maybe the more appropriate question is "Why does the government feel it more pressing to spend a half billion dollars on bridges to uninhabited islands in Alaska than the money the Army Corps of Engineers asked to continue protecting New Orleans from storm surges and hurricanes and other floods?"

 

If the federal government provides funds for both of these projects, perhaps they'd be better off making 50 people in Alaska use a ferry while they use the "scarce" funds to protect a half million.