Greg Hibbard Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 (edited) You cannot build a complete world series caliber team today in major league baseball with a second tier payroll. We asked guys like Eldred and Valentin and Perry and Parque and Baldwin to carry us in 2000, and they did that for most of the year. But they are really mediocre players who were just having a pretty good stretch of a season together. Sure it won us a division title. This year, we're asking guys like Podsednik and Dye and Hermanson and Iguchi and Garland and Uribe and Crede to do the same thing. Are they great players? Hardly. Some are above average in some respects, maybe. Some are clearly below average. Have they done some things to win us a lot of ballgames? Sure. It's been a fun ride, and it'll be cool to see the Sox hopefully in the playoffs again. Even if it's another first round sweep. I guess. *sigh* I know attendance has been good and we hopefully will be opening the pocketbook up this offseason, but as a fan, I'm sick of trying to make another $70-80 million payroll team look like a $115 million payroll team. It's what I was doing in 2000, and more and more this August, it seems like it's what I'm doing in 2005. No matter how hard I squint, I still see a lineup that pales in comparison to any other AL contender. I see a pitching staff that is dead tired from trying to carry the team. I see long faces and worn out looks. Is there any hope that one day the Sox will actually spend like they want to win a World Series? Yeah, yeah, I know...Al Belle.....eons ago. Or are we eternally destined to that second tier of payroll...one in which very few (lucky as f***) teams are able to build championship teams with in a non-salary cap baseball environment. Also, I am trying REALLY hard to stay positive. Edited August 30, 2005 by Greg Hibbard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 It occurs to me that the Marlins recently did it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted August 30, 2005 Author Share Posted August 30, 2005 QUOTE(Greg Hibbard @ Aug 30, 2005 -> 05:44 PM) Or are we eternally destined to that second tier of payroll...one in which very few (lucky as f***) teams are able to build championship teams with in a non-salary cap baseball environment. If it wasn't for the Cubs choking the NLCS away, we'd never be talking about this. I'm not relying on a Bartman or Alex Gonzalez to bail the Sox out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 Aneheim's payroll wasn't exactly top tier and neither was Arizona's in fact they were recieving aid from MLB because they were so far in debt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted August 31, 2005 Author Share Posted August 31, 2005 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Aug 30, 2005 -> 05:58 PM) Aneheim's payroll wasn't exactly top tier and neither was Arizona's in fact they were recieving aid from MLB because they were so far in debt. Arizona is a deceptive case because so many of their salaries were deferred because of extenuating circumstances. I thought Schil and Randy agreed to defer because of the situation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 QUOTE(Greg Hibbard @ Aug 31, 2005 -> 12:01 AM) Arizona is a deceptive case because so many of their salaries were deferred because of extenuating circumstances. I thought Schil and Randy agreed to defer because of the situation Ok, so it's all about money. Why aren't the Mets in first? Why are Seattle and Texas behind Oakland? Hell, why is Anahiem behind Oakland? Why is Cleveland step-for-step playing with the Yankees? Why is Baltimore doing worse than Toronto? Money shouldn't be an excuse, ESPECIALLY for the White Sox. They're the highest payroll in the division. Quit trying to cry poor, there's plenty of money... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsh Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 We went from having a top tier offense the last few years with crappy pitching to the exact opposite. The offense of the last few years wasn't balanced though. We had a bunch of right handed sluggers. If we had Pods, Iguchi along with guys like c.lee,thomas ordonez we would be killing teams like the Cardinals have this year and last. The problem is the sox are forced to improve through trades instead of the FA market so they are always subtracting while adding guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted August 31, 2005 Author Share Posted August 31, 2005 QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Aug 30, 2005 -> 06:09 PM) Ok, so it's all about money. Why aren't the Mets in first? Why are Seattle and Texas behind Oakland? Hell, why is Anahiem behind Oakland? Why is Cleveland step-for-step playing with the Yankees? Why is Baltimore doing worse than Toronto? Money shouldn't be an excuse, ESPECIALLY for the White Sox. They're the highest payroll in the division. Quit trying to cry poor, there's plenty of money... Who said overpriced teams don't underperform? I'm talking about minimum requirements for being a legitimate World Series contender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox311 Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 it occurs to me that you......oh thats too easy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted August 31, 2005 Author Share Posted August 31, 2005 QUOTE(marsh @ Aug 30, 2005 -> 06:14 PM) The problem is the sox are forced to improve through trades instead of the FA market so they are always subtracting while adding guys. How is this mentality acceptable in the city of Chicago? How is it acceptable to say "well, that's just the way things are, we can't afford it..." Bulls***. I'm so sick of feeling like a second tier baseball team because our ownership group refuses to spend more than 80 million dollars. It's f***ing horses***. Meanwhile, the fans keep squinting trying to make Scott Podsednik look like Alex Rodriguez. No matter how hard you look, they're not even in the same f***ing atmosphere. And yeah, I hate A-Rod too for what it's worth. But he's a damn good baseball player, and he's a damn better hitter than anyone we got. Yeah, I like most of the players we got. But they aren't championship caliber. We are short one good hitter and it's because of the fact we didn't land a big enough bat in the offseason. Because we are always forced to accept less. Since when is Chicago a mid-market town? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyWhiteSox Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 QUOTE(Greg Hibbard @ Aug 30, 2005 -> 11:00 PM) How is this mentality acceptable in the city of Chicago? How is it acceptable to say "well, that's just the way things are, we can't afford it..." Bulls***. I'm so sick of feeling like a second tier baseball team because our ownership group refuses to spend more than 80 million dollars. It's f***ing horses***. Me too. I wouldn't mind adding without giving up so much talent. QUOTE(Greg Hibbard @ Aug 30, 2005 -> 11:00 PM) Meanwhile, the fans keep squinting trying to make Scott Podsednik look like Alex Rodriguez. No matter how hard you look, they're not even in the same f***ing atmosphere. And yeah, I hate A-Rod too for what it's worth. But he's a damn good baseball player, and he's a damn better hitter than anyone we got. But that was a horrible comparison, in my opinion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Zelig Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 QUOTE(Greg Hibbard @ Aug 30, 2005 -> 11:00 PM) Yeah, I like most of the players we got. But they aren't championship caliber. We are short one good hitter and it's because of the fact we didn't land a big enough bat in the offseason. Because we are always forced to accept less. Since when is Chicago a mid-market town? Or maybe we lost our DH with over 400 career HRs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosMediasBlancas Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 QUOTE(knightni @ Aug 30, 2005 -> 06:48 PM) It occurs to me that the Marlins recently did it. If you show me that it happens 50% of the time, I'll buy into it. Otherwise, it's the EXCEPTION. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted August 31, 2005 Author Share Posted August 31, 2005 QUOTE(Leonard Zelig @ Aug 30, 2005 -> 10:05 PM) Or maybe we lost our DH with over 400 career HRs? Since when is Frank Thomas a even a .280 hitter? And since when should we be relying on a 37 year old player who has been sidelined with season-ending injuries in the early parts of 2 of the last 3 seasons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Aug 30, 2005 -> 08:09 PM) Ok, so it's all about money. Why aren't the Mets in first? Why are Seattle and Texas behind Oakland? Hell, why is Anahiem behind Oakland? Why is Cleveland step-for-step playing with the Yankees? Why is Baltimore doing worse than Toronto? Money shouldn't be an excuse, ESPECIALLY for the White Sox. They're the highest payroll in the division. Quit trying to cry poor, there's plenty of money... WHY?? Good scouting and development of the farm that why. The Sox haven't been let's say.. Hmmm that good at it lately. After Buehrle and Rowand who else has been developed? No one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 QUOTE(JoshPR @ Aug 30, 2005 -> 11:09 PM) WHY?? Good scouting and development of the farm that why. The Sox haven't been let's say.. Hmmm that good at it lately. After Buehrle and Rowand who else has been developed? No one. Developed? Well, you said developed and not home grown so... Jenks, Cotts, Garland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Aug 31, 2005 -> 12:11 AM) Developed? Well, you said developed and not home grown so... Jenks, Cotts, Garland. Developed through are farm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 QUOTE(JoshPR @ Aug 30, 2005 -> 11:13 PM) Developed through are farm The Sox picked up Jenks when he had fallen out of good graces with the Angels. They changed him to a reliever from a starter and helped him through some troubles, he now looks like a promissing major league talent. Cotts was picked up from Oakland as a pretty OK prospect, the Sox took him in and groomed him for a year in AA then another two years in the majors of development and he is now one of the most dominate lefty relievers in the game. Garland was picked up from the Cubs when he was in A ball. He was a 1st round pick with good potential but still needed to be groomed. He spent 2.2 years in our minors and another 3.8 in the majors with the Sox, developing. The Sox may not have drafted and developed these players but they sure as hell did develop them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 I meant to say Drafted and Developed to the Bigs. Sorry i got a call on my Mobile and shortened my answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 QUOTE(JoshPR @ Aug 30, 2005 -> 11:24 PM) I meant to say Drafted and Developed to the Bigs. Sorry i got a call on my Mobile and shortened my answer Johan Santana and Travis Hafner weren't even originally with the Twins and Indians. Not all teams draft and develop their best players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 (edited) That's were scouting comes in. I don't think the SOx have been the most productive in that sense. You do mention some good names. But how long has it been since the Sox drafted, Developed an impact player? A so called Stud? 1989 And that was Frank Thomas and Early 90's when Maggs came around and still Maggs wasn't an impact player Like Frank Edited August 31, 2005 by JoshPR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 QUOTE(JoshPR @ Aug 30, 2005 -> 11:31 PM) That's were scouting comes in. I don't think the SOx have been the most productive in that sense. You do mention some good names. But how long has it been since the Sox drafted, Developed an impact player? A so called Stud? 1989 And that was Frank Thomas and Early 90's when Maggs came around and still Maggs wasn't an impact palyer Like Frank You're 100% correct, I just felt someone had to argue for the other side. The Sox haven't had a whole hell of a lot of great players come out of their system, it's really quite sad. With a guy like Chris Yound down there I'm both excited and cautious at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 QUOTE(Greg Hibbard @ Aug 30, 2005 -> 06:44 PM) You cannot build a complete world series caliber team today in major league baseball with a second tier payroll. Do not tell Billy Beane. Let him continue to struggle in Oakland with his s*** payroll, and wonder why his team is so godawful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted August 31, 2005 Author Share Posted August 31, 2005 QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Aug 30, 2005 -> 11:35 PM) Do not tell Billy Beane. Let him continue to struggle in Oakland with his s*** payroll, and wonder why his team is so godawful. How many World Series have Billy Beane built team played in? What are his teams' record in the postseason? Therefore, does Oakland fit the definition of "World Series Caliber" team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wsox08 Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 QUOTE(Greg Hibbard @ Aug 30, 2005 -> 05:44 PM) You cannot build a complete world series caliber team today in major league baseball with a second tier payroll. We asked guys like Eldred and Valentin and Perry and Parque and Baldwin to carry us in 2000, and they did that for most of the year. But they are really mediocre players who were just having a pretty good stretch of a season together. Sure it won us a division title. This year, we're asking guys like Podsednik and Dye and Hermanson and Iguchi and Garland and Uribe and Crede to do the same thing. Are they great players? Hardly. Some are above average in some respects, maybe. Some are clearly below average. Have they done some things to win us a lot of ballgames? Sure. It's been a fun ride, and it'll be cool to see the Sox hopefully in the playoffs again. Even if it's another first round sweep. I guess. *sigh* I know attendance has been good and we hopefully will be opening the pocketbook up this offseason, but as a fan, I'm sick of trying to make another $70-80 million payroll team look like a $115 million payroll team. It's what I was doing in 2000, and more and more this August, it seems like it's what I'm doing in 2005. No matter how hard I squint, I still see a lineup that pales in comparison to any other AL contender. I see a pitching staff that is dead tired from trying to carry the team. I see long faces and worn out looks. Is there any hope that one day the Sox will actually spend like they want to win a World Series? Yeah, yeah, I know...Al Belle.....eons ago. Or are we eternally destined to that second tier of payroll...one in which very few (lucky as f***) teams are able to build championship teams with in a non-salary cap baseball environment. Also, I am trying REALLY hard to stay positive. This post is just so f***ed up.. I reall ydoesn't seem like you are TRYING at all to stay positive.. The Yankees have showed you that money doesn't always buy you a championship.. Arizona, Florida, Anaheim and a bunch of runner up teams can show you that as evidence.. David Eckstein.. who ever heard of him before the World Series? :headshake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.