The White Sox Are DONE

[spiderman]

So Buehrle is not an ace because he struggled against Texas.  A lot of pitchers do.  They have the best lineup in the AL.  Also the defense wasn't exactly great behind Buehrle.

 

IMO, Buerhle is not a shut-down pitcher, thus he's not an Ace, but he's clearly our best starting pitcher.

 

Getting back on point, I realize most don't agree with my Buerhle comment, that's fine, we're not going to agree.

 

We now have a 8 game stretch where hopefully we can get on a roll - the Tigers for 4, Red Sox for 1, and the Royals for 3 - this stretch is important for 2 reasons - 1) just getting this thing turned around, and 2) turning around our losing ways at home as well...

 

I'm hoping for no worse than 5-3, hopefully 6-2 in this stretch.

[Milkman delivers]

How many aces are there in baseball? There are 30 number ones, but how many aces?

[3 BeWareTheNewSox 5]

Haha, I love how the only possibility is that we played over our heads the first half, and are not underachieving lately (BTW, don't use the whole 2nd half, 2 four game sweeps on the road happened in the second half, by us), Especially when our playoff lineup and one used most of the first half has been out, ummm, once in the last month?

[spiderman]

How many aces are there in baseball?  There are 30 number ones, but how many aces?

 

Milkman - do you think Buerhle's an ace OR a strong #2 starter like I believe ?

 

Obviously, every team has a #1 starter, but not every #1 starter is an ace.

 

There are probably at least 20 teams in the league that don't have a legitimate ace pitcher.

[Milkman delivers]

Milkman - do you think Buerhle's an ace OR a strong #2 starter like I believe ?

 

Obviously, every team has a #1 starter, but not every #1 starter is an ace.

 

There are probably at least 20 teams in the league that don't have a legitimate ace pitcher.

 

I'd say he's a number 1, but not an ace. This year, though, he may not even be the number 1 on this staff.

[spiderman]

Haha, I love how the only possibility is that we played over our heads the first half, and are not underachieving lately (BTW, don't use the whole 2nd half, 2 four game sweeps on the road happened in the second half, by us), Especially when our playoff lineup and one used most of the first half has been out, ummm, once in the last month?

 

You could be right, but this has been going now for 50+ games, and I think this should be concerning to White Sox fans who hope to not only make the playoffs, but actually win a round or two.

[spiderman]

I'd say he's a number 1, but not an ace.  This year, though, he may not even be the number 1 on this staff.

 

I think he's #1 on our staff, but not an ace - so I think we're close to being on the same page.

 

Be careful though - I've been called an idiot already for suggesting this.

[whitesoxmanager]

OMG i just read 8 pages of how the mods were going to start modding the site against topics like this...."THE WHITE SOX ARE DONE"???

 

Hey mods let's assume that ozzie, kw, any sox player in the organization, hawk were to be passed this topic and asked to respond....hmmmmmm WHAT DO YOU EXPECT AS A REPLY FROM THEM? they might say something politically correct, but i don't have to, so i just want to continue to say it for them, THIS TOPIC IS JUST A USELESS ATTEMPT AND A SLAP IN THE FACE OF THE ENTIRE ORGANIZATION! even if the points are in good taste the topic itself deserves major questioning! CANT YOU MODS PLEASE just recognize that the topic needs to be changed to something like "THE SOX ARE STRUGGLING" which in itself is a no brainer......I would like to contribute to this site, but I really get so frustrated reading posts here!

[spiderman]

OMG i just read 8 pages of how the mods were going to start modding the site against topics like this...."THE WHITE SOX ARE DONE"???

 

Hey mods let's assume that ozzie, kw, any sox player in the organization, hawk were to be passed this topic and asked to respond....hmmmmmm  WHAT DO YOU EXPECT AS A REPLY FROM THEM?  they might say something politically correct, but i don't have to, so i just want to continue to say it for them, THIS TOPIC IS JUST A USELESS ATTEMPT AND A SLAP IN THE FACE OF THE ENTIRE ORGANIZATION!  even if the points are in good taste the topic itself deserves major questioning!  CANT YOU MODS PLEASE just recognize that the topic needs to be changed to something like "THE SOX ARE STRUGGLING"  which in itself is a no brainer......I would like to contribute to this site, but I really get so frustrated reading posts here!

 

We have a cool-aid drinker!

 

I, at no point, criticized any player for anything beyond their performance on the field.

 

I don't think you're being very honest if you want a site where can never criticize a player or team.

 

Try reading again - I have said several times that I hope the Sox turn this around, but you obviously aren't interested in anything but pats on the back for this team.

[whitesoxmanager]

QUOTE(spiderman @ Aug 31, 2005 -> 06:28 PM)

We have a cool-aid drinker!

 

I, at no point, criticized any player for anything beyond their performance on the field.

 

I don't think you're being very honest if you want a site where can never criticize a player or team.

 

Try reading again - I have said several times that I hope the Sox turn this around, but you obviously aren't interested in anything but pats on the back for this team.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

As I drink my coolaid I wonder what kind of Sox fan would ever CLAIM as you put it so incorrectly per verbatim spiderman...."the white sox are done". i don't care what comes after that. do you work for the trib? do you need to really stir up attention to your clever little "the white sox are done" to get a thread started? what kind of cred do you have after you make such a claim? don't ask me jack ask the likes of players in the organization! Actually I would like to see how COOL you are in proclaiming to KW's face that "The White Sox ARE DONE".

 

BTW, exactly what was the motive behind proclaiming "the whitesox are done"? of course we all know that not to be true, but why state something that eats at the heart of a fan? when gooch has a bad game MB doesn't say you are done dude, instead he makes light of the situation and tries to pick em up.

 

Try calling the postgame show and tell em "the whitesox are done" and see how many friends you make! :banghead

[spiderman]

As I drink my coolaid I wonder what kind of Sox fan would ever CLAIM as you put it so incorrectly per verbatim spiderman...."the white sox are done".  i don't care what comes after that.  do you work for the trib?  do you need to really stir up attention to your clever little "the white sox are done" to get a thread started?  what kind of cred do you have after you make such a claim?  don't ask me jack ask the likes of players in the organization!  Actually I would like to see how COOL you are in proclaiming to KW's face that "The White Sox ARE DONE".

 

BTW, exactly what was the motive behind proclaiming "the whitesox are done"?  of course we all know that not to be true, but why state something that eats at the heart of a fan?  when gooch has a bad game MB doesn't say you are done dude, instead he makes light of the situation and tries to pick em up.

 

Try calling the postgame show and tell em "the whitesox are done" and see how many friends you make! :banghead

 

Let me define DONE for you, from my perspective - they should/will make the playoffs, but they're not going anywhere in the playoffs playing the way they've been in the last 50+ games.

 

What kind of White Sox fan would be critical of the White Sox ? One who watches the games, and sees things as they are instead of through rose-colored glasees.

 

If the White Sox were playing better ball, there would be no need to discuss their failings, would there ?

 

I was not trying to bring up anything more than debate my thoughts - which you apparently cannot.

 

How about this ? Let's actually talk about the my points in the original post I made, and you tell me why I'm wrong, why everything's perfect. I am more than willing to discuss them with you.

 

I think we have one thing in common - we both want them to do well, so let's discuss the points I made, or you counter with your own.

[Kalapse]

Kool-Aid not coolaid. Come on now.

[White Sox Josh]

IMO, Buerhle is not a shut-down pitcher, thus he's not an Ace, but he's clearly our best starting pitcher.

 

Getting back on point, I realize most don't agree with my Buerhle comment, that's fine, we're not going to agree. 

 

We now have a 8 game stretch where hopefully we can get on a roll - the Tigers for 4, Red Sox for 1, and the Royals for 3 - this stretch is important for 2 reasons - 1) just getting this thing turned around, and 2) turning around our losing ways at home as well...

 

I'm hoping for no worse than 5-3, hopefully 6-2 in this stretch.

Greg Maddux in his prime wasn't a shutdown pitcher. yet he was an ace. Same with Tommy Glavine.

[spiderman]

Greg Maddux in his prime wasn't a shutdown pitcher.  yet he was an ace.  Same with Tommy Glavine.

 

I'm not sure where you going with this - in their primes, both Tom Glavine and Greg Maddux were both much better stastically than Mark Buerhle -

 

Tom Glavine won 20+ games 5 times, and had ERA's lower than 3.00 6 times;

 

Greg Maddux has been a 20 game winner 2x, (17x 15+), 9 times with an ERA below 3.00.

 

Again, Buerhle has been a really good starting pitcher for the White Sox, but those guys are incredible statistically.

[ZoomSlowik]

Yes, this team has flaws, but so do all of the other teams that are going to be in the playoffs. Boston can hit pretty well, but their starting pitching looks weak unless Schilling gets back to his old form, and even then their pen still doesn't look good. I can see them losing a lot of 5-3 or 6-4 games in the playoffs. Yes, there is the potential to lose 9-4, but that won't happen every game. The Yankees have similar issues with their starters, and we've held their O down in the matchups so far this year. The Angels are a lot like us. Their offense goes through periods when they just can't hit. If you pitch around Vlad, they could really struggle. Also, their rotation doesn't scare me at all outside of Colon. Oakland is another story.

 

I'm not overly worried about our offense if we have all of our guys in the lineup. Yes, we're going to struggle if we have Timo, Willie, Uribe, and Blum in the lineup like today. That simply won't happen in the playoffs (at least it better not ). Honestly, if I'm worried about anything, I'm worried about Cliff's performances of late. He's been getting hit hard since the break. That can't happen in the playoffs.

[White Sox Josh]

I'm not sure where you going with this - in their primes, both Tom Glavine and Greg Maddux were both much better stastically than Mark Buerhle -

 

Tom Glavine won 20+ games 5 times, and had ERA's lower than 3.00 6 times;

 

Greg Maddux has been a 20 game winner 2x, (17x 15+), 9 times with an ERA below 3.00.

 

Again, Buerhle has been a really good starting pitcher for the White Sox, but those guys are incredible statistically.

actually with the exception of the era Buehrle is right where maddux was at this point in his career.

[spiderman]

actually with the exception of the era Buehrle is right where maddux was at this point in his career.

 

And, like you say, Buerhle is often compared to Maddux because of the way they pitch, and I also expect Buerhle to be good for years to come.

[White Sox Josh]

And, like you say, Buerhle is often compared to Maddux because of the way they pitch, and I also expect Buerhle to be good for years to come.

he is an ace PERIOD!

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Kool-Aid not coolaid. Come on now.

 

Good thing you haven't been making any typos recently...

[fathom]

Buehrle would be incredible in the NL.

[ZoomSlowik]

Buehrle would be incredible in the NL.

 

No kidding. The only guy that moved from the NL to the AL I can think of that still dominated was Pedro, and he had ridiculous stuff in his prime (and I guess Schilling for one year, but he still wasn't as dominant). Just look at the difference in performance for guys like Roger Clemens and Randy Johnson.

[Kalapse]

Good thing you haven't been making any typos recently...   

Hey, I've been better today.

[YASNY]

1) I know the price tag is high, and other teams haven't made significant moves, but Kenny Williams needs to do something to upgrade this lineup - even if just gives Ozzie Guillen another bat off the bench, anything! I realize Dmitri Young (or someone similar to him) isn't going to carry a ballclub, but he could be a contributor - right now, playing non-hitters like Geoff Blum, Juan Uribe, Timo Perez, Joe Crede, etc. from basically 6-9, 7-9 in the lineup regularly puts a lot of pressure on the top 6 hitters to do score most/all of the runs, and those guys aren't the type of players capable of doing that.

 

2) As we stand, the offense is pathetic. They do not have a #3 hitter in the lineup, and most of the hitters are #6 or #7 hitters (Dye, Everett, Rowand, Pierzyinski) in a good lineup. They don't usually put up more than a few runs in a game, putting tremendous pressure on the pitching staff to overcome the lack of run production.

 

3) Mark Buerhle is not an ace - he is a good pitcher, but no more than #2 on a pitching staff.

 

4) Jon Garland is pitching how he did last season in the 2nd half. Not consistent at all.

 

5) Freddy Garcia is the same pitcher he's been over his career - he seems to rise up/down according to his competition.

 

6) The White Sox need to make a decision about their closer - Hermanson should have the job, but he obviously isn't healthy. The bullpen has pitched well, but down the stretch I think you have to either go with him, or DL him and hope the team makes the playoffs and gets him back healthier OR go with Bobby Jenks down the stretch.

 

7) With all that, the problem isn't the pitching - yes, it has been uneven, but it can't be expected to win every game 3-2, 4-3. It has not been very often that the White Sox have won comfortably.

 

1. While I agree with you in philosophy here, sometimes we just don't know what is happening in these discussions. For KW to make a trade, the trade has to make sense. Trading McCarthy for Villone does not make any sense whatsoever, yet that's what was proposed. If that's what the market has been like, KW would be foolish to even consider one sided deals like that.

 

2. Agreed. Lately, it has been pretty bad.

 

3. As you can see throughout this thread, that topic is very debateable. I'll say he's borderline as an ace.

 

4. Again agreed. Not sure what we are going to get from Jon when he steps on the mound.

 

5. That bodes well for the playoffs, if we can hold on to make them.

 

6. I don't think they can afford to DL Dusty, nor can they risk handing the job to Jenks. I think they are doing exactly what they should do, which give it to Hermanson when his back is feeling ok and to Jenks when Hermanson isn't available.

 

7. This also bodes well for the playoffs, imho. The playoffs usually are close hard fought games and the Sox have been playing these type of games all year.

[The Critic]

Buehrle would be incredible in the NL.

Yeah. just wait til you see him on the Cardinals....

 

And FWIW, when I looked at this team in the preseason they looked like an 85-87 win team to me.

This has been a very exciting year and I've been thrilled with what they've accomplished, but to not be concerned with what you've seen lately is just sticking your head in the sand.

The offense has been poor, to put it lightly, and the pitching staff is feeling the effects of having to pitch close games all year long. Add to that the lingering back problems to the closer, and this is cause for concern.

On the other hand, that experience of pitching ( and winning ) low-scoring close games has historically paid off in the postseason. And yes, I still believe they'll get to the postseason, if for no other reason than they have 6 games left with both Cleveland and Minny, so they hold their own fate in their hands. And their record against the Central makes me optimistic as well.

 

But I really thought the 9/19 game with the Jndjians would be meaningless when I bought my tickets, and it's looking less likely that game will mean nothing...

[Felix]

I've been a lurker for awhile now, but I figured I sort of had to post in reply to this post. I havent read the entire thread, so excuse me if these points have alreadybeen said.

I've been a Sox fan my whole life even though I'm from New Jersey, as my dad was from Chicago and has raised me a fan of the right team

 

1) I know the price tag is high, and other teams haven't made significant moves, but Kenny Williams needs to do something to upgrade this lineup - even if just gives Ozzie Guillen another bat off the bench, anything! I realize Dmitri Young (or someone similar to him) isn't going to carry a ballclub, but he could be a contributor - right now, playing non-hitters like Geoff Blum, Juan Uribe, Timo Perez, Joe Crede, etc. from basically 6-9, 7-9 in the lineup regularly puts a lot of pressure on the top 6 hitters to do score most/all of the runs, and those guys aren't the type of players capable of doing that.

Yes, the bottom of the lineup isnt exactly filled with top hitters, but dont undervalue them. Geoff Blum is still coming into his own in a Sox uniform, and is mainly played for his defensive value, and ability to play basically every position in the field (I dont think he's ever played centerfield though, but thats about it). He does have moments of big hitting, but for the most part, he's a non-hitter, yes. He has done well in limited AB's in specific situations, such as with runners on third.

On the other hand, Juan Uribe, while he is mostly a big hit or miss hitter, has been pretty effective out of the bottom of the order. He is tied for 5th in the league in RBI for SS's, and just about every SS above him in that list has many more AB's than he does (Peralta is the only exception). Yes, he has been a below average hitter this year, but he has been getting runs in, one way or another. He also has been pretty successful with sacrifices, and has set up the beginning of the order pretty well in that sense.

Timo Perez.. well.. as much as I dont like him, he has come up pretty good in late inning situations. He has done a decent job getting on when it matters, but why he is still in the majors is still a mystery to me.

And Crede is, similar to Uribe, a big hit or miss hitter most of the time.

 

So yes, when the bottom of the lineup is cold, they arent going to be doing much of anything, although when they are heated up, they do have potential to score a good amount of runs.

 

As for Kenny Williams needing to get something done, I agree, but to a point. I dont think the Sox should have gotten Griffey, as I think he is a giant waste of money, especially at the price the Sox would be giving up to get him.

 

2) As we stand, the offense is pathetic. They do not have a #3 hitter in the lineup, and most of the hitters are #6 or #7 hitters (Dye, Everett, Rowand, Pierzyinski) in a good lineup. They don't usually put up more than a few runs in a game, putting tremendous pressure on the pitching staff to overcome the lack of run production.

In my opinion, either Dye, Everett, or Pierzynski should be the #3 hitter in the Sox lineup, and Rowand should be the #5 hitter. Rowand is hitting .307 out of the #5 spot this year, and has been pretty successful there.

I dont know what you mean by "put up more than a few runs in a game", since they are averaging 4.64 runs per game this year. Thats a bit more than a few, and since the Sox pitching as been great this year, its enough.

 

3) Mark Buerhle is not an ace - he is a good pitcher, but no more than #2 on a pitching staff.

An ace on a staff is a pitcher who can go out on any given day and shut down the opponent, and is consistant in doing so. Since becoming a starter, Buehrle has never won less than 14 games (he only won 14 games once, all the rest have been 16 wins or higher) and his ERA has only been over 4.00 once (the same year he won 14 games) and has basically pitched 6 innings or more in most of his starts. That is consistancy. He is an ace.

 

4) Jon Garland is pitching how he did last season in the 2nd half. Not consistent at all.

Garland has to get back into pitching for ground balls. Too many of his pitches have been up in the strike zone, and hitters have been hitting them. To be successful, Garland has to do what Greg Maddux has done throughout his career.. pitch smart and pitch on the corners.

 

5) Freddy Garcia is the same pitcher he's been over his career - he seems to rise up/down according to his competition.

Garcia is pretty consistant. Almost every start he lets up runs in the first few innings, and then shuts down his opponents until the 6th or 7th inning. Then, in the 6th/7th, he lets up a few more runs.

 

6) The White Sox need to make a decision about their closer - Hermanson should have the job, but he obviously isn't healthy. The bullpen has pitched well, but down the stretch I think you have to either go with him, or DL him and hope the team makes the playoffs and gets him back healthier OR go with Bobby Jenks down the stretch.

Hermanson has been a great closer for the Sox this year, although he has had control problems. However, the Sox should put him on the DL for the greater part of September, and try Jenks out in the closer spot. If they want to get far into the playoffs, their bullpen will have to be great, and Hermanson is a key part to this Sox bullpen.

 

- I'm not even sure the White Sox make the playoffs anymore. Sure, they still have a 6.5 game lead, and things could be even worse, but this team doesn't have an ace, is getting up and down performances for Garland, and has a closer who's injured, and haven't been depending on as much.  The hitting is just not getting the job done, end of story. If they do make the playoffs, I see a first round, playoff exit.

I'm pretty certain the Sox will still win the AL Central, and they will still win it by at least 5 games. The Sox will be playing most of their games at home for the rest of the year, and will be playing mostly AL Central teams, which they have dominated. Cleveland is a very streaky team, and this just seems to be another of their hot streaks. Throughout the year, they have gone on hot streaks and cold streaks, and the one they are currently on is about to end.