Well...

[Guest JimH]

I think when a team starts to slide like the Sox have, you need a strong manager at the top to keep everyone together.  From my point of view, Ozzie has not done a good job at that between the attendance comments, Buehrle's whining about cheating, etc.  There are some games where we don't have a chance, no matter who's batting 3rd.  However, I've never thought of Ozzie as a manager who can make decisions during a game that will help the team win.  All I know is that a lot of managers could look good with a bullpen of Cotts, Politte, Jenks, and Hermanson.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wait, hold on here.

 

I'm not buying it.

 

Attendance comments? Do you really think that has one iota to do with a 4 game losing streak? Really?

 

Comments on Buehrle? He said Buehrle shouldn't worry about it, said that Buehrle had all his pitches up in the zone. What exactly should he have said which would've prevented this 4 game slide?

 

His bullpen? You've been drilling him about which guy in the bullpen should be pitching all year long.

 

How do you feel about the managers of the 26 teams that aren't in first place on Sept. 12th?

 

This team has some problems right now, but wow, paranoia is striking deep.

[qwerty]

AJP hit into an amazing amount of double plays last year.  We're lucky he's only hit into the amount he has so far this year.

 

He also hit behind bonds quite often last year.

[Guest JimH]

Or maybe he shouldn't have used 100 pct of what's in the tank for the starting pitcher nearly every game this season?  How many times this season could we have afforded to take out a starting pitcher an inning earlier to maybe save some stamina for the rest of the season.  All I know is I've never seen a team with a double digit lead still pitch their starting pitcher basically the maximum amount of innings during their start.  We have a very good, deep bullpen....but Ozzie seems intent on making sure he gets 7 innings out of his starter every night.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If he took the starters out after 6 innings all year long, I suspect you'd complain about the bullpen being overtaxed. Marte has been hurting all year, Hermanson has the bad back, Jenks wasn't even here until late June or whenever.

 

You're the guy saying play every game to win, they all count, etc. and it's tough to argue that. But now you're saying he should've taken the starters out when they were on a roll, after 75 pitches or so, just because it's the 6th inning?

 

Wow, pretty easy to 2nd and 3rd and 5th guess.

 

How are you gonna be next year, when the race is a lot tighter, when the Sox don't get off to a big division lead or God forbid, are actually not in 1st place since Day One? It's a baseball season, the players are up and down, it's the nature of the game. With the good comes the bad, that's the way it is unfortunately.

[greg775]

Or maybe he shouldn't have used 100 pct of what's in the tank for the starting pitcher nearly every game this season? How many times this season could we have afforded to take out a starting pitcher an inning earlier to maybe save some stamina for the rest of the season. All I know is I've never seen a team with a double digit lead still pitch their starting pitcher basically the maximum amount of innings during their start. We have a very good, deep bullpen....but Ozzie seems intent on making sure he gets 7 innings out of his starter every night.

 

Cmon Fathom, I got to agree with Jim here. Cmon you don't take guys out to save arms later.

Fathom, our team has hit the brick wall.

I do not think Cleveland is gonna win 70 percent of its games. Hopefully they get beat soon and drop 4-5 in a row.

If Cleveland wins 7 of 10 or 8 of 10 the rest of the way, I guess we will blow what was a 15 game lead.

I agree with Jim. The second guessing is ridiculous in some cases.

I hope our guys are coming to the park with fire every day.

I don't know how to gauge that.

But if Mark, Jon and Fred suck now, it's not Oz's fault.

If those 3 suck we probably are going to blow the division.

[fathom]

Jim....I'm one of the few people on this board that have the balls to suggest Ozzie should do something before the actual play instead of playing Monday Morning Quarterback. There have been countless times this season where Ozzie pitched Garcia, Garland, Buehrle, and even Duque for one inning too long for seemingly no reason. Is it a coincidence that they're fading down the stretch? It's too hard to tell.

 

Jim...you know this is the way I am. With the stuff I say on this site, when the Sox are winning, I look like a negative asshole. When they're losing, people line up behind me. Of course, I'm rooting as much as anyone for the Sox to win. Just because I think Ozzie is a terrible manager, it doesn't make me any less of a Sox fan than you or anyone else on this board.

[fathom]

Cmon Fathom, I got to agree with Jim here. Cmon you don't take guys out to save arms later.

Fathom, our team has hit the brick wall.

I do not think Cleveland is gonna win 70 percent of its games. Hopefully they get beat soon and drop 4-5 in a row.

If Cleveland wins 7 of 10 or 8 of 10 the rest of the way, I guess we will blow what was a 15 game lead.

I agree with Jim. The second guessing is ridiculous in some cases.

I hope our guys are coming to the park with fire every day.

I don't know how to gauge that.

But if Mark, Jon and Fred suck now, it's not Oz's fault.

If those 3 suck we probably are going to blow the division.

 

If some of the recent efforts we've seen lately suggest the players are bringing 100 pct energy to the park, then we're not very good at all. My comment about using the full tank is dealing with the fact that Ozzie was managing the starting pitching like we had two relievers healthy in the bullpen. How many times in the last few months has he let his starting pitcher go 7 or 8 innings, even though they had given up a lot of runs or were struggling to just barely get out of the previous inning?

[greg775]

Fathom, I just wonder what kind of manager would please you?

It's not like Oz is re-inventing the wheel.

I disagree with his playing some of the stiffs he's been playing but mostly it's been because of injuries, bad backs, etc.

It does seem like we changed as a team after we built the big lead, resting a lot of guys and playing some stiffs, but it's mostly because they needed the rest with bad backs and groin woes of Pods.

 

I would like to ask you and Jim to address my simplified version of what I believe is the key to us even holding off Cleveland, much less winning in the playoffs.

 

I believe if Mark, Jon and Fred keep this up, we are cooked.

They have to rule and we have to catch the ball.

I'm assuming our offense will continue to be average at best and I'm assuming our bullpen will remain strong.

I see it clear cut: The big 3 must pitch and we must catch. If not ... go ahead and call us the biggest choke since 69 cubs, even though I do not think we are choking.

[fathom]

How are you gonna be next year, when the race is a lot tighter, when the Sox don't get off to a big division lead or God forbid, are actually not in 1st place since Day One?  It's a baseball season, the players are up and down, it's the nature of the game.  With the good comes the bad, that's the way it is unfortunately.

 

The funny thing is that I've been basically saying the same thing for the last few months. While everyone was saying that all the Sox had to do was win 50 pct of their games, etc....I was the person saying that there's no guarantee that the Sox win another game all season. Haven't you seen my post recently which state how Sox fans shouldn't jump off a bridge if they don't make the playoffs this year? I truly don't think that the team this season is a team of destiny, and don't feel like this is a "must win" season. We're a solid team, but for the Sox to have the record they have is one of the biggest surprises in my sports following life.

[scotty22hotty]

I never thought that sox fans could be pussies... then I joined this forum.

=/

Why be sox fans if you have no trust in them?

 

[SleepyWhiteSox]

While everyone was saying that all the Sox had to do was win 50 pct of their games, etc....I was the person saying that there's no guarantee that the Sox win another game all season. 

 

Well, yeah...and it's also possible that team loses every single game, but not probable nor logical...

 

Is your glass even 1/8 full?

[fathom]

Fathom, I just wonder what kind of manager would please you?

It's not like Oz is re-inventing the wheel.

I disagree with his playing some of the stiffs he's been playing but mostly it's been because of injuries, bad backs, etc.

It does seem like we changed as a team after we built the big lead, resting a lot of guys and playing some stiffs, but it's mostly because they needed the rest with bad backs and groin woes of Pods.

 

 

On the field, I want the type of manager that you don't notice, and the type of manager that doesn't need Hawk and DJ to make bulls*** excuses for why he's doing certain things. Here's the one key I've always said I wanted from a manager: to put the team in the best chance to succeed for THAT game (of course, taking into consideration the things off the field like injuries, etc.). I don't feel like Ozzie does a very good job with this. I know I'm not the only one who feels like we've had to overcome our own manager to win some games this year. I want a manager who if your team has a lead between 1 and 3 in the last inning, you put the closer into the game if they're healthy and have been successful that year. If I lose, I'm going down w/my closer and not some lefty who's just as likely to allow the lefty to reach base as he is to get him out.

[fathom]

I never thought that sox fans could be pussies... then I joined this forum.

=/

Why be sox fans if you have no trust in them?

 

 

Here's the funny thing....it doesn't matter what the f*** we say, we have absolutely no impact on the outcome of a game/season. It's the beauty of message boards.

[fathom]

Well, yeah...and it's also possible that team loses every single game, but not probable nor logical...

 

 

 

I know, it was just the point of what I was trying to say. There's no written rule that a team is guaranteed to win 50 pct of their games or that a team can't maintain a hot streak for longer than a month. Some of the posters on here would have made you believe that those are in the MLB handbook.

[nitetrain8601]

Honestly, I'd take Lloyd McLendon(a guy with fire, and is known for smarts) over Ozzie. I like fathom want the same thing in a manager. I know we won't ever get a Bobby Cox, but I want a guy who knows what he's doing. Give me Torre, give me LaRussa, give me McLendon, Leyland, Scosia, Tracy, Brenly, Howe, Randolph, Pinella, (does the list need to go further for me to get the point through? hope not).

[greg775]

OK, fathom let me call you out: who is the manager you describe?

They all f*** up.

They all play percentages.

We're not getting good pitching and we're banged up.

So we're not winning like we did earlier.

We've never really hit the ball all year.

It ain't Oz's fault.

[Hermanson32]

It's dusgusting if El Duque is making his next start. Brandon has done more than enough at this point to be our fifth starter. By the way, I love this site so far. Way better than White Sox Interactive which I was kicked off of for the same comment I just made.

[3E8]

It's dusgusting if El Duque is making his next start. Brandon has done more than enough at this point to be our fifth starter. By the way, I love this site so far. Way better than White Sox Interactive which I was kicked off of for the same comment I just made.

Welcome aboard. You'll have to do a lot worse to be booted here.

[fathom]

OK, fathom let me call you out: who is the manager you describe?

They all f*** up.

They all play percentages.

We're not getting good pitching and we're banged up.

So we're not winning like we did earlier.

We've never really hit the ball all year.

It ain't Oz's fault.

 

Of course all managers are going to make mistakes. Even yours truly makes some mistakes We're banged up? Did I miss something? Besides Frank being out, we're pretty damn healthy compared to most teams. To say none of this is Ozzie's fault is just as wrong as someone say it's all Ozzie's fault. I don't watch other games as closely as I do the Sox, so I can't comment on manager's style. However, I don't see many other managers leave their starting pitchers out in the game so long, even when everyone in the park knows they're done for that day. Also, I don't see many other managers not letting their closer start the 9th.

[sayitaintso]

It's dusgusting if El Duque is making his next start. Brandon has done more than enough at this point to be our fifth starter. By the way, I love this site so far. Way better than White Sox Interactive which I was kicked off of for the same comment I just made.

Welcome to Soxtalk!

[The Ginger Kid]

I do not think Cleveland is gonna win 70 percent of its games. Hopefully they get beat soon and drop 4-5 in a row.

 

Really? Because the "collapse" of the Sox has just as much to do with Cleveland as it does the Sox poor play. The tribe could be playing just as s***ty as the Sox and they'd still have their big lead. I hate to give Cleveland any credit but they've earned it -- they're a better team than the Sox right now, in September, when it counts, and outside of Chicago they could very well wind up being the feel good story of the year in MLB. I will be physically ill if/when it happens. But the truth is that the Sox are playing not to lose. I would bet the indians are licking their chops at a chance to play the sox head on right now. Who wouldn't?

 

I don't blame just Oz but virtually everyone on this team who isn't stepping up. Dye's not showing me dick in terms of leadership. And Carl? He is so f'n lost. And he looks like he's regained the weight he lost last year.

 

this is probably going to get very, very ugly in the next few weeks. I feel worse for us than I do them...we're not getting paid.

[CWSGuy406]

Honestly, I'd take Lloyd McLendon(a guy with fire, and is known for smarts) over Ozzie. I like fathom want the same thing in a manager. I know we won't ever get a Bobby Cox, but I want a guy who knows what he's doing. Give me Torre, give me LaRussa, give me McLendon, Leyland, Scosia, Tracy, Brenly, Howe, Randolph, Pinella, (does the list need to go further for me to get the point through? hope not).

 

You really know nothing about baseball if you're calling for Dusty Baker to replace Guillen. Same with Brenly, and several others on that list.

[fathom]

You really know nothing about baseball if you're calling for Dusty Baker to replace Guillen.  Same with Brenly, and several others on that list.

 

Yeah, Guillen is a bad in-game manager, but guys like Dusty, Brenly, and McClendon are awful all around managers. I'd take Steve Stone as my manager though, and this is coming from someone who hates the Cubs.

[Flash Tizzle]

It's dusgusting if El Duque is making his next start. Brandon has done more than enough at this point to be our fifth starter. By the way, I love this site so far. Way better than White Sox Interactive which I was kicked off of for the same comment I just made.

 

I noticed PaleHoseGeorge has finally lost his mind.

 

In the roadhouse, he's collecting names of people doubting the club and denying them access to the website if they make the postseason.

 

We should start doing this. It would sure root out the "dark clouds."

[CWSGuy406]

Yeah, Guillen is a bad in-game manager, but guys like Dusty, Brenly, and McClendon are awful all around managers.  I'd take Steve Stone as my manager though, and this is coming from someone who hates the Cubs.

 

That's fine, but stupidity like saying Dusty Baker is a better manager then Guillen needs to be called up. Really, that's the dumbest thing someone has said around here in a long, long time.

 

Nite, what happened to "f*** this board, I'll find a new one"?

[jackie hayes]

just get to the playoffs and anything can happen

That is basically my perspective. It's not even interesting speculating on what could have been done, this is the team. And divying up blame for this play... The only question is where to start.

 

But we still look good for the division, and our offense still could get hot at the right times in October. Just gotta cross your fingers. There isn't much to say at this point.