Pledge of Allegiance declared unconstitutional

[southsider2k5]

http://www.nbc5.com/education/4973102/deta...&dpswid=&dppid=

[Kid Gleason]

I think I hate athiests on a mission more than satanists on a mission. :headshake

Edited September 14, 2005 by Kid Gleason

[Balta1701]

Well, I'd say it was bound to happen again.

 

The last time this happened, the ruling was made by a Federal Appeals court, and it made it all the way to the Supreme Court, who promptly punted on making a decision on the issue itself - they chose instead to rule that the parent bringing the case did not in fact have legal standing to bring the case, and issued no decision on the pledge.

 

Hopefully the people bringing this case actually do have the legal standing to bring it, so that we can make the Supreme Court actually rule on it and be done with it.

 

If I were deciding the law, I'd think it was very simple - a school should be able to set aside time in class for students to say the pledge, but it should not be able to force anyone to do so given the reference to God...students should be able to excuse themselves either by their own decision or if their parents request it.

[Chisoxfn]

Whaaa Whaaa Whaaa....screw that judge. All this political correctness BS.

[Wong & Owens]

Well, if I had kids going to PUBLIC school, I wouldn't want them to recite any pledge including a mention of god either. IIRC, the pledge didn't even include the words "under god" until Eisenhower had them put in. Or something like that......

[Balta1701]

Well, if I had kids going to PUBLIC school, I wouldn't want them to recite any pledge including a mention of god either.  IIRC, the pledge didn't even include the words "under god" until Eisenhower had them put in. Or something like that......

While it wasn't put in specifically by Ike...he did sign the bill into law. It happened because of a mixture of the anti-communist movements of the early 50's and an associated religious revival (motivated in part by the desire to be unlike those "Godless" communists). This Piece at least gives some of the backstory.

[Wong & Owens]

While it wasn't put in specifically by Ike...he did sign the bill into law.  It happened because of a mixture of the anti-communist movements of the early 50's and an associated religious revival (motivated in part by the desire to be unlike those "Godless" communists).  This Piece at least gives some of the backstory.

 

 

Good article, thanks for posting the link.

[Kid Gleason]

Do any of us think saying the words are actually harmful to your children? I am not an overly religious person, but until my kids can decide for themselves, I would rather them being taught religion than having them believe that God and the following of a religion is wrong. I think you do more damage to your kid by suing the school system for mentioning God. No matter how you go, you are deciding how the children should think, and I can think of many worse things for them to learn than the words of religion. Like, I don't know...the arrogance of man?

Edited September 14, 2005 by Kid Gleason

[Balta1701]

Do any of us think saying the words are actually harmful to your children? I am not an overly religious person, but until my kids can decide for themselves, I would rather them being taught religion than having them believe that God and the following of a religion is wrong. I think you do more damage to your kid by suing the school system for mentioning God. No matter how you go, you are deciding how the children should think, and I can think of many worse things for them to learn than the words of religion. Like, I don't know...the arrogance of man?

I don't have kids, so I cannot perfectly answer this question, but if I were to attempt to put myself into the shoes of a person who did, and I was attempting to raise my children to follow the same beliefs I hold (something I probably wouldn't do)...then yes, I would consider those words to be actually harmful, in the sense that they would be exactly contrary to the beliefs that I was trying to instill in them.

 

For an example, imagine if the pledge actually said "One Nation Under Vishnu"...how would a Christian Family respond to having their child have to recite a pledge running contrary to the belief system that they were trying to teach their child? On one hand you have the parents saying 1 thing about religion, and on the other hand you have the state encouraging a different religion.

 

Also...by reciting the pledge, the Children are not learning the words of religion, they're reciting a chant expressing religion. They're not learning a thing. Learning the words of religion would entail actually reading a religious text in a class or studying the history of a particular religion, something that should be done with several religions in any quality education plan.

[Wong & Owens]

Do any of us think saying the words are actually harmful to your children?

 

Harmful? No, of course not. But, as we all know, kids are very impressionable, and many things they learn at a young age are things that will stick with them for life. Wouldn't it be better to afford them a "blank page" to work with as they get older, as opposed to any pre-installed bias?

 

I would rather them being taught religion than having them believe that God and the following of a religion is wrong.

 

Not including the words "under god" doesn't mean god or religion are wrong, just that they don't have a place in public schools. It would be like if they added "Go Bears" at the end of the pledge in Chicago. It's not wrong to support the Bears, but that type of thing doesn't belong in a patriotic affirmation in this country

 

I think you do more damage to your kid by suing the school system for mentioning God. No matter how you go, you are deciding how the children should think, and I can think of many worse things for them to learn than the words of religion.

 

I don't think that that is the effect it would have at all. You're not telling kids there is no god, or to not believe in god, you're simply allowing all Americans to believe in the words they speak in support of the USA. If you want to instill a strong religious background in your kids, isn't there better places to do that anyhow?

 

Like, I don't know...the arrogance of man?

There are those people(myself included) that would point to the creation of religion as the greatest evidence of the statement you make here. Not saying this to flame you, just pointing out a different perspective.

[Kalapse]

As a youngster I recited The Pledge of Allegence everyday in Grammer School, Junior High and my first year in High School. I'd say 99.999% of kids don't even pay attention to what the words mean, they just recite it every morning when they come into school. Hell I did it my entire childhood and it hasn't enfluenced me or anyone I know in the least.

[Wong & Owens]

As a youngster I recited The Pledge of Allegence everyday in Grammer School, Junior High and my first year in High School. I'd say 99.999% of kids don't even pay attention to what the words mean, they just recite it every morning when they come into school. Hell I did it my entire childhood and it hasn't enfluenced me or anyone I know in the least.

 

 

You know, that's a good point. I said it every day in catholic grammar school and catholic high school, and I'm as atheist as it gets.

[southsideirish71]

Great the Rev. Douche Newdow is back at it again. He first tried to use his kid, then he tried to use someone elses kid. This guy needs a new hobby. Maybe he can tackle the e plurbius enum as the next act because not everyone speaks latin.

 

 

The Rev. Douche

 

Edited September 14, 2005 by southsideirish71

[Wong & Owens]

Great the Rev. Douche Newdow is back at it again.  He first tried to use his kid, then he tried to use someone elses kid.  This guy needs a new hobby.  Maybe he can tackle the e plurbius enum as the next act because not everyone speaks latin. 

The Rev. Douche

 

 

 

I thought that guy was an atheist? What the hell is the Universal Life Church?

[southsideirish71]

I thought that guy was an atheist?  What the hell is the Universal Life Church?

 

 

This is from his website. I dont get it. The so called atheist is a Rev.

 

9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals LOL The most reversed court in America.

Edited September 14, 2005 by southsideirish71

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

I really find it ironic that the left is spazzing out about 2 words in the pledge of allegiance complaining about how "impressionable" kids are. I do because at the same time they are filling up kids with a bunch of revisionist history which teaches them to hate America and preaching "tolerance" for anything and everything EXCEPT for the Judeao Christian values this country was founded on.

 

 

Newdow, and anyone who agrees with him can go straight to hell.

[Wong & Owens]

I do because at the same time they are filling up kids with a bunch of revisionist history which teaches them to hate America and preaching "tolerance" for anything and everything EXCEPT for the Judeao Christian values this country was founded on. 

Newdow, and anyone who agrees with him can go straight to hell.

 

 

This WAS a civil discussion on both sides until this interjection. First off, we get it, you're the "I say whatever's on my mind and I don't care what anyone thinks" cowboy. Good for you. Consider your reputation cemented.

 

That being said, I don't know this Newdow guy well enough to say I agree with everything he says, but I do agree with him on this point. I don't think much of your assessment that I should then go to hell, because you're essentially telling me to go to fantasy island, or neverland, or atlantis.

 

I guess I'm a member of the "left" and I certainly don't hate America, and I don't have any problem with many of the Judeo-Christian values this country was founded on, although the values the country was founded on also included slave ownership, would you like to bring that back too?

 

Your broadbrush ranting is boring. And your response to this thread is ridiculous and ignorant. It smacks of extremism. You should go back to Iraq, they like extremism there.

[WilliamTell]

This is rediculous, if you don't want to say it, then don't. If you want to say someone else, then say someone else. Don't take it away from the people that want to say it.

[farmteam]

Sorry, SS, but this is just RIGHT THERE.

 

...I've never heard of the Pledge of Allegence.

 

Sorry man, but it's right there.

[Wong & Owens]

This is rediculous, if you don't want to say it, then don't. If you want to say someone else, then say someone else. Don't take it away from the people that want to say it.

 

Not a bad idea, but I think there's some logistical problems with that somehow. Not sure how exactly though lol.

[Nokona]

This is rediculous, if you don't want to say it, then don't. If you want to say someone else, then say someone else. Don't take it away from the people that want to say it.

 

Kids who sit during the pledge are always looked at as "different." I don't believe in the Under God part, but sitting just for that is dumb. Respect the country.

 

Personally, I just stand and stare at the flag because I'm too lazy to recite it. That and they made me get up 10 seconds after i just sat down for 2nd period.

[JUGGERNAUT]

The consensus of historical evidence strongly suggests that a balance was intended that would tilt to the free exercise part of the clause. The main concern was to prevent what was happening under British rule to non-Anglicans:

1)exclusion from groups

2) denial of rights pertaining to personal liberty

3) denial or rights pertaining to personal property.

4) prejudice in the work place

5) unfair taxation

 

It serves no purpose for the common good to interpret the establishment & free exercise clause such that it is reasonable to censor speech or deny a right to assembly.

 

This is mainly an idealogical debate. Should individual rights be so broadly defined such that they can deny peaceful assembly & expression of free speech? It is commonly accepted that the pledge, the Our Father, a moment of silence or mentioning God in the classroom to define purpose & meaning to science & mathematics are considered peaceful acts. It is commonly accepted that God represents, love, understanding, & knowledge.

 

The majority of Americans believe there is room for the pledge, prayer, & God in the classroom.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Stepping away from the ideological debate for a minute, I can't help but marvel at the timeliness of this decision. What better time is there to drive Americans to fear the loss of their religious liberties at the hands of Godless democrats than the Roberts confirmation hearings?

 

This will probably have little impact on Roberts becoming the next chief justice. It will have much greater impact on O Connor's replacement. Newdow & friends just handed Bush the ammunition he needs to nominate a religious conservative in O'Connor's stead.

[Heads22]

What better time is there to drive Americans to fear the loss of their religious liberties at the hands of Godless democrats than the Roberts confirmation hearings? 

 

 

Yup, we're all god-hating freedom-hating giant douches.

[Queen Prawn]

Damn, all these years and I never knew I was Godless. :rolly