DBAHO Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 QUOTE(JoshPR @ Sep 16, 2005 -> 02:08 PM) Garcia is another #2 starter. As i Said we got 2 #2's 2#3's and a 5 Which is still better then a lot of other teams in this league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 Mark Buehrle is slowing his arm motion on his change up. It has nothing to do with not being an Ace or being tired. When you know what is coming, the odds are much better that you are going to hit it. He needs to go back to the tape he watch of Santana and figure out what he was doing to tip off that pitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yossarian Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 QUOTE(mmmmmbeeer @ Sep 15, 2005 -> 06:09 PM) Mark is a solid #2 and a decent #1. If the definition of 'ace' in baseball terms is a #1 on a team's pitching staff, then Mark is an ace. Rather, if it pertains to a stopper, Mark has proven he is not an ace. What he said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Sep 16, 2005 -> 08:09 AM) Mark Buehrle is slowing his arm motion on his change up. It has nothing to do with not being an Ace or being tired. When you know what is coming, the odds are much better that you are going to hit it. He needs to go back to the tape he watch of Santana and figure out what he was doing to tip off that pitch. You mean to tell me with all the scouts we have, video tape review, and the fact that we have a few coaches and a catcher watching all this, they cannot see this and remedy it. If you are tipping this much it should be easy to see then for our staff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Sep 16, 2005 -> 09:32 AM) You mean to tell me with all the scouts we have, video tape review, and the fact that we have a few coaches and a catcher watching all this, they cannot see this and remedy it. If you are tipping this much it should be easy to see then for our staff. If DJ can see it, our staff can see it. Fixing a mechanical flaw isn't as easy as posting on a message board, or we would all be ace pitchers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Sep 17, 2005 -> 12:45 AM) If DJ can see it, our staff can see it. Fixing a mechanical flaw isn't as easy as posting on a message board, or we would all be ace pitchers. It took over 2 years for Neal Cotts to get it right, right (gulp)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Sep 16, 2005 -> 10:00 AM) It took over 2 years for Neal Cotts to get it right, right (gulp)? Jose Contreras had the problem of tipping his splitter for about a year and a half. It happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bias Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 I am just as pissed, frustrated, concerned or whatever you want to call it as anybody but I don't see the point of this thread. I'm not trying to tell people what they should or should not discuss, I just don't see the need to pile on. It's not just M.B. who has struggled, the entire team has sucked ass for weeks now! Guys bootin' routine grounders, OFs making horrendous errors, balks, wild pitches, base running blunders, terrible throws to the plate etc etc. If we wanted to we could probably say something 'bout each player on the Sox like so and so isn't a 3 hitter, so and so isn't a run producer, so and so doesn't have a great arm or whatever someone's weakness is but what's the point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Sep 16, 2005 -> 07:09 AM) Mark Buehrle is slowing his arm motion on his change up. It has nothing to do with not being an Ace or being tired. When you know what is coming, the odds are much better that you are going to hit it. He needs to go back to the tape he watch of Santana and figure out what he was doing to tip off that pitch. At least I'm not the only one who thinks Mark's problems are almost totally in his mechanics, and that it's not his arm being worn out or something else that wouldn't make sense given the pitcher we're talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Sep 16, 2005 -> 10:46 AM) At least I'm not the only one who thinks Mark's problems are almost totally in his mechanics, and that it's not his arm being worn out or something else that wouldn't make sense given the pitcher we're talking about. Actually it was your posts about his historical innings pitched that finished convincing me it was mechanical. If this were his first year of throwing a bunch of innings that would be one thing. He is way over 900 innings in the last 4 full years, so he is used to the work. Plus Mark was getting hit way to hard to be just having a bad outing. The Royals knew what was coming, that was obvious to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitetrain8601 Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Sep 16, 2005 -> 10:15 AM) Actually it was your posts about his historical innings pitched that finished convincing me it was mechanical. If this were his first year of throwing a bunch of innings that would be one thing. He is way over 900 innings in the last 4 full years, so he is used to the work. Plus Mark was getting hit way to hard to be just having a bad outing. The Royals knew what was coming, that was obvious to me. Maybe pitching all those innings finally got to him. He has pitched the most innings since 2001, remember that. Guys can't consistantly pitch as many innings as he has for years without getting some type of injury or tired arm. This may be the year that he has it. Who knows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Sep 16, 2005 -> 01:32 PM) Maybe pitching all those innings finally got to him. He has pitched the most innings since 2001, remember that. Guys can't consistantly pitch as many innings as he has for years without getting some type of injury or tired arm. This may be the year that he has it. Who knows? Many guys have put much harder innings on their arms for much longer periods of time, and still been fine. Roger Clemens is still doing it at 15 years older than Buehrle. And keep in mind a speed difference that you get from a tired arm isn't going to affect a guy like Mark Buehrle nearly as much as a guy who has a big fastball. Buehrle is all about placement and deception. Everyone in the world knows that his pitches aren't that great on their own. Its not like Bobby Jenks who can tell you his fastball is coming and you would still miss it. If you know Buehrle is throwing a fastball, it is pedestrian at best. The thing that makes Buehrle hard to hit is not knowing whether you are getting a 90 mph fastball, or a 76 mph change up out of the same motion and release point. It is the speed differential that gets you, not the speed itself. If he had a dead arm, the speed on his fastball would be down into the mid 80s and its not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitetrain8601 Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Sep 16, 2005 -> 12:43 PM) Many guys have put much harder innings on their arms for much longer periods of time, and still been fine. Roger Clemens is still doing it at 15 years older than Buehrle. And keep in mind a speed difference that you get from a tired arm isn't going to affect a guy like Mark Buehrle nearly as much as a guy who has a big fastball. Buehrle is all about placement and deception. Everyone in the world knows that his pitches aren't that great on their own. Its not like Bobby Jenks who can tell you his fastball is coming and you would still miss it. If you know Buehrle is throwing a fastball, it is pedestrian at best. The thing that makes Buehrle hard to hit is not knowing whether you are getting a 90 mph fastball, or a 76 mph change up out of the same motion and release point. It is the speed differential that gets you, not the speed itself. If he had a dead arm, the speed on his fastball would be down into the mid 80s and its not. Isn't it fair to say that if you have a tired arm or injury that it messes up your mechanics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Sep 16, 2005 -> 01:49 PM) Isn't it fair to say that if you have a tired arm or injury that it messes up your mechanics? If he had a tired arm, it would show up on the radar gun, and it hasn't so far. Also I am not sure what kind of mechanical problem due to a tired arm would cause you to slow your arm motion on a change up, but not on a fastball? His fastball is still hitting 89-91 consistantly on the gun, so he is still throwing his normal speeds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yossarian Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 QUOTE(JoshPR @ Sep 15, 2005 -> 10:08 PM) Garcia is another #2 starter. As i Said we got 2 #2's 2#3's and a 5 Would you say Contreras and Garland as 3's? El Duque a 5? If yes then I agree with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 (edited) I'm going to come to Mark's defense here. He's performed as well as or better than pretty much any pitcher in the AL this season. He has 15 wins, which ties him for 4th in the AL, and that could have been higher if he didn't get screwed out of a couple of wins earlier. His ERA is the third best among qualifying starters in the AL, and is only .04 higher than the great Johan Santana (by the way, it appears that Santana has a blister problem, so we may or may not see him Saturday, and he might not be at his best even if he starts). Also, his numbers could be even better if he were not victimized by some poor defense in previous starts. I don't really think he's been pitching that bad anyways. He was okay last night, but the defense didn't exactly do him any favors. Pretty much every time the runners were taking an extra base on the outfielders. Some of those balls shouldn't have been doubles, and some of those guys shouldn't have been able to score from first. If our guys throw out or hold just 2 or 3 of those guys, it might have been a different start. Was it Mark's best outing? No. Was it his worst? No. I personally didn't think either of his pitches that Brown hit for a double were that bad, but he hit them, and the outfielders made sure maximum damage was done. The guy has been a monster for us most of the season, and we're panicking about a couple of bad starts that are coming at the wrong time. As someone said, this isn't all Mark's fault. We do, however, need some solid performances from Mark, Jon, Freddy (who frankly I've been the most upset with recently), and everyone else in the near future. Edited September 16, 2005 by ZoomSlowik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 See today's game for definition of ace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 QUOTE(3E8 @ Sep 17, 2005 -> 11:37 AM) See today's game for definition of ace. Buehrle can shut teams down just as well as Santana did today (albiet, with fewer strikeouts.) He just hasn't done it lately at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Sep 17, 2005 -> 02:05 PM) Buehrle can shut teams down just as well as Santana did today (albiet, with fewer strikeouts.) So can any pitcher in MLB. But they don't do it consistently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitetrain8601 Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Sep 17, 2005 -> 01:05 PM) Buehrle can shut teams down just as well as Santana did today (albiet, with fewer strikeouts.) He just hasn't done it lately at all. I don't think so. Buehrle always gives up hits and his K numbers are low. Buehrle is a strong benefactor of the players around him. Santana is a guy who could go and get k's for half the outs if need be. Buehrle is not in the same ballpark as Santana. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ottawa_sox Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 Mark has been giving up a lot more hits and base runners lately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba Philips Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 Mark has been giving up a lot more hits and base runners lately. [/quote It was mentioned on the radio by Farmer the sox pitchers are not going inside as much throwing to both sides of the plate. When Buehrle hit hafner in the face he stopped going inside. He hasn't pitched with as much confidence since then. It is Mark's problem to solve but he needs to start going back inside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 QUOTE(ottawa_sox @ Sep 17, 2005 -> 01:41 PM) Mark has been giving up a lot more hits and base runners lately. That's an understatement. It's to the point now that I'm shocked when he doesn't give up atleast 10 hits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toto Testosterone Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 Buerhle was not only an ace but AL's Cy Young. About to go to 11-1 with a 2.30 ERA,... Then he threw a DP into CF in Oakland, blowing a 2-0 lead in the process. Pretty much sucked thereafter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyWhiteSox Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 QUOTE(Toto Testosterone @ Sep 17, 2005 -> 04:06 PM) Buerhle was not only an ace but AL's Cy Young. About to go to 11-1 with a 2.30 ERA,... Then he threw a DP into CF in Oakland, blowing a 2-0 lead in the process. Pretty much sucked thereafter. Yep. And welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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