Mark Buerhle's an Ace ????

[White Sox Josh]

Especially with Pujols on his team

ok please stop now.

[whitesoxfan99]

exactly.  Plus Zambrano is so inconsistent.  He goes through stretches where he is lights out and than stretches where he gets absolutley bombed.  Buehrle at his worst will at least keep you in the game.

 

I fail to see how Mark's any more consistent than Zambrano.

 

Mark's monthly totals April 3.89 ERA, May 2.44, June .96, July 5.01, August 3.46, and September 4.97

 

Zambrano April 4.31, May 2.40, June 5.79, July 2.11, August 1.74, September 3.94

 

2004

Buehrle-April 5.93, May 1.58, June 5.79, July 2.58, August 5.35, and September 2.44

 

Zambrano April 3.55, May 1.71, June 2.86, July 3.44, August 3.61, September 1.01, and one start in October where he had a 7.94 ERA.

[RockRaines]

I would rather have zambrano. He was downright dominant last year, and is good this year. The guy is impressive.

[White Sox Josh]

Bottom Line: Mark Buehrle will win a hell of a lot more games in his career than Zambrano.

[ZoomSlowik]

I fail to see how Mark's any more consistent than Zambrano.

 

Mark's monthly totals April 3.89 ERA, May 2.44, June .96, July 5.01, August 3.46, and September 4.97

 

Zambrano April 4.31, May 2.40, June 5.79, July 2.11, August 1.74, September 3.94

 

2004

Buehrle-April 5.93, May 1.58, June 5.79, July 2.58, August 5.35, and September 2.44

 

Zambrano April 3.55, May 1.71, June 2.86, July 3.44, August 3.61, September 1.01, and one start in October where he had a 7.94 ERA.

 

Check out the game logs though. He comes up with some brutal starts, and racks up some monster pitch counts. 5 earned in 6 innings at Pit? 4 earned in 3 1/3 at Washington? 8 earned in 2 2/3 at Miluakee? For someone that supposedly has so much talent, he fails to make it through the 6th inning quite a bit.

[White Sox Josh]

Check out the game logs though. He comes up with some brutal starts, and racks up some monster pitch counts. 5 earned in 6 innings at Pit? 4 earned in 3 1/3 at Washington? 8 earned in 2 2/3 at Miluakee? For someone that supposedly has so much talent, he fails to make it through the 6th inning quite a bit.

also remember the game he pitched against the Sox. He threw a 1 hitter. But he also walked like 5 guys so that pretty much means he allowed 6 baserunners. He had to come out after 7 innings because his pitch count was so high. Buehrle probably completes that game.

[fathom]

also remember the game he pitched against the Sox.  He threw a 1 hitter.  But he also walked like 5 guys so that pretty much means he allowed 6 baserunners.  He had to come out after 7 innings because his pitch count was so high.  Buehrle probably completes that game.

 

Who gives a s***, he didn't allow any runs. Sometimes, it's not a bad thing to walk a batter (no matter what DJ says in the 9th inning). Especially during a game where the opposing team's pitcher had to bat, it's not really a bad thing to pitch around the lower part of the order.

[ZoomSlowik]

Who gives a s***, he didn't allow any runs.  Sometimes, it's not a bad thing to walk a batter (no matter what DJ says in the 9th inning).  Especially during a game where the opposing team's pitcher had to bat, it's not really a bad thing to pitch around the lower part of the order.

 

The Cubs lost that game. Because they had to pull him, the Cubs' horses*** bullpen came in and blew the game. That's a major reason to give a s***. The Sox couldn't touch him, but because he often struggles with his control he wasn't available to finish the game. Another inning or two would have made a big difference. Beuhrle has gotten through at least the 6th inning in every start this year. Zambrano failed to do that 6 times. That's a lot of unnecessary pressure on your bullpen from someone that is supposedly a top pitcher.

Edited September 21, 2005 by ZoomSlowik

[fathom]

The Cubs lost that game. Because they had to pull him, the Cubs' horses*** bullpen came in and blew the game. That's a major reason to give a s***. The Sox couldn't touch him, but because he often struggles with his control he wasn't available to finish the game. Another inning or two would have made a big difference.

 

He went 7 innings, and didn't allow a run. No matter how you want to try and use that statistic to make your case, that's a fantastic start. That's an even better start than what Prior did the next day, when he went the whole game and allowed 3 runs. It's not like he was only able to go 5 innings because of his pitch count that game.

[ZoomSlowik]

He went 7 innings, and didn't allow a run.  No matter how you want to try and use that statistic to make your case, that's a fantastic start.  That's an even better start than what Prior did the next day, when he went the whole game and allowed 3 runs.  It's not like he was only able to go 5 innings because of his pitch count that game.

 

Prior won, Zambrano didn't. Tell me which start really means more to the team. That's one of his best outings of the year, and he still struggled enough that he couldn't finish off the game. Are you trying to say that 7 innings of shutout ball isn't as important as 9 innings of shutout or 1 run ball? With better command that probably would have been the result of that outing.

[whitesoxfan99]

Check out the game logs though. He comes up with some brutal starts, and racks up some monster pitch counts. 5 earned in 6 innings at Pit? 4 earned in 3 1/3 at Washington? 8 earned in 2 2/3 at Miluakee? For someone that supposedly has so much talent, he fails to make it through the 6th inning quite a bit.

Buehrle does go 6 innings more often than Zambrano but I fail to see hot that makes him more consistent.

 

2003 season, games posting an ERA higher than 4.50. I considered 8 innings with 4 ER a quality start

Zambrano 10

Buehrle 11

 

2004

Zambrano 7

Buehrle 10

 

2005

Zambrano 9

Buehrle 10

 

Didn't pitch 6 innings

2003

Zambrano 5

Buehrle 6

 

2004

Zambrano 2

Buehrle 1

 

2005

Zambrano 6

Buehrle 1

 

Starts allowing 5 or more earned runs

2003

Zambrano 6

Buehrle 8 plus 2 games where he allowed 5 or more runs total

 

2004

Zambrano 4 plus 1 5 total

Buehrle 9 plus 1 10 total

 

2005

Zambrano 5

Buehrle 5 plus 5 other starts where he allowed 5 or more total runs

 

Also, Innings per start

2003

Zambrano 6.69

Buehrle 6.57

 

2004

Zambrano 6.77

Buehrle 7

 

2005

Zambrano 6.77

Buehrle 7.16

 

Read into this what you will but I still think people are over stating Zambrano's inconsistency as well as Buehrle's consistency. Buehrle consistenly goes six innings, that doesn't make him a consistent pitcher.

Edited September 21, 2005 by whitesoxfan99

[fathom]

Prior won, Zambrano didn't. Tell me which start really means more to the team. That's one of his best outings of the year, and he still struggled enough that he couldn't finish off the game. Are you trying to say that 7 innings of shutout ball isn't as important as 9 innings of shutout or 1 run ball? With better command that probably would have been the result of that outing.

 

Prior gave up 3 runs, Zambrano gave up 0! I'll take the 7-0 before the 9-3 every single time from my starter. How is it Zambrano's fault that his bullpen couldn't get 6 outs? I'd much rather have my pitcher walk the occasional batter than to just pipe the pitch on the 3-2, and let the batter hit it as far as they can. Ask Mark Buehrle about that!

[White Sox Josh]

Prior gave up 3 runs, Zambrano gave up 0!  I'll take the 7-0 before the 9-3 every single time from my starter.  How is it Zambrano's fault that his bullpen couldn't get 6 outs?  I'd much rather have my pitcher walk the occasional batter than to just pipe the pitch on the 3-2, and let the batter hit it as far as they can.  Ask Mark Buehrle about that!

i will take the win. If Zambrano had better control he would've been able to pitch a complete game or at least got it to Dempster.

[Milkman delivers]

i will take the win.  If Zambrano had better control he would've been able to pitch a complete game or at least got it to Dempster.

 

I'm not sure I even understand what's going on here. You're asking more out of a guy than to go 7 scoreless innings, with one hit?

[ZoomSlowik]

You apparently don't seem to care how many innings that a starter goes as long as he is good. I'm trying to say that there is a big difference between going 6 or 7 and going 8 or 9. If Carlos hadn't walked his 5 guys that game, his pitch count would have been lower, meaning he probably would have been able to go at least one more inning. When your bullpen sucks as bad as the Cubs' has for long stretches this year, that is important. Would you have trusted the pen the next day in a one run game? I know I wouldn't. That's why Prior going a little deeper was important. Obviously I'd rather have 1 or 0 runs allowed than 3, but I'd also rather have more innings from the guy if I can get them. Often times he isn't even there for the seventh. The point I'm trying to make is that even when Zambrano is on, he might only go 6 because often times he is effectively wild, while when Buehrle is on he'll go at least 7. Plus if Zambrano pitched like this in the AL where he doesn't have the luxary of a sure out in the pitcher, his numbers would suffer.

 

God, I need to get off this topic.

[fathom]

Simply put: You allow your pitcher to go as many innings as they can while they still look sharp without having them throw too many pitches. If all the pitcher gives you in 7 innings, it's still a PHENOMENAL start if they give up zero runs. If the names were switched, and Buehrle went 7-0, I bet you wouldn't be as critical as you seem to be.

[whitesoxfan99]

You apparently don't seem to care how many innings that a starter goes as long as he is good. I'm trying to say that there is a big difference between going 6 or 7 and going 8 or 9. If Carlos hadn't walked his 5 guys that game, his pitch count would have been lower, meaning he probably would have been able to go at least one more inning. When your bullpen sucks as bad as the Cubs' has for long stretches this year, that is important. Would you have trusted the pen the next day in a one run game? I know I wouldn't. That's why Prior going a little deeper was important. Obviously I'd rather have 1 or 0 runs allowed than 3, but I'd also rather have more innings from the guy if I can get them. Often times he isn't even there for the seventh. The point I'm trying to make is that even when Zambrano is on, he might only go 6 because often times he is effectively wild, while when Buehrle is on he'll go at least 7. Plus if Zambrano pitched like this in the AL where he doesn't have the luxary of a sure out in the pitcher, his numbers would suffer.

 

God, I need to get off this topic.

 

Zambrano has more starts of 8 innings or more than Buehrle this year.

Zambrano has 12 and Buehrle has 10.

Buehrle has 22 starts where he has pitched 7 innings or more. Zambrano has 21 such starts.

Edited September 21, 2005 by whitesoxfan99

[JoshPR]

Cubs Ace like it or not is Prior- All of Buehrle's stats are better than Prior's this year.  He is much better than Prior IMHO.

 

Red Sox? Schilling has sucked this year but he is an Ace- he has sucked this year. (Had a bad year but is a proven ace)

 

Yanks? Forgot a guy named Randy Johnson- Buehrle has better stats (Stats don't make an ACE. Check out Jeff Suppan's stats. Is he an ACE?)

 

 

Brewers? Ben Sheets Baby (Of course he got hurt)- Never won 14 games but is a very good pitcher.  Wouldn't take him over Buehrle just yet. I would, give him the hitting buehrle has had. Of course the brewers are bad that's why. Again only looking at  Stats

 

A's? Barry Zito, but i think he's more in Mark's mold

 

Potential Aces (POTENTIAL I MEAN IN THE FUTURE, NEXT YEAR OR SO)

 

 

Royals Zack Greinke- He has sucked this year (Maddux sucked in 86 too)

 

Mariners Felix Hernandez- He is a ROOKIE

 

Tampa Bay Scott Kazmir- Not a great year.

 

Pirates Oliver Perez- He has had a brutal year

 

Nats John Patterson- Huh?  He is good because he pitches in the best pitchers park in baseball (Really? Now go look at the stats, almost 9 k's per 9 innings, 2 somethign ERA)

 

Tigers Jeremy Bonderman- Again his stats are better.

 

A's Rich Harden- Has never sustained his success over a full season. (Got ACE's stuff as does almost all on this list)

 

 

Ok Ok Let me see if I get understood here.

[White Sox Josh]

Ok Ok Let me see if I get understood here. 

stuff doesn't mean jacks*** ifyou don't know how to pitch: Case in point would be Kerry Wood.

[ZoomSlowik]

Zambrano has more starts of 8 innings or more than Buehrle this year. 

Zambrano has 12 and Buehrle has 10.

Buehrle has 22 starts where he has pitched 7 innings or more.  Zambrano has 21 such starts.

 

This is my last post on this subject. First off, you brought up several numbers a few posts ago. We already concluded a while ago that earned runs in the NL are not equal to earned runs in the AL. Most of those are a bit scewed in Zambrano's favor. The NL has had a lower ERA than the AL every year since like 1975. Obviously that's going to mean some more runs show up for the AL starter somewhere. Johan Santana has the 11 lowest ERA in baseball, with 9 of the players ahead of them playing in the NL.

 

Some of them also included unearned runs, which I'm not concerned with. The pitchers have no control over the defense whatsoever, so I'm not going to count that against them. This stat would also be in favor of Zambrano because he's a bit more of a strikeout pitcher. Before you say that they don't have control of the pen either, I brought that up because the pitcher DOES have some control over how deep into an outing he goes. And yes, Zambrano does go deep into games with some regularity, because he has great stuff, but he also usually racks up monster pitch counts when he does it, and he comes up with a short outing pretty regularly. Trust me, Zambrano is fairly inconsistent (he's on my fantasy team), and it is pretty maddening.

 

As for the comment about Buehrle, yes, I generally would be happy with a 7 inning, no run outing. It is a very good start. However, two things to note. First, I didn't bring up this example. I'm simply trying to defend his point. Second, if we had lost the game, I'd be pretty pissed regardless.