Step it Up El Duque!!!!!

[Toto Testosterone]

Not even the biggest Ozzie apologists will be able to justify Duque starting again. He's the worst manager I've ever seen, and I was saying that 2 months ago

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

2 months? Try 15.

 

If only Ozzie's managerial ineptitude was limited to his Dusty-esque treatment of Duque - except, Dusty grossely mishandled Prior, a young & then-healthy stud not a 45 year old cripple; and it's not as if Dusty had Jenks, Cotts, Polite, Hermanson, Bajenaru and (since May, anyway) Vizcaino at his disposal - then the Sox would be in GREAT shape.

 

Alas, Ozzie has failed in just about every sense, including what was supposed to be his only strong suit - ie. kicking ass and forcing people to, among other things, stop blatantly swinging for the LF fence, Uribe and Crede in particular.

 

His failures are well-documented and most of them were FIRST-guessed, too.

Edited September 17, 2005 by Toto Testosterone

[fathom]

2 months? Try 15. 

 

If only Ozzie's managerial ineptitude was limited to his Dusty-esque treatment of Duque - except, Dusty grossely mishandled Prior,  a young & then-healthy stud not a 45 year old cripple; and it's not as if Dusty had Jenks, Cotts, Polite, Hermanson, Bajenaru and (since-may, anyway) Vizcaino at his disposal...... then the Sox would be in GREAT shape.

 

Alas, Ozzie has failed in just about every sense, including what was supposed to be his only strong suit - ie. kicking ass and forcing people to, among other things, stop blatantly swinging for the LF fence, Uribe and Crede in particular. His failures are well-documented and most of them were FIRST-guessed, too.

 

Trust me, I never liked Ozzie's managing. When I mentioned the 2 month aspect, it was just to state that I disliked him even before we started struggling.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Well, we all know El Duque is beyond done. But we would've lost this game regardless of who pitched. Johan Santana is this team's daddy. He's 4-0 against us with an era of like 1. This team can't hit elite pitching for s***.

[fathom]

Well,  we all know El Duque is beyond done.  But we would've lost this game regardless of who pitched.  Johan Santana is this team's daddy.  He's 4-0 against us with an era of like 1.  This team can't hit elite pitching for s***.

 

Well, we face him again, so that's another loss.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Brando and Jabroni in one thread. Who would have guessed it?

[Jordan4life_2007]

Well, we face him again, so that's another loss.

 

No doubt about it. You would think a team would be able to make some damn adjustments after you've seen him a few times. But this is the White Sox we're talking about.

[fathom]

No doubt about it.  You would think a team would be able to make some damn adjustments after you've seen him a few times.  But this is the White Sox we're talking about.

 

There's not a hitter on the Sox that you watch and think "wow, he made some great adjustments at the plate".

[Flash Tizzle]

There's not a hitter on the Sox that you watch and think "wow, he made some great adjustments at the plate".

 

Despite Santana's knack for surrendering HR's these last two seasons, against us we've hardly put together good swings.. They're too defensive at the plate.

 

This team just isn't constructed to do well against pitchers with great changeups. Usually it's your fastball hitting teams that a changeup pitcher dominates; which fits our style.

[Toto Testosterone]

Well,  we all know El Duque is beyond done. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Except that isn't really true. With rest and a hard 80-85 pitch limit, he can still produce at a surprisingly high rate.

 

What Ozzie did to him in May (118 pitch back-to-back starts in cold weather being the dubious highlight) when Orlando was going very good, is borderline criminal. Ok, El Duque's stuff (velocity, movement, bite) dissappeared not long thereafter, his ERA jumped by 2 full points; he even had to be shut down at two different points....

 

Then when he was all but writtten off, Orlando regained his 88-91 mph fastball with some movement, slider with bite and produced a couple of quality starts in late July IIRC upon his 2nd return. Then he followed that up with a stretch which alone should have gotten Ozzie fired: Yankees, Mariners, Rangers and Tigers, where Duque was nothing short of excellent early but allowed a total 9 "extra" runs in the final 1.2 innings (1, 1, 5, 2 respectively) - all of which came after 90 pitches...

 

Yes, Duque spoiled a brilliant outing against the Yankees by 2 errors of his own, including a shut-out breaking botched DP, so I am not going to say Ozzie is to blame for it all, but I'll damned if our arrogant/ignorant skipper didn't play a crucial role in not only destorying ED's ERA and confidence, but also risking a major shoulder re-injury. And that's just a 4-start sample size!

 

Sox fans should know more than anyone else you can never have suprlus of experienced SP. Duque is still relatively affordable in 2006. But unless he is utilized properly (even if it means he goes 5-6 innings maximum, so underrated guys like Cotts or Bajenaru would have chip in an additional inning), it's almost impossible for him to succeed. Even Joe Torre found it out the HARD way in September and October of 2004 when Duque ran out of gas after a great 8-0 stretch. Make him a long-reliever and if one starter goes down next year, give him another shot.

 

As for 2005 playoffs, I don't want him anywhere near the mound.

[3E8]

Except that isn't really true. With rest and a hard 80-85 pitch limit, he can still produce at a surprisingly high rate.

Problem is, that gets us through about the 3rd inning.

[Flash Tizzle]

Then he followed that up with a stretch which alone should have gotten Ozzie fired: Yankees, Mariners, Rangers and Tigers, where Duque was nothing short of excellent early but allowed a total 9 "extra" runs in the final 1.2 innings (1, 1, 5, 2 respectively) - all of which came after 90 pitches... 

 

My problem with Guillen's management of the starting rotation is too often he leaves in starting pitchers--ie; Garland last night--with no regards to pitch count or how the hitters have faired as the game has progressed. Allowing major league hitters three looks at Duque is a recipe for gopherball.

 

You have to expect-- esp against good hitting teams, they'd gradually adjust to Duque's arm angles after previous AB's. Too often he breezes through five innings then collapses once hitters make adjustments. It's almost guaranteed Hernandez throws one hanging breaking ball per AB following the 5th inning. All you have to do is sit on it.

 

If Hernandez is concerned with prolonging his career he'd embrace a move to the bullpen. He can deceive hitters for three innings without worrying about second looks from the lineup.

[Adam G]

Sox fans should know more than anyone else you can never have suprlus of experienced SP. 

Which is all well and good, but what good is a guy who is a stud in October if you dont even get to October? He can be the most knowledgeable guy around, but if he's 40+ years old, on the DL two or three times a season, and only effective every fourth start or so, what good is the experience? If he spoke better English he could take that experience and be a color commentator or something, but it doesnt do much for the team.

 

And I dont buy all the BS that he's magically some different pitcher once the playoffs begin. He hasnt won a postseason game in five years.

Duque is still relatively affordable in 2006.

As he should be, seeing as how he's 9-9 with an ERA over 5 and only 125 IP this year. That's hardly good enough to keep his job, let alone demand any big money.

As for 2005 playoffs, I don't want him anywhere near the mound.

Well good, then we're in agreement.

Edited September 17, 2005 by Adam G

[Punch and Judy Garland]

Yeah 80-85 pitches for a starter is unacceptable on a regular basis. Granted, he's been better than the usual suspects who took the 5-hole befor ethis year, but that had every bit as much to do with Kenny/Ozzie/Manuel as it did with the guys who pitched in those spots. I was an advocate of trading McCarthy at the deadline but I think clearly now he needs to take the 5th spot for next year. I don't have any idea what you do with Hernandez. Just enough money to not want to waive him and also too much to really trade him before the season.