Ozzie Guillen

[fathom]

What has he said lately?  I haven't had much of a chance to catch a lot of the broadcasts.

 

He's been very skeptical about Ozzie's use of Marte. On Friday night, he kept saying how much he questioned the move. Then, tonight, the TV kept showing Marte on the bench as they were saying how you can't keep pitching people in the bullpen if they're going to walk batters. You no longer hear Hawk praise Ozzie for all his decisions. No more comments like "Ozzie has something in mind for the stretch run, etc."

Edited September 20, 2005 by fathom

[fathom]

Here's my question for anyone that doesn't want Ozzie fired if the Sox miss the playoffs: What good is he as a manager if he can't motivate his team enough to hold on to a 15 game lead with 2 months left in the season? Since he's obviously a poor strategical manager, he's a liability as a manager if he can't prove an ability to keep his team focused.

[SoxFanForever]

He's been very skeptical about Ozzie's use of Marte.  On Friday night, he kept saying how much he questioned the move.  Then, tonight, the TV kept showing Marte on the bench as they were saying how you can't keep pitching people in the bullpen if they're going to walk batters.  You no longer hear Hawk praise Ozzie for all his decisions.  No more comments like "Ozzie has something in mind for the stretch run, etc."

About what I figured. You know the guy is making s*** decisions when Hawk, the aploigist for our front office/management/ownership/team, is doubting him.

[DBAHO]

Here's my question for anyone that doesn't want Ozzie fired if the Sox miss the playoffs:  What good is he as a manager if he can't motivate his team enough to hold on to a 15 game lead with 2 months left in the season?  Since he's obviously a poor strategical manager, he's a liability as a manager if he can't prove an ability to keep his team focused.

Motivation isn't the problem, it's the decision making. I'm probably one of the people who defends Ozzie on here, but my argument to that would be that he was good enough to get the team to a 15 game lead in the 1st place.

 

Ozzie isn't going anywhere so we just have to hope handling the pen etc. is a learning experience for him, and he can become much better at it in the future.

[fathom]

Motivation isn't the problem, it's the decision making. I'm probably one of the people who defends Ozzie on here, but my argument to that would be that he was good enough to get the team to a 15 game lead in the 1st place.

 

Ozzie isn't going anywhere so we just have to hope handling the pen etc. is a learning experience for him, and he can become much better at it in the future.

 

So KW will be the scapegoat? If the worse case scenario occurs, you know there will have to be changes made.

[DBAHO]

So KW will be the scapegoat?  If the worse case scenario occurs, you know there will have to be changes made.

I don't think there will be changes made even if we miss the playoffs. If anyone's going to held accountable, my guess is a Greg Walker or Harold Baines.

 

Remember it's not like KW didn't try at the deadline, and you saw what Florida gave up for Ron Villone (and you know how well that's gone for them).

[fathom]

I don't think there will be changes made even if we miss the playoffs. If anyone's going to held accountable, my guess is a Greg Walker or Harold Baines.

 

Remember it's not like KW didn't try at the deadline, and you saw what Florida gave up for Ron Villone (and you know how well that's gone for them).

 

You and I might realize that, but 95 pct of the Sox fan base is going to call for the head of KW or Ozzie. Here's a big worry I have with Ozzie: he was awful handling his pitchers last season. He continues to do the same s*** this season, and still doesn't seem to actually learn from his mistakes during the season. Every Sox fan in the world knew that Dye can't bunt. You know that I have been down on this team all season, even when they were 15 games up. One of the main reasons was because I had absolutely no faith that Ozzie could help us win close games down the stretch. He has 13 games to earn his job, IMO.

[DBAHO]

You and I might realize that, but 95 pct of the Sox fan base is going to call for the head of KW or Ozzie.  Here's a big worry I have with Ozzie:  he was awful handling his pitchers last season.  He continues to do the same s*** this season, and still doesn't seem to actually learn from his mistakes during the season.  Every Sox fan in the world knew that Dye can't bunt.  You know that I have been down on this team all season, even when they were 15 games up.  One of the main reasons was because I had absolutely no faith that Ozzie could help us win close games down the stretch.  He has 13 games to earn his job, IMO.

What that 95% needs to realize is that this team was never going to be "that good" to win this division by 15 games. It was never going to happen, all the experts in the pre - season etc had us coming in 3rd and 4th.

 

Next - season will be the key for Ozzie and his handling of pitchers. Marte isn't likely to be here in 2006, so Cotts should step up as the main guy. Hermy should move into a setup role with Politte, while Jenks takes over as the closer. Remember this with Ozzie, first half of the season the bullpen was rolling, almost every pitcher except for Viz were having great seasons. Now that's not the case at all, and that's probably been a big key in what's happened to the Sox in this 2nd half.

 

And yes guys like Dye shouldn't be asked to bunt. But we need more guys in the lineup say if you bring in a Bill Mueller for Joe Crede, who can do that type of stuff, to make the lineup more versatile.

 

One of the priorities in the off-season should be to bring in an experienced bench coach to help Ozzie though. No offense to Harold Baines, but losing Joe Nossak really hurt this organisation.

[fathom]

DBAHO....I'm not saying I disagree with you, but if this team doesn't make the playoffs, either KW or Ozzie won't be back. Since Ozzie got the extension, I think KW will get fired, and Steve Stone would be the new GM. Whoever the GM is, I just hope they know that they won't win games because of Ozzieball. Rather, the players are what make Ozzieball work. By that, I mean the best the hitters, the better the offense. What the Sox have is a lack of tough outs in the order.

[DBAHO]

DBAHO....I'm not saying I disagree with you, but if this team doesn't make the playoffs, either KW or Ozzie won't be back.  Since Ozzie got the extension, I think KW will get fired, and Steve Stone would be the new GM.  Whoever the GM is, I just hope they know that they won't win games because of Ozzieball.  Rather, the players are what make Ozzieball work.  By that, I mean the best the hitters, the better the offense.  What the Sox have is a lack of tough outs in the order.

And I think that's a knee jerk reaction, and not the right one quite frankly. KW did a great job in the off-season, he brought in Jermaine Dye, who's outprodued the likes of Richard Hidalgo and Maggs Ordonez etc. He re-signed Cliff Politte to a cheaper deal, and he's prospered.

 

And I think he'll make moves to upgrade this lineup in the off-season, and that will be his #1 priority. The rotation won't need changing much, with B-Mac stepping in and El Duque getting shipped out. The pen may need a new lefty assuming Marte is given the heave - ho.

 

Upgrades need to be made at 3B, DH and maybe SS/CF/LF. And with the increase in payroll (5-10M at least), I think he'll do that. I can't see how KW can get fired, while the likes of Dave Dombroski and Dave Littlefield continue to get off scot free.

[fathom]

Upgrades need to be made at 3B, DH and maybe SS/CF/LF. And with the increase in payroll (5-10M at least), I think he'll do that. I can't see how KW can get fired, while the likes of Dave Dombroski and Dave Littlefield continue to get off scot free.

 

Trust me, I think it would be a travesty if KW got fired, but Ozzie kept his job. I also think that if you see the Sox miss out on the playoffs, you're not going to see the increase in payroll. I think it's safe to say if the Sox miss the playoffs, PK will be gone, and Everett and Frank will not be brought back. Personally, I feel like our offense needs a superstar.

[DBAHO]

Trust me, I think it would be a travesty if KW got fired, but Ozzie kept his job.  I also think that if you see the Sox miss out on the playoffs, you're not going to see the increase in payroll.  I think it's safe to say if the Sox miss the playoffs, PK will be gone, and Everett and Frank will not be brought back.  Personally, I feel like our offense needs a superstar.

If you look at the payroll figures for the past 5 seasons, you will see increases in each year. With the way attendance has been, I've got no doubt that will continue, and the Sox will have to spend if they want to keep pace with the Indians and Twinkies for the next few years.

 

Everett's probably a goner, I doubt Frank will be back. I'm more optimistic on Konerko, I still think he'll stick around unless either the Dodgers or Angels come in with a real big offer. Doubt he goes to an east coast team because he doesn't like it there.

 

As for the offense, Brian Giles, Bill Mueller and Erubiel Durazo should be priorities in my mind. Get those 3, things will be looking much better for the Sox.

[fathom]

Giles and Mueller would be good additions, even though I don't think Mueller would be quite as good outside of Fenway and that supporting cast. Durazo wouldn't be a great fit, as he's injury prone and doesn't exactly fit in well with Ozzieball.

 

My plan would be to trade Contreras, Marte, and Sweeney for Hank Blalock, and then try and find a 5th starter for about 4 or 5 million. I don't think Duque has ANY trade value.

[qwerty]

What that 95% needs to realize is that this team was never going to be "that good" to win this division by 15 games. It was never going to happen, all the experts in the pre - season etc had us coming in 3rd and 4th.

 

Why do you keep bringing this up? Everyone outside of the so called ''experts'' knew we would either take first place or second place this season. I am not just saying just us sox fans... fans from other message boards and sites that actually have some intelligent people on them... and you know the sites i am talking about.

 

Sox are the first team to have a 15 game lead at one point and have it drop below 3 games. Wo0t! Someone is to blame... hell alot of people are to blame... but i am getting sick and tired of the '' if you knew on september 21st, 2005 that the white sox would have a 2.5 game lead in the division...''. Sox blow this lead and still get the wild card it is an embarrasment considering the commanding lead they had in the division and had for a long time.

 

We have learned we cannot beat playoff caliber teams on a regular basis. So i don't see why we should be so excited about the next two games even if it does look like the matchups are in our favor. The indians are playing the same exact way we were in the first half when we looked like a playoff team... and they looked like s***... now the roles are completely reversed.

[qwerty]

If you look at the payroll figures for the past 5 seasons, you will see increases in each year. With the way attendance has been, I've got no doubt that will continue, and the Sox will have to spend if they want to keep pace with the Indians and Twinkies for the next few years.

 

Everett's probably a goner, I doubt Frank will be back. I'm more optimistic on Konerko, I still think he'll stick around unless either the Dodgers or Angels come in with a real big offer. Doubt he goes to an east coast team because he doesn't like it there.

 

As for the offense, Brian Giles, Bill Mueller and Erubiel Durazo should be priorities in my mind. Get those 3, things will be looking much better for the Sox.

 

We get two of those three it will be amazing. One of those three is very realistic though. If we got out all of those three and didn't even resign konerko this team would be much, much improved. Chances of us signing three of the five best offensive free agents out there? 0%.

[DBAHO]

Giles and Mueller would be good additions, even though I don't think Mueller would be quite as good outside of Fenway and that supporting cast.  Durazo wouldn't be a great fit, as he's injury prone and doesn't exactly fit in well with Ozzieball.

 

My plan would be to trade Contreras, Marte, and Sweeney for Hank Blalock, and then try and find a 5th starter for about 4 or 5 million.  I don't think Duque has ANY trade value.

Durazo had a .913 OPS in 03 or 04 in Oakland, imagine what he could do in Chicago at the Cell. I don't think we need the DH to fit into the Ozzieball mold, we still need some guys who can mash the ball.

 

Mueller's stats away from Fenway aren't great, but I still think he'd do a good job for the Sox. Nothing more than a 2 year deal though. Hank Blalock on the other hand, doesn't have a good K/BB ratio, is terrible away from Texas, and has an OPS around what Aaron Rowand has. No way I'd give up Contreras AND Marte AND Sweeney for him.

[SoxFanForever]

Durazo had a .913 OPS in 03 or 04 in Oakland, imagine what he could do in Chicago at the Cell. I don't think we need the DH to fit into the Ozzieball mold, we still need some guys who can mash the ball.

 

Mueller's stats away from Fenway aren't great, but I still think he'd do a good job for the Sox. Nothing more than a 2 year deal though. Hank Blalock on the other hand, doesn't have a good K/BB ratio, is terrible away from Texas, and has an OPS around what Aaron Rowand has. No way I'd give up Contreras AND Marte AND Sweeney for him.

Durazo had season ending surgery. It is questionable he will come back and post the same type of numbers.

[fathom]

Our biggest liability the past few years has been 3b production, and Blalock is clearly the best offensive 3b that has the slightest chance of being obtained. I'm a big advocate of the Sox trading Contreras this offseason for a big time offensive hitter as Jose's stock will never be higher. Obviously, Marte will be traded, and I think it's safe to say that Sweeney's stock has fallen big time this season. I would actually try and get Dunn from the Reds for that similar package.

[DBAHO]

Why do you keep bringing this up? Everyone outside of the so called ''experts'' knew we would either take first place or second place this season. I am not just saying just us sox fans... fans from other message boards and sites that actually have some intelligent people on them... and you know the sites i am talking about.

 

Sox are the first team to have a 15 game lead at one point and have it drop below 3 games. Wo0t! Someone is to blame... hell alot of people are to blame... but i am getting sick and tired of the '' if you knew on september 21st, 2005 that the white sox would have a 2.5 game lead in the division...''. Sox blow this lead and still get the wild card it is an embarrasment considering the commanding lead they had in the division and had for a long time.

 

We have learned we cannot beat playoff caliber teams on a regular basis.  So i don't see why we should be so excited about the next two games even if it does look like the matchups are in our favor. The indians are playing the same exact way we were in the first half when we looked like a playoff team... and they looked like s***... now the roles are completely reversed.

Can you show me some of those sites qwerty (and I'm being serious here). The sites I looked at like Hardball Times etc. pretty much had Minny and Cleveland going 1,2 in the Central.

 

Of course it's embarrissing if the Sox lose the division. But with what Cleveland have done in the 2nd half with their schedule, it was always going to be possible, since the Sox were never going to keep up their 1st half pace.

 

Am I excited about the next 2 days? Yeah, I am. We took 4 runs off Cleveland's best pitcher, and the offense looked a lot better. If the starting pitching can do their job, I think we can score enough runs to win the next 2 games. And Cleveland plays a lot better away than at home, something to remember when we play them in the final series of the season.

[qwerty]

Giles and Mueller would be good additions, even though I don't think Mueller would be quite as good outside of Fenway and that supporting cast.  Durazo wouldn't be a great fit, as he's injury prone and doesn't exactly fit in well with Ozzieball.

 

My plan would be to trade Contreras, Marte, and Sweeney for Hank Blalock, and then try and find a 5th starter for about 4 or 5 million.  I don't think Duque has ANY trade value.

 

What makes blaylock's .765 ops so appealing to you? I would make that trade for the 2003 and 2004 blaylock, but for the 2005 version? They can keep him. Rather sign mueller ( one year contract with an option) and go from there. He will be cheaper in the terms of salary and what it takes to get him talent wise ( draft picks).

[DBAHO]

Durazo had season ending surgery.  It is questionable he will come back and post the same type of numbers.

Sounds like a good risk / reward type of situation then. If the Sox could get him cheaply on a 1 year deal so he can rebound, I'd be for it. It's only his elbow as well, so it's not like Frank and the ankle injury.

[fathom]

If we're going to lose PK, we need to do more to upgrade the offense than going from Crede to Mueller.

[qwerty]

Sounds like a good risk / reward type of situation then. If the Sox could get him cheaply on a 1 year deal so he can rebound, I'd be for it. It's only his elbow as well, so it's not like Frank and the ankle injury.

 

I think he may go for an incentive laden deal much like nomar considering he will only be 31 at the start of next season. That will give him plenty of time to still get a 3-4 year deal down the road.

[fathom]

FWIW, I had no clue how crappy Blalock was doing during this 2nd half of the season. Could be a good buy low type of risk.

[DBAHO]

Our biggest liability the past few years has been 3b production, and Blalock is clearly the best offensive 3b that has the slightest chance of being obtained.  I'm a big advocate of the Sox trading Contreras this offseason for a big time offensive hitter as Jose's stock will never be higher.  Obviously, Marte will be traded, and I think it's safe to say that Sweeney's stock has fallen big time this season.  I would actually try and get Dunn from the Reds for that similar package.

I'd say Adrian Beltre could be had, although I know most here probably wouldn't be in favor of that. Shea Hillenbrand's another. If you just look at the position, only about 8 or 9 players who play 3B everyday, have an OPS over .800. It's hard to find a good hitter there.