High Stakes: Williams Should Be Let Go . . .

[greasywheels121]

Either Anthrax is writing a 40 chapter novel, or he fell asleep at the wheel.

[fathom]

decent relief, which will be possibly restructured next year. Decent starting pitching. Bad defense, good power, but they are subject to slumping much like our old team.  So soon we forget how terrible they were.  They got hotter than any team I have ever seen, but thats always a funny thing.

 

They have the best overall relief in the American League. Last I looked, while the Sox bullpen keeps blowing late leads, Wickman and company keep getting the job done. Also, to stay hot for as long as they have, it requires more than luck....it's talent! Their starting pitching is very solid, especially with C.C. improving from his awful start.

[AnthraxFan93]

For people thinking that KW should be fired after the season, barring a White Sox collapse....

 

We fire KW.  The end.  What exactly does that solve?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

5 years of missing the playoffs..

 

And hopefully we get a guy in here who actually knows how to build an organiztion from the ground up.. Look people this was it for KW.. How much longer do you go with a guy who is can not figure it out? Mistake after mistake after mistake and still you want him as the GM..

 

Look at the team that will soon take over the Divsion, with a lesser payroll yet again. What they do they built a team form within..Funny that is the only thing I have been calling for, yet I don't knwo what I am talking about.

 

In 5 years we have changed "stars players", managers .. all don't add up to a playoff apperence. So when do we change the man that is charge of both? When do you people realize he is the reason we are never going anywhere???

 

Also people are braging about the 15 game lead, did anyone sit and see that the Sox were playing out their ass? The Sox peaked at the End of June and been ridding that streak all year. I stated that this team would be really good or really bad.. and they were both, if Cleveland didn't start off as bad as they did we would be trying to catch them...

 

FIRE KW NOW..And save the Sox

[RockRaines]

They have the best overall relief in the American League.  Last I looked, while the Sox bullpen keeps blowing late leads, Wickman and company keep getting the job done.  Also, to stay hot for as long as they have, it requires more than luck....it's talent!  Their starting pitching is very solid, especially with C.C. improving from his awful start.

Wickman will be gone, Millwood will be gone

[AnthraxFan93]

anthrax dont even start. You havent been on here in months waiting for this opp

 

I have been just not posting or logged in, just read the BS waiting for someone else to see the truth.

Edited September 20, 2005 by AnthraxFan93

[RockRaines]

I have been just not posting or logged in, just read the BS waiting for someone else to see the truth.

yes, you are the truth. Honestly I expected better with that much time typing. You may have lost your creativity taking so much time off.

[AnthraxFan93]

yes, you are the truth. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

About Time you see the light.

[Chisoxrd5]

About Time you see the light.

 

Now that is an example of taking a piece of your post rock... :lol

 

I still have a ways to go

 

Anthrax reappears when there is a fire KW thread :rolly :rolly :rolly

 

suprise, suprise

[RockRaines]

Now that is an example of taking a piece of your post rock... :lol

 

I still have a ways to go

 

Anthrax reappears when there is a fire KW thread  :rolly  :rolly  :rolly

 

suprise, suprise

he is next in line for Marriotti's job with that quote cut job

[RockRaines]

I think I may use this quote in my next sig line material

 

"And I am the Dubass here? That should be in green with lights on it.. Jose (contreras) wished he was as good as AJ.. BUrnett is by far the bext pitcher out there to grab.. and we need him I don't what you are all debating about this for?"

[santo=dorf]

How long until POPPY_HIDALGO shows up to join the party?

[ZoomSlowik]

Don't make the Indians out to be this ungodly good team with a superb manager. They're where they are right now because they traded off the bulk of their veterans while they were still decent and have been brutal since 2000. In breaking up their team, they somehow convinced Montreal to give up most of their farm system for Bartolo Colon, managed to get Hafner and I think Hafner for almost nothing and I believe they drafted Sabathia. They managed to have like all of their prospects pan out over that stretch (with the exception of Brandon Phillips). No matter how good your scouting in that takes some luck. Plus, they decided to give a decent sum of money to Juan Gonzalez, and I'll eat an Indians hat if Millwood pitches this well for the rest of his contract.

[Balta1701]

Don't make the Indians out to be this ungodly good team with a superb manager. They're where they are right now because they traded off the bulk of their veterans while they were still decent and have been brutal since 2000. In breaking up their team, they somehow convinced Montreal to give up most of their farm system for Bartolo Colon, managed to get Hafner and I think Hafner for almost nothing and I believe they drafted Sabathia. They managed to have like all of their prospects pan out over that stretch (with the exception of Brandon Phillips). No matter how good your scouting in that takes some luck. Plus, they decided to give a decent sum of money to Juan Gonzalez, and I'll eat an Indians hat if Millwood pitches this well for the rest of his contract.

This formula, by the way, is something the White Sox have been very unwilling to do except for 1 year...1998, the infamous surrender trade. Williams may very well have started to change that last year with the Lee deal.

 

But think about this...we lost Ordonez for nada. We lost Valentin for Nada. We lost Bartolo Colon for nada. In each case, we made the decision to try to win rather than trading the guy when they had less than 1 season left on their contract and we could have gotten something for them.

 

This year, we've done the same thing with Konerko, and potentially Thomas and Everett. Next year, we could be on the hook for the same thing with Garland, AJ, Dye, and a couple others.

 

Every year, we're close. As one person pointed out in a different post, we tend to have a winning record or a .500 record almost every year. This makes our guys very unwilling to trade players. Remember last year when I believe there was some discussion of an Ordonez for Andruw Jones swap?

 

KW's move with Carlos Lee was so masterful in my opinion because at the end of 2006, Carlos Lee will be a Free Agent. So instead of losing him for a consolation draft pick, we managed to get Podsednik, Viz, and a minor leaguer, instead of nothing.

 

Unfortunately, if we can't resign people that we develop like Konerko and Lee...it helps the organization far more to just go ahead and dump them in the last year of hteir contracts, even if we're winning. The problem is...we're moderately close every single year, so there's no GM who wants to stand up and say "We're not going to win this year but we'll win 2 years down the road" when we're close to the race.

[fathom]

Don't make the Indians out to be this ungodly good team with a superb manager. They're where they are right now because they traded off the bulk of their veterans while they were still decent and have been brutal since 2000. In breaking up their team, they somehow convinced Montreal to give up most of their farm system for Bartolo Colon, managed to get Hafner and I think Hafner for almost nothing and I believe they drafted Sabathia. They managed to have like all of their prospects pan out over that stretch (with the exception of Brandon Phillips). No matter how good your scouting in that takes some luck. Plus, they decided to give a decent sum of money to Juan Gonzalez, and I'll eat an Indians hat if Millwood pitches this well for the rest of his contract.

 

So it's just luck that a lot of their young guys have panned out? Sometimes, you have to give credit where it's due. They risked a few years of losing and poor attendance to reload the entire organization. They're in great position to have about 5 years of World Series caliber teams.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Sep 20, 2005 -> 05:11 PM)

  We lost Bartolo Colon for nada. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually we got two draft picks for him.

[AnthraxFan93]

Don't make the Indians out to be this ungodly good team with a superb manager. They're where they are right now because they traded off the bulk of their veterans while they were still decent and have been brutal since 2000. In breaking up their team, they somehow convinced Montreal to give up most of their farm system for Bartolo Colon, managed to get Hafner and I think Hafner for almost nothing and I believe they drafted Sabathia. They managed to have like all of their prospects pan out over that stretch (with the exception of Brandon Phillips). No matter how good your scouting in that takes some luck. Plus, they decided to give a decent sum of money to Juan Gonzalez, and I'll eat an Indians hat if Millwood pitches this well for the rest of his contract.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I never said that, What I am saying is that their GM was able to rebuild in 2 years to contend for a divsion title. I wish we could do what Cleveland did, but alast look who we have running the player personal...We should have traded Maggs b4 last season, along with about 16000000000000000000 other moves, to make this team better for the long haul not just a chance for one year.

[ZoomSlowik]

So it's just luck that a lot of their young guys have panned out?  Sometimes, you have to give credit where it's due.  They risked a few years of losing and poor attendance to reload the entire organization.  They're in great position to have about 5 years of World Series caliber teams.

 

It's not all luck, but some of it can clearly be attributed to some good fortune. They got three very good prospects for Colon from the Expos. They probably got more for him than the A's got for Mulder and Hudson combined. Two of those guys have become key parts of their team in Lee and Sizemore. They also got Hafner in a deal where Aaron Myette was the centerpiece for two weak players. Anytime you your #3 hitter in a deal centered around Ryan Drese, some luck is involved. Also, they got plenty of extra draft picks from letting guys like Ramirez, Thome, and Alomar go, giving them more shots at good picks. We don't have those kind of guys. We got some decent stuff for Lee, but he was by far our most valuable piece and had two years left on his deal. Would Konerko with 1 year left get us an everday starter and a decent bullpen arm? I'm not sure. Thomas and Everett would get us squat.

 

Do any of you remember how good the Indians were before this stretch? They were a terror for a while, with some of the best lineups I've ever seen. It's a little easier to rebuild when you have so many good pieces. Plus, I'm sure many of us here wouldn't want to have little to no shot at competing for the next 4 years or so while we did this. More importantly, I don't think the Indian's personel is that strong. I think they are a decent team that hit really well for about a month and a half and are now winning some close games because of a decent pen. Millwood is not this good a pitcher. He can still be decent, but I doubt he has an ERA under 3.50 the next few years. C.C. Sabathia is talented but hasn't done a whole lot. Lee is merely decent, Westbrook looks like the old Garland, and Elarton is a scrub. Plus, how good is their lineup? I can't say I'd want anyone after Martinez in last night's lineup. Sizemore looks good, Hafner is a stud, and Martinez looks pretty good. I'm not sure about Perralta yet. The rest don't really impress me, except Belliard when he is on. The only way I see them as a supremely dominant force is if they use some money to get some major players in FA.

[fathom]

Zoom...I'd hate to see your evaluation of the Sox players then. Perralta is having a terrific offensive season for the Indians, and will likely keep getting better. Who would have thought that this year, Sizemore and Perralta would just destroy Rowand and Uribe in terms of offensive production?

[ZoomSlowik]

I never said that, What I am saying is that their GM was able to rebuild in 2 years to contend for a divsion title.  I wish we could do what Cleveland did, but alast look who we have running the player personal...We should have traded Maggs b4 last season, along with about 16000000000000000000 other moves, to make this team better for the long haul not just a chance for one year.

 

First off, it's been at least since 2000 that the Indians competed for anything. Second, are we really better off if we have Jones? He's hitting with a lot of power this year, but not much average, and he's signed for several more years and a lot more money. Plus we were still trying to resign Maggs. Third, pretty much everyone is back next year, with only Paulie a strong possibility to go.

[ZoomSlowik]

Zoom...I'd hate to see your evaluation of the Sox players then.  Perralta is having a terrific offensive season for the Indians, and will likely keep getting better.  Who would have thought that this year, Sizemore and Perralta would just destroy Rowand and Uribe in terms of offensive production?

 

He's good this year, but so was Rowand last year. I'd like to see him do it twice before I declare him a stud.

[fathom]

First off, it's been at least since 2000 that the Indians competed for anything. Second, are we really better off if we have Jones? He's hitting with a lot of power this year, but not much average, and he's signed for several more years and a lot more money. Plus we were still trying to resign Maggs. Third, pretty much everyone is back next year, with only Paulie a strong possibility to go.

 

Holy s***! Andruw Jones is the MVP of the National League, and that's not including his great defense. Good grief....it's not a crime to admit that other players besides White Sox personnel are excellent players. You put Andruw at the Cell, and he could have 60 homers this year.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(AnthraxFan93 @ Sep 20, 2005 -> 05:18 PM)

I never said that, What I am saying is that their GM was able to rebuild in 2 years to contend for a divsion title.  I wish we could do what Cleveland did, but alast look who we have running the player personal...We should have traded Maggs b4 last season, along with about 16000000000000000000 other moves, to make this team better for the long haul not just a chance for one year.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The rehaul started in the middle of 2002, so that's two and a half years of rebuilding.

 

Didn't KW try to trade Magglio to Boston as part of the A-Rod only to have Boston (I would love to see you try and spin that one on KW) f*** up?

Didn't KW try to trade Magglio to the Braves for Andruw Jones, but it didn't go down because Maggs never recovered and the Braves went back into contention?

 

Oh great, now I just gave you ammo how KW f***ed up a potential Jones-Ordonez deal.

[Balta1701]

The rehaul started in the middle of 2002, so that's two and a half years of rebuilding.

 

Didn't KW try to trade Magglio to Boston as part of the A-Rod only to have Boston (I would love to see you try and spin that one on KW) f*** up?

Didn't KW try to trade Magglio to the Braves for Andruw Jones, but it didn't go down because Maggs never recovered and the Braves went back into contention?

 

Oh great, now I just gave you ammo how KW f***ed up a potential Jones-Ordonez deal. 

Actually if my memory is working well, KW tried to deal Ordonez to the Bravos, but it didn't work out because KW wanted to get a pitcher (Russ Ortiz) back along with Jones, and the Braves weren't willing to part with both a pitcher and Jones in exchange for 1 bat.

 

In the Boston deal...I believe we'd have wound up with Nomar. Thank God Boston screwed that up. (Nomar also btw had 1 year left on his contract at the time...the exact same duration as Ordonez had left...so it really wouldn't have helped us in terms of finding people that we can hold onto unless we got a quality prospect to go along with Nomar)

[qwerty]

Holy s***!  Andruw Jones is the MVP of the National League, and that's not including his great defense.  Good grief....it's not a crime to admit that other players besides White Sox personnel are excellent players.  You put Andruw at the Cell, and he could have 60 homers this year.

 

So he is worth this contract?

 

Andruw Jones: 6-Year worth 75M- will make in 2002- 9.5M + 3M signing bonus, in 2003-11.5M, in 2004-12M, in 2005-12.5M, in 2006-13M and in 2007-13.5M- + he did not receive a bonus for a 2005 All-Star selection Agent: Scott Boras Service Time: 8.047

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Sep 20, 2005 -> 05:34 PM)

Actually if my memory is working well, KW tried to deal Ordonez to the Bravos, but it didn't work out because KW wanted to get a pitcher (Russ Ortiz) back along with Jones, and the Braves weren't willing to part with both a pitcher and Jones in exchange for 1 bat.

 

In the Boston deal...I believe we'd have wound up with Nomar.  Thank God Boston screwed that up.  (Nomar also btw had 1 year left on his contract at the time...the exact same duration as Ordonez had left...so it really wouldn't have helped us in terms of finding people that we can hold onto unless we got a quality prospect to go along with Nomar)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, but the discussion also involved throwing in Jon Rauch along with another prospect to get BOTH Ortiz and Jones. The Braves were looking to get out of Jones' big contract, and the Sox were having a hard time resigning Maggs at the time.

 

The Nomar deal also involved Scott Williamson, and there was talk of spinning Nomar to LA for a package involving players such as Mota, Perez, Greg Miller (was a top pitching prospect,) or Edwin Jackson. Hell I remember talk of sending Magglio to LA after the Boston-Texas trade broke down.