High Stakes: Williams Should Be Let Go . . .

[qwerty]

Why the f*** did williams not get this guy?

 

 

[Wealz]

The rehaul started in the middle of 2002, so that's two and a half years of rebuilding.

 

Didn't KW try to trade Magglio to Boston as part of the A-Rod only to have Boston (I would love to see you try and spin that one on KW) f*** up?

Didn't KW try to trade Magglio to the Braves for Andruw Jones, but it didn't go down because Maggs never recovered and the Braves went back into contention?

 

Oh great, now I just gave you ammo how KW f***ed up a potential Jones-Ordonez deal. 

 

Four years after inhereting a 2000 division winner he has zero division titles That includes a 2003 team that collapsed down the stretch. If they somehow blow this lead there will be no excuses left for Williams.

[qwerty]

Four years after inhereting a 2000 division winner he has zero division titles That includes a 2003 team that collapsed down the stretch.  If they somehow blow this lead there will be no excuses left for Williams.

 

The 2000 team was a bunch of over achievers that put together career years offensively ( at the time). The pitching on that team was awful too. That was not a team of greatness just like this current team isn't either. 2000 was a flukey ass year that we just mashed people to death.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(Wealz @ Sep 20, 2005 -> 05:39 PM)

Four years after inhereting a 2000 division winner he has zero division titles That includes a 2003 team that collapsed down the stretch.  If they somehow blow this lead there will be no excuses left for Williams.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That 2000 team was broken down before the end of the 2000 season. The rotation was in shambles and one really has to wonder how much guys like Baldwin, Sirotka, and Parque all overachieved that season.

 

2003? Don't get me started. KW provided all of the pieces yet Jerry just couldn't motivate them. It also didn't help that Minnesota won 11 games in a row in September finishing 4 games better than the Sox.

 

How can ou possibly say that this .500 ball the past few weeks is Williams' fault?

[Wealz]

That 2000 team was broken down before the end of the 2000 season. The rotation was in shambles and one really has to wonder how much guys like Baldwin, Sirotka, and Parque all overachieved that season.

 

2003?  Don't get me started.  KW provided all of the pieces yet Jerry just couldn't motivate them.  It also didn't help that Minnesota won 11 games in a row in September finishing 4 games better than the Sox.

 

How can ou possibly say that this .500 ball the past few weeks is Williams' fault?

 

Rarely are things this cut and dried, but here's where we stand today. If they make the playoffs -- don't have to win the division -- he deserves a contract extension. If, on the other hand, he is the GM of a team that owns the biggest regular season collapse, he should be fired.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(qwerty @ Sep 20, 2005 -> 05:38 PM)

Why the f*** did williams not get this guy?

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Anthrax ain't got nuthin' on Wealz when it comes to what KW "should've done."

 

Wealz's offseason plans included:

Trading Carlos Lee, Paul Konerko, and Jose Contreras to free up the money to sign Adrian Beltre.

Make Dustin Hermanson the 5th starter.

Possibly using Vizcaino as the closer.

 

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(Wealz @ Sep 20, 2005 -> 05:52 PM)

Rarely are things this cut and dried, but here's where we stand today.  If they make the playoffs -- don't have to win the division -- he deserves a contract extension.  If, on the other hand, he is the GM of a team that owns the biggest regular season collapse, he should be fired.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Based on some of your previous posts, I can tell you have some kind of connection to Reinsdorf.

 

What exactly is KW's contract status? If the Sox win the division, how long do you extend him for? What if the Sox blow the division, but win the wild card?

[Wealz]

Based on some of your previous posts, I can tell you have some kind of connection to Reinsdorf.

 

What exactly is KW's contract status?  If the Sox win the division, how long do you extend him for?  What if the Sox blow the division, but win the wild card?

 

I prefer not to get into my organizational connections.

[Wealz]

Yes, but the discussion also involved throwing in Jon Rauch along with another prospect to get BOTH Ortiz and Jones.  The Braves were looking to get out of Jones' big contract, and the Sox were having a hard time resigning Maggs at the time.

 

The Nomar deal also involved Scott Williamson, and there was talk of spinning Nomar to LA for a package involving players such as Mota, Perez, Greg Miller (was a top pitching prospect,) or Edwin Jackson.  Hell I remember talk of sending Magglio to LA after the Boston-Texas trade broke down.

 

Garland for Erstad. You don't remember that?

[qwerty]

Garland for Erstad.  You don't remember that?

 

Even before this year garland was more valuable than erstad has been the last several. One of thse trades that we should be happy never went through ( and i am hardly a big garland fan).

[sircaffey]

Even before this year garland was more valuable than erstad has been the last several. One of thse trades that we should be happy never went through ( and i am hardly a big garland fan).

And others we aren't so happy went through (Ritchie, Koch)...

[southsider2k5]

We lost over the last few years because of a lack of an option at the 5 starter and problems in the bullpen.

 

If you take this pitching staff and insert them on those teams 2003, 2004 they run away with the division.

 

And you have a $120 million payroll, which isn't happening here with a middle of the pack attendance, so that is an impossible scenario right off of the bat.

 

Also I caught someone talking about the Indians payroll not going up by much next year, to which there was a couple points to adress. #1 the Indians had a big payroll under Jacobs ownership, the group that bought the team a few years ago has shown no indications they are going to increase the payroll excessively. #2 With all of the players that are having big years and are young are going to start seeing their salaries increase exponetially. Guys like Martinez, Hafner, Crisp, Lee, Brousard and company are heading into their arbitration years. Guys like Kevin Millwood and CC Sabathia are WAY underpaid when compared to what guys got in the free agent market before this year. They also could be having to replace key guys out of their bullpen who will be free agents, in a year when the Yankees and Red Sox will be again desparate for relief help and bidding up ordinary pitchers.

 

The Indians are going to be getting expensive quick, and that is just to keep their own players. And if their attendance doesn't increase quickly, they won't be able to afford it.

[Chisoxfn]

And others we aren't so happy went through (Ritchie, Koch)...

This year I'd rather have Cotts than Foulke. Luckily the Sox got him in the deal.

[Balta1701]

The Indians are going to be getting expensive quick, and that is just to keep their own players.  And if their attendance doesn't increase quickly, they won't be able to afford it.

Trouble is, the Indians aren't the only ones that are about to see the price of their team increase a lot.

 

In the next year, we've got AJ and Garland coming up for contracts, we've got a big question mark at 1st base right now, Crede is arbitration eligible and we have no replacement ready, and we don't have that much coming off of the books in terms of dollars either. Plus Buehrle's getting fairly close to the end of his contract, and he may very well command an absolute fortune by the time that rolls around.

 

Right now, I'm starting to see a Sox team that needs to get a lot younger in a hurry. I have a feeling I'm going to be saying that a lot this offseason.

[RockRaines]

I prefer not to get into my organizational connections.

The first rule of bulls*** club is you dont talk about bulls*** club......

[Flash Tizzle]

Since the Sox game is approaching and I'm unwilling to read through this entire thread, I'll answer the initial post with the same exact comments I've been repeating for several months. If the Sox fail to make the playoffs, it's on Williams. It's that simple.

 

However, when you question his job security, it's important to reflect on the contracts of a majority of our current squad. Aside from Konerko, Crede (and possibly one more I'm forgetting) this current team will be almost entirely entact. It would unneccassary to throw a fresh general manager into this steaming pile of crap we call an "offense" and attempt to clean it up.

 

My question is will any of you remain confident in this offense even IF it makes it to the postseason? Whether it's Williams or another guy, this team needs help offensively.

 

It's amazing to sit here and think KW, if he's intent of upgrading this club, will have to revamp his team AGAIN. Goodbye prospects. It's a shame--because Williams will be under too much pressure to stand pat with this current club and likely will trade Sweeney/Anderson or Young. We just can't wait for these hitters to slowly trudge through the minors. I guess when you produce one contributing talent every 4 years and don't have a high payroll patience runs thin.

 

This offseason should be interesting. Either we'll be witnessing another rollover of the lineup, or another round of spintalk from Williams trying to cover his own ass and convince us this lineup can continue it's success. Despite the fact Cleveland certaintly isn't degressing and Detroit, Minnesota won't remain pushovers for very long.

Edited September 20, 2005 by Flash Tizzle

[Balta1701]

My question is will any of you remain confident in this offense even IF it makes it to the postseason? Whether it's Williams or another guy, this team needs help offensively.

Except for Boston, every year since 2001, the World Series and the playoffs have been decided entirely by which team pitches the best. When it's crunch time, it comes down to pitching and defense. The offense usually just comes along for the ride.

 

I'm confident enough in this offense to win IF our pitching staff from the first half can rear its ugly head again.

[whitesoxgt]

And go back to Schueler and Manuel?  HELL NO!

 

We are very close now.  Two more good bats (3B & DH) and a reliever during this offseason will do wonder for the team next year. 

 

If we are going to fire someone for the sake of firing, Walker is the one.

 

 

I agree with what u said, but firing walker? i dont know.. i like him but maybe thats what this team needs. :-(

[southsider2k5]

Trouble is, the Indians aren't the only ones that are about to see the price of their team increase a lot.

 

In the next year, we've got AJ and Garland coming up for contracts, we've got a big question mark at 1st base right now, Crede is arbitration eligible and we have no replacement ready, and we don't have that much coming off of the books in terms of dollars either.  Plus Buehrle's getting fairly close to the end of his contract, and he may very well command an absolute fortune by the time that rolls around.

 

Right now, I'm starting to see a Sox team that needs to get a lot younger in a hurry.  I have a feeling I'm going to be saying that a lot this offseason.

 

We also have a 300,000 person or so advantage when it comes to payroll, and an older more established roster, that isn't going to get nearly the increases that the Indians are going to see.

[AnthraxFan93]

The rehaul started in the middle of 2002, so that's two and a half years of rebuilding.

 

Didn't KW try to trade Magglio to Boston as part of the A-Rod only to have Boston (I would love to see you try and spin that one on KW) f*** up?

Didn't KW try to trade Magglio to the Braves for Andruw Jones, but it didn't go down because Maggs never recovered and the Braves went back into contention?

 

Oh great, now I just gave you ammo how KW f***ed up a potential Jones-Ordonez deal. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So what your saying is that only 2 out of 31 teams had interest in Maggs at the start of the 2004 season, actually before the start of Spring Training? Looking at the 2004 squad what was needed more another Bat or try and trade for an actual starting pitcher?

 

Also, let compare numbers..two and half years VS 5 years..Hmm which would I rather have? Your Right 5 years is better. Also who is better built for the long haul.. Meaning after this year I say Cleveland has a 4-5 year run ahead of them, if we are lucky we have this year and maybe next year.

[YASNY]

When it comes right down to it, neither Ozzie or KW will be fired. The Sox are still very much in control of their own destiny regarding advancing to the playoffs, and I believe they'll get there. As people have been saying all year, and rightly so, once you get there anything can happen.

[RockRaines]

if we are lucky we have this year and maybe next year.

What makes you say that?

 

The young pitching staff?

Mark, Jon, Freddy, BMAC are all young and will be here a long time.

Bullpen-Cotts, Jenks two cornerstones are locked up and young.

 

Is it the young core of talent in the minors?

Young, Anderson, Owens, Rogo?

 

Im just wondering where you get that notion from. I feel like you are making a general statement just to be negative and prove and already weak point. We have position players in the minors ready to fill in for most of our positions that are occupied by aging or departing players. Not to mention we even have the problem of too many talented OF'ers. Also our pitching rotation is probably the youngest with this many wins, especially career wins and experience. 2/4 arms were home grown.

[ZoomSlowik]

So what your saying is that only 2 out of 31 teams had interest in Maggs at the start of the 2004 season, actually before the start of Spring Training? Looking at the 2004 squad what was needed more another Bat or try and trade for an actual starting pitcher?

 

Also, let compare numbers..two and half years VS 5 years..Hmm which would I rather have? Your Right 5 years is better. Also who is better built for the long haul.. Meaning after this year I say Cleveland has a 4-5 year run ahead of them, if we are lucky we have this year and maybe next year.

 

There wasn't that much interest in Maggs going around. He was a guy in the last year of his contract that was already getting payed a ton. Not that many teams could have taken on his contract for the rest of the year. It would have been like $14 mil if we dealt him in Spring Training (which we weren't likely going to do because we looked like a contender), or still 7 or 8 mil around the trade deadline. That's why Jones came up because he had so much money left on his deal.

 

Jones is a good player, I won't argue that. However, as I said before, I don't want him for what he's getting payed. Is he really that different a hitter than Paul Konerko, who a lot of people don't want to sign for more than $10 mil? I know, he's much better defensively, but is he really that much of an upgrade over Rowand? I'd rather not dish out that kind of money for a guy who struggles to hit .270. The fact that he is having a career year in terms of power numbers doesn't really change my mind. Adrian Beltre hit 48 homers last year, that doesn't mean he's suddenly worth the contract he got. Plus we would have been stuck with another player in Ortiz that was in the last year of his contract and was due a big raise. We almost certainly would have tried to resign him if we made the deal, which would have been a disaster. Having more than $20 mil locked up in Andruw Jones and Russ Ortiz is not the way to build a contender.

Edited September 21, 2005 by ZoomSlowik

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(AnthraxFan93 @ Sep 20, 2005 -> 09:06 PM)

So what your saying is that only 2 out of 31 teams had interest in Maggs at the start of the 2004 season, actually before the start of Spring Training? Looking at the 2004 squad what was needed more another Bat or try and trade for an actual starting pitcher?

 

Also, let compare numbers..two and half years VS 5 years..Hmm which would I rather have? Your Right 5 years is better. Also who is better built for the long haul.. Meaning after this year I say Cleveland has a 4-5 year run ahead of them, if we are lucky we have this year and maybe next year.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes that is exactly what I'm saying, after all I clearly wrote that only 2 teams were interested in Maggs, and that I would rather have 5 years of rebuilding instead of 2 and 1/2. That's why I wrote it.

 

:rolly

[fathom]

There's no comparison between Andruw Jones and Aaron Rowand. Jones is a superstar, and Rowand is an average all around player. Don't forget, Jones isn't exactly old, and he should be hitting his peak this season. But since there's obviously no chance of acquiring Jones now, there's no more reason to look back on what might have been.

And the difference between stats that guys had last year like Beltre, etc. is that there was no testing involved. By no means am I saying A. Beltre and others were on roids, but stats this year are much, much more relevant.