Bill Frist makes a stock market killing

[Texsox]

Since when is the burden of proof on the accused...............

Just curious about what you armchair constitutional scholars think about that since you're so eager to extend that courtesy to rapists and murderers.

 

Sorry, what I wrote wasn't clear. The Trust Company is there for Frist's benefit and to help him comply with ethics laws. Shouldn't he be the expert on those laws and work to stay within them? Or are you saying that politicians can use ignorance of the law as an excuse to break it?

 

In other words, the burden is on us to not break the law, not on the police to prevent us from breaking the law.

 

Nice try Nuke. Keep playing.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Sorry, what I wrote wasn't clear. The Trust Company is there for Frist's benefit and to help him comply with ethics laws. Shouldn't he be the expert on those laws and work to stay within them? Or are you saying that politicians can use ignorance of the law as an excuse to break it?

 

It seems to me just from what you wrote there that someone in this Trust company either was stupid or complicit. Whoever said that in going after Frist you missed the real offenders seems to be spot on.

 

 

But hey, don't let things like the presumption of innocence and the likelihood that Frist himself did absolutely nothing wrong stop you........we got ourselves a good ol fashioned Texas Lynching to do heaa. WOO HOO!!!!

Edited September 25, 2005 by NUKE_CLEVELAND

[Texsox]

It seems to me just from what you wrote there that someone in this Trust company either was stupid or complicit.  Whoever said that in going after Frist you missed the real offenders seems to be spot on.

 

Your honor my client is innocent because the police officer failed to patrol that area properly.

 

Come on Nuke, you are sounding like the ultra-liberal, society is at fault type, that I can't even respect. It's not my fault, I didn't know?? What happened to personal responsibility?

[Texsox]

Unless there is something more than one poor quarter, a 15% drop in price may not be that big of a deal to a long term investment. IIRC, Martha's stock was about to become worthless. A notable difference.

 

This just doesn't seem like a big deal, and with all of the other company officers selling, it is something he could have pieced together without insider information.

 

It looks to me like no harm, no foul, keep playing. But hey, I'm backing the Hammer in '08 I  Republicans.

 

Nuke, shall I read this to you?

 

Texas lynch mob? LMAO.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

From cnn.com

 

 

David Becker, who was general counsel at the SEC from 2000 to 2002, noted that both Frist and HCA were being put under scrutiny.

 

In insider trading cases, "you connect the dots not by simply going from one dot to another but by starting at both dots and working toward the middle," Becker said. "The facts that are public don't come close to demonstrating wrongdoing. It's way too premature to have any judgment."

 

Put the rope away Tex.........no lynchings today.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Your honor my client is innocent because the police officer failed to patrol that area properly. 

 

Come on Nuke, you are sounding like the ultra-liberal, society is at fault type,  that I can't even respect. It's not my fault, I didn't know?? What happened to personal responsibility?

 

 

Wanting to go after the right people doesn't make me an ultra liberal but hey, you get an A for effort on that one.

[Texsox]

Wanting to go after the right people doesn't make me an ultra liberal but hey,  you get an A for effort on that one.

 

Isn't the right person the person who is the Majority Leader and whose job requires him to conform to ethics rules? The person who may have been given inside information on his families business? The crime, would be insider trading and the trust fund manager would have no responsibility in that. SS believes that the Trustee was not allowed to take direction, however Senate ethics laws do allow Frist to ask that all his holdings be sold.

 

If you take bad advice from a tax accountant, you are still held accountable for taxes owed, interest, etc. Ignorance of the law is not a defense. Every Senator and Congressman has a responsibility to know the laws and conform to them. They can't blame it on someone else. That's as lame as the "I didn't know what was in that Balco syringe" defense.

[Texsox]

From cnn.com

Put the rope away Tex.........no lynchings today.

 

BTW, do you ever read? I've been saying all along that I don't think he has violated any laws. God I pray you go into battle better prepared or your co-workers are in trouble.

 

Notice that the investigation is for insider trading, something the trustee would not be involved in. So I guess we're back to investigating the one person who could have done something wrong, Frist. Or do you have another person he could blame? Perhaps his mommy for telling him?

 

And once again, it would seem to me, with all the public records of company officers selling, that Frist would not need insider information to reach a sell decision. I also do not think he would have risked this with a Presidential bid so close. I do not see him being charged with anything from ethics violations to insider trading.

[southsider2k5]

But earlier in this thread someone quoted a source  that the Senator is allowed some direction in his assets. Like directing the sale or asking for long term v. short term goals, etc.. Because the trust would be set up to conform with the Senate ethics laws, not SEC laws, it would have to conform to the ethical guidelines that Frist is under. From reading your comments, I think we both would agree that these ethics laws need strengthening if Frist is allowed to direct a liquidation of a holding.

 

I haven't really worked on the investor side of stocks, but everything I have read saids that a blind trust is supposed to involved a complete lack of knowledge by the owner of the assets. I think he could give a big broad generalization to liquidate all of his assets, but that would be about it. He wouldn't be able to say buy or sell specific sectors/stocks, or anything like that. The fact that he had knowledge and access to his holdings are huge violations by the trust company, and at least ethical violations by Frist for even asking for information.

[Texsox]

I haven't really worked on the investor side of stocks, but everything I have read saids that a blind trust is supposed to involved a complete lack of knowledge by the owner of the assets.  I think he could give a big broad generalization to liquidate all of his assets, but that would be about it.  He wouldn't be able to say buy or sell specific sectors/stocks, or anything like that.  The fact that he had knowledge and access to his holdings are huge violations by the trust company, and at least ethical violations by Frist for even asking for information.

 

Blind trusts are used to avoid conflicts of interest. Assets are turned over to a trustee who manages them without divulging any purchases or sales and reports only the total value and income earned to the owner.

 

To keep the trust blind, Frist was not allowed to know how much HCA stock he owned, Call said, but he was allowed to ask for all of it to be sold.

 

And that is what Frist did. Where is the huge violation by the trust company?? I'm missing it. I didn't see any problems in the way the trust was handled. The only issue is this; did Frist receive insider information? I don't think he needed it based on public documents of the HCA insiders selling.

[southsider2k5]

And that is what Frist did. Where is the huge violation by the trust company?? I'm missing it. I didn't see any problems in the way the trust was handled. The only issue is this; did Frist receive insider information? I don't think he needed it based on public documents of the HCA insiders selling.

 

The information they turned over to him about his trust.

[Texsox]

The information they turned over to him about his trust.

 

What information? He asked for the shares to be sold, and they were. Was there something else?

[southsider2k5]

What information? He asked for the shares to be sold, and they were. Was there something else?

 

Post #17 in this thread...

 

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...ndpost&p=888781

 

...See also Baltas posts #19 and #23 in this thread.

[Texsox]

Under Senate ethics rules, senators can directly order the sale of any asset known to have been in the trust before the metaphorical curtain was drawn. The senator also can communicate in writing matters of concern, including ''an interest in maximizing income or long-term capital gain.''

 

That is not how blind trusts normally work, said David Becker, who was general counsel at the SEC from 2000 to 2002. To avoid potential insider-trading conflicts, the beneficiary usually has no knowledge or participation in investment decisions.

 

If Frist was allowed to ask for stock to be sold, ''the question here is, How blind is blind?'' Becker said.

 

Remember the inmates are writing the rules. If this was a classic blind trust, SS is correct. But IIRC, blind trust rules are generally written by the institution who is concerned about the conflict of interest, and will be unique to that institution, whether it be the US Senate, the SEC, or Financial Reporters.

[Texsox]

Thank you. I missed that.

 

So we can't blame Frist for not knowing the rules. It's not his fault, the trustee did it?

 

Well there goes one challenger to Hammer in '08. I wonder what they can dig up on McCain

[southsider2k5]

Thank you. I missed that.

 

So we can't blame Frist for not knowing the rules. It's not his fault, the trustee did it?

 

Well there goes one challenger to Hammer in '08. I wonder what they can dig up on McCain

 

Just like anything, it takes two to tango. The trust company should be in pretty hot water for this. If Frist's side is true, he will have committed political suicide by most accounts, unless it doesn't stick like Hillary's insider trading.

[Balta1701]

Another on the Blind trust: CNN

 

Blind trusts are designed to keep an arm's-length distance between federal officials and their investments, to avoid conflicts of interest. But documents show that Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist knew quite a bit about his accounts from nearly two dozen letters from the trust administrators.

 

Frist, R-Tennessee, received regular updates of transfers of assets to his blind trusts and sales of assets. He also was able to initiate a stock sale of a hospital chain founded by his family with perfect timing. Shortly after the sale this summer, the stock price dived.

 

A possible presidential contender in 2008, Frist now faces dual investigations by the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York and the Securities and Exchange Commission into his stock sales.

 

...

 

Asked in a television interview in January 2003 whether he should sell his HCA stock, responded, "Well, I think really for our viewers it should be understood that I put this into a blind trust. So as far as I know, I own no HCA stock"

 

Frist, referring to his trust and those of his family, also said in the interview, "I have no control. It is illegal right now for me to know what the composition of those trusts are. So I have no idea."

[Balta1701]

The head of the SEC, former Representative Christopher Cox is recusing himself from any investigation into Frist.

[Texsox]

I just had a thought I would like to share. How many of us would be comfortable of placing our entire investment portfolio in a blind trust in exchange for public service? I can see the temptation to lift the veil of a blind trust. I'm not excusing the behavior, but it did give me pause. I'm willing to bet a number of posters here have peaked at least once of twice this morning at their holdings.

 

Too bad for Frist if this knocks him down.

[Balta1701]

On the other hand Tex...weigh the amount you might lose by not having control of your personal portfolio to the amounts you might stand to gain through that govenrment service...

 

Lobbying contracts after you retire, business contacts that help you find incredibly high paying positions, the lecture circuit, etc.

[Texsox]

On the other hand Tex...weigh the amount you might lose by not having control of your personal portfolio to the amounts you might stand to gain through that govenrment service...

 

Lobbying contracts after you retire, business contacts that help you find incredibly high paying positions, the lecture circuit, etc.

 

Good point.

 

There is probably a cross over point with the gazillionaires on one side and the "poor" millionaires at the other.

 

I wonder what the net worth is of the "poorest" Senator.

 

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/jul2003/sen-j07.shtml

bad source I'm certain but interesting reading of the numbers.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/06/13/senators.finances/probably a better source.

 

40 of 100 are millionaires. Honestly, I would have predicted 80 to 90 and wouldn't have been shocked at 95.

[Balta1701]

Don't forget...that's 40 of the 100 currently serving senators...I bet if you went in and looked at the numbers of Senators that had retired recently but were still employed...they'd all be making in the high 6 to 7 figures per year.

[Texsox]

Don't forget...that's 40 of the 100 currently serving senators...I bet if you went in and looked at the numbers of Senators that had retired recently but were still employed...they'd all be making in the high 6 to 7 figures per year.

 

They also do not have to disclose their residence, which for most people is a big chunk of their net worth.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

I just had a thought I would like to share. How many of us would be comfortable of placing our entire investment portfolio in a blind trust in exchange for public service? I can see the temptation to lift the veil of a blind trust. I'm not excusing the behavior, but it did give me pause. I'm willing to bet a number of posters here have peaked at least once of twice this morning at their holdings.

 

Too bad for Frist if this knocks him down.

 

 

I could never be in Frist's position. I watch my money and where I got it parked like a hawk.

[Balta1701]

New update...Bill Frist reportedly made somewhere between $2 and $6 million by selling his HCA shares before the bad earnings report came out.