You're the GM: White Sox edition

[Felix]

What, 13th? We are 13th in the MLB in runs scored. (granted, we are 9th in the AL in runs)

That isnt the fault of a lack of HR's.

[fathom]

Why will his numbers go up?  A hunch. I dont think a lack of production when it comes to HR's is really that big a deal.. I mean, look at how many the Sox have hit this year..

 

Until he starts hitting that righty slider, he's going to continue to struggle at the plate. His K/BB ratio is awful this season, and teams have learned how to pitch him.

[Felix]

Until he starts hitting that righty slider, he's going to continue to struggle at the plate.  His K/BB ratio is awful this season, and teams have learned how to pitch him.

Thats true. He needs to work on his patience at the place especially.

[sircaffey]

What, 13th?  We are 13th in the MLB in runs scored.  (granted, we are 9th in the AL in runs)

That isnt the fault of a lack of HR's.

You are right. It's not the fault of our HR evidenced by being what 5th or so in HR? We are 9th in the AL due mainly to our terrible OBP. Something Crede and Uribe have been abysmal at, yet you defend their offensive abilities. Stop defending the Sox players and look at them with open eyes. They are BAD offensively, and have contributed to this aweful offense.

 

While I don't advocate signing Furcal to replace Uribe because I think Uribe produces more than enough from the SS position for the amount of $$$ we are paying him, I do advocate getting rid of Crede. Joe's .304 OBP from an offensive position is ridiculously bad. Mueller's .375 OBP and .300 AVE would be a tremendous upgrade. Particularly considering Mueller would then be the #1 OBP guy in our lineup.

 

This team definitely needs to upgrade it's offense. The 2 most logical positions to do this at are 3B and DH. Pods, Dye, Uribe, Iguchi, AJ, and hopefully Pauly aren't going anywhere. With Rowand just signing a contract extension and being an overall quality player, that leaves 3B and DH. If you keep Crede, this offense struggles just as much next year as this year. 2 upgrades are needed...

[Felix]

If Crede wasnt doing as well as he is now, when it matters, then I would be all for replacing him. However, he's been probably the best hitter on this team when it matters, and he's 7 years younger than Mueller. We still havent seen Crede play up to his potential at the plate, but replacing him with someone who isnt that much better offensively and much worse defensively doesnt make sense.

I do agree that we should probably upgrade at 3b, but for Mueller? No thanks.

[sircaffey]

but replacing him with someone who isnt that much better offensively and much worse defensively doesnt make sense.

Why because Crede hits more HR? Mueller does everything else better, and not slightly better either. Crede's been getting "one more year" too many times. Replacing a .304 OBP with a .375 OBP for the worst team OBP is a significant upgrade. Especially if we are playing "Ozzieball." Whatever that really is...If there is someone better out there, like if Blalock becomes available then god, please do that, but Mueller is a definitely upgrade over Crede.

 

EDIT: Granted, Crede is the superior defensive player, a team starving this badly for an upgrade on offense can not afford to not make a move based on preserving perfect defense. You have to sacrifice some things. This is something you sacrifice.

Edited September 25, 2005 by sircaffey

[Felix]

Crede knocks in more runs, but I do agree with you that he has been getting "one more year" too much, but this latest month has really gotten me thinking about Crede's true skill. I would think about Mueller, but if I would have to pay him $2.5 million in free agency, I wouldnt do it. If it was a much lower salary, I would probably end up doing it and using both Crede and him over at 3rd.

[GoodAsGould]

Idonno in my opinion that starting lineup would score a lot more runs than our current one. Yes our HR total would go down but you got to remember we are on pace to hit 200 HR's again and while nobody would have Konerko HR power on the team Overbay and Tracy would go up taking into account our park and taking into account Tracy would be an everyday player. Right now we are 5th in the majors in HR's and how has that made our offense so great.

 

I still think they can hit around 170ish or 180 some HR's with that lineup and have a higher avg. Also hopefully more doubles 2. You do realize we are dead last on the doubles department.

[Felix]

Yea, I realize it, but when comparing Konerko and Overbay, I would rather Konerko's 40 HR and 25 2b than Overbay's 20 HR and 35 2b. Then again, adding Tracy would even it out.

 

Another problem I have with this deal is the defense. This deal takes alot away from our defense, and this team is built around pitching and defense. Without Crede and Uribe at SS and 3b, we would probably allowed alot more runs/hits this year (depending on who is in their place), and Konerko is great at picking balls out of the dirt. From what I know, which isnt much, Overbay and Tracy are DH's if they were in the AL.

 

Also, if they do add Furcal, he should hit 9th, not 2nd. Iguchi is perfect for the #2 spot, rather than the #3 spot.

Edited September 25, 2005 by Felix

[CWSGuy406]

Crede knocks in more runs, but I do agree with you that he has been getting "one more year" too much, but this latest month has really gotten me thinking about Crede's true skill.  I would think about Mueller, but if I would have to pay him $2.5 million in free agency, I wouldnt do it.  If it was a much lower salary, I would probably end up doing it and using both Crede and him over at 3rd.

 

You'd pay Paul Konerko $18 million, but wouldn't pay Bill Mueller $2.5 million -- for one year?

 

Are you kidding? :banghead

[DBAHO]

Yea, I realize it, but when comparing Konerko and Overbay, I would rather Konerko's 40 HR and 25 2b than Overbay's 20 HR and 35 2b.  Then again, adding Tracy would even it out.

 

Another problem I have with this deal is the defense.  This deal takes alot away from our defense, and this team is built around pitching and defense.  Without Crede and Uribe at SS and 3b, we would probably allowed alot more runs/hits this year (depending on who is in their place), and Konerko is great at picking balls out of the dirt.  From what I know, which isnt much, Overbay and Tracy are DH's if they were in the AL.

 

Also, if they do add Furcal, he should hit 9th, not 2nd.  Iguchi is perfect for the #2 spot, rather than the #3 spot.

Don't you think Iguchi could hit 20+ HR's if was moved into a run producing spot?

[witesoxfan]

Felix...

 

Mueller will not make $2.5 mill, let alone much less. Not a chance in hell. He'll get $4-5 mill a year in all likelyhood.

 

And why on earth would you bat Furcal 9th, who would end up being your biggest FA signing(and probably one of the most expensive signings period, which he will not be worth BTW, thank you Philadelphia and Jimmy Rollins), yet your 1-3 hitters will probably make half of that, possibly?

 

If he were to be signed - which I'd rather not, but instead put the money towards resigning Konerko - he would hit either leadoff or 2nd...period.

Edited September 25, 2005 by witesoxfan

[TaylorStSox]

Personally, I'd upgrade CF and DH.

 

Rowand

 

Our pitchers rely on a good IF defense. We only have 2 strike out pitchers. A slight downgrade in CF would put less burden on the pitchers than a downgrade at 3rd. Remember, the gaps at the Cell are some of the smallest in the league. Our CF doesn't need to have great speed, as evidenced by Rowand. Plus, the range of Dye and Pods can make up for some of what may be lost. Pods isn't a very good defensive player, but he is rangey.

 

We may be able to use Rowand in a package to land Delgado. Anderson could take over at CF. Some argue that Anderson may even be a defensive upgrade. Anderson couldn't produce less than Rowand. It's not like Rowand's selection at the plate is good. He leads the team in K's.

 

A strong defensive IF is crucial to the success of this team.

[qwerty]

Personally, I'd upgrade CF and DH.

 

Rowand

 

Our pitchers rely on a good IF defense. We only have 2 strike out pitchers. A slight downgrade in CF would put less burden on the pitchers than a downgrade at 3rd. Remember, the gaps at the Cell are some of the smallest in the league. Our CF doesn't need to have great speed, as evidenced by Rowand. Plus, the range of Dye and Pods can make up for some of what may be lost. Pods isn't a very good defensive player, but he is rangey.

 

We may be able to use Rowand in a package to land Delgado. Anderson could take over at CF. Some argue that Anderson may even be a defensive upgrade. Anderson couldn't produce less than Rowand. It's not like Rowand's selection at the plate is good. He leads the team in K's.

 

A strong defensive IF is crucial to the success of this team.

 

Crede is not even one > better than rowand. You want to be strong up the middle ( catcher, short stop, second, center) and why would we want to get rid of one of the best outfielders in baseball period unless we get a big bat in his place. Delgado is not that big bat. The marlins have no intention on trading delgado after signing him to a 4 year deal with an option for a fifth... even if some have speculated that.

 

Podsednik's and dye's range make up for the loss of rowands? Dye has vitually no range and whatever speed podsednik has is countered by him running in on balls that are past him and going back on balls in front of him. Seen very little of anderson in the field and what i have seen leaves me no reason to believe he will be better than rowand in center... once more one of the best in baseball.

 

Anderson could and most likely will be worse than rowand in his first professional year. He will strike out 150+ times in his first year with a ops around .725-.775 ( i think i am being generous).

[DBAHO]

Crede is not even one > better than rowand. You want to be strong up the middle ( catcher, short stop, second, center) and why would we want to get rid of one of the best outfielders in baseball period unless we get a big bat in his place. Delgado is not that big bat. The marlins have no intention on trading delgado after signing him to a 4 year deal with an option for a fifth... even if some have speculated that.

 

Podsednik's and dye's range make up for the loss of rowands? Dye has vitually no range and whatever speed podsednik has is countered by him running in on balls that are past him and going back on balls in front of him. Seen very little of anderson in the field and what i have seen leaves me no reason to believe he will be better than rowand in center... once more one of the best in baseball.

 

Anderson could and most likely will be worse than rowand in his first professional year. He will strike out 150+ times in his first year with a ops around .725-.775 ( i think i am being generous).

Rowand's got an OPS around that projection for Anderson this season qwerty. Anderson looked good in the games he played while he was up in the OF, 1 play in LF where it looked like he had no chance, he made it to the corner wall and somehow caught it.

 

I know everyone loves Rowand's defense, but for me, his OPS has to at least get back up to .800+, and the K/BB ratio MUST decrease from 4:1, for him to be an everyday player. If a team like the Yankees who could really use his defense in center came up with a real good offer, I'd take it. Dye could always DH or 1B if we signed an OF like Brian Giles anyways (but yes I know that's unlikely).

[TaylorStSox]

Crede is not even one > better than rowand. You want to be strong up the middle ( catcher, short stop, second, center) and why would we want to get rid of one of the best outfielders in baseball period unless we get a big bat in his place. Delgado is not that big bat. The marlins have no intention on trading delgado after signing him to a 4 year deal with an option for a fifth... even if some have speculated that.

 

Podsednik's and dye's range make up for the loss of rowands? Dye has vitually no range and whatever speed podsednik has is countered by him running in on balls that are past him and going back on balls in front of him. Seen very little of anderson in the field and what i have seen leaves me no reason to believe he will be better than rowand in center... once more one of the best in baseball.

 

Anderson could and most likely will be worse than rowand in his first professional year. He will strike out 150+ times in his first year with a ops around .725-.775 ( i think i am being generous).

 

 

1) Saying Delgado's not a big bat is crazy. He's still one of the most dominant LH in the game.

 

2) His contract was backloaded for a reason. The Marlins have made their last push, with the team that's there. Their organization is in a real, real bad situation. They're going to want to get somebody off of the books.

 

3) A strong CF is somewhat negated by the size of the Cell. The gaps are almost nonexistant, which is reflected in the 2b totals of our hitters.

 

4) While Crede is remarkably inconsistant...

-He's cheaper

-He drives in more runs

-He K's far less

-He walks just as much

-He's a better defender relative to his postion.

-He has more power.

-He's more valuable to a rotation that feature MB and JG.

 

5) Rowand's average at best. He's had 1 really strong 1/2 season. He may be a fan favorite, but don't forget, these are the same fans that have boo'd the second best RH hitter in the history of baseball!

Edited September 25, 2005 by TaylorStSox

[TaylorStSox]

Finally, the notion of an "offensive" position isn't that relevant in today's game. The only true offensive postion that exists is 1st. SS's and 2b's are changing that. They hit now. They hit for power.

 

 

If you think the 8th and 9th hitters are the reason that this team struggles offensively, then you need to put everything in perspective.

[qwerty]

1) Saying Delgado's not a big bat is crazy. He's still one of the most dominant LH in the game.

 

2) His contract was backloaded for a reason. The Marlins have made their last push, with the team that's there. Their organization is in a real, real bad situation. They're going to want to get somebody off of the books.

 

3) A strong CF is somewhat negated by the size of the Cell. The gaps are almost nonexistant, which is reflected in the 2b totals of our hitters.

 

4) While Crede is remarkably inconsistant...

  -He's cheaper

  -He drives in more runs

  -He K's far less

  -He walks just as much

  -He's a better defender relative to his postion.

  -He has more power.

  -He's more valuable to a rotation that feature MB and JG.

 

5) Rowand's average at best. He's had 1 really strong 1/2 season. He may be a fan favorite, but don't forget, these are the same fans that have boo'd the second best RH hitter in the history of baseball!

 

I am saying delgado is an unreachable ''big bat'' for us. They signed him to a long term deal for a reason... and that reason was not to trade him after year one.

 

They are no in as big of a bine as you make it out to be. Burnett, gonzalez, encarnacion, easley, mordecai, jones, alfonseca, valdez, and mecir are all free agents. Not to mention al leiter who they signed but was traded to the yankees, that an additional is seven million off the books.

 

Year in year out rowand has been a better fielder at his position than crede has been at his. While i agree crede is important to a ground ball staff... we have to give up something to get something. In this case it would be offense for defense... if we signed someone like mueller. Mueller btw is not afraid to knock in people in scoring position.

 

Year in year out rowand has been a better fielder at his position than crede has been at his. While i agree crede is important to a ground ball staff... we have to give up something to get something. In this case it would be offense for defense... if we signed someone like mueller. Mueller btw is not afraid to knock in people @ scoring position.

 

What it comes down to is both have large flaws offensively and one or the other will likely be shipped out of here ths off-season.

[beck72]

1. sign PK, AJ and Garland to new deals, locking them up for the next 2-3 yrs

 

2, sign Furcal [which would mean Uribe would be traded] Furcal at the top moves Pods to the 9th hole, and gives the sox flexibility for moving an OF prospect like Sweeney, anderson or Young in should Pods get hurt, or hit closer to .244 than .290.

 

The sox need to add someone with speed, who can hit for avg, and get on base [another lead off guy], replacing a current regular. uribe's inconsistent bat and low OBP is the one I'd move. [for a SP prospect who'd start the year in AAA but could move into the 5th spot like Bmac was able to] The best spots typically to add a lead off guy are in Cf, SS, 2b [though the FA market is bare here]. Rowand gives the sox some speed, good defense and some pop for a Cfer. Iguchi is fine at 2b. Crede also has the same questions as Uribe. Yet getting more speed , avg, and OBP from 3b......I can't see who the sox could add. Plus, Crede has come into his own this yr, meshing well in the clubhouse. i don;t think Uribe would be missed as much as Crede.

 

3. Add a DH who can hit .300 and have a high OBP [and who could play another position [Overbay would be a nice bat who could switch off w/ PK a few times a week--the sox could trade Brian Anderson in a deal for him] Frank could come back in a restructured deal but the sox can't count on him being healthy. They should make a move to fill the DH spot. Maybe a guy like Scott Hatteburg or Frank Cattalanotto

 

4. Add to the bullpen a guy like Scott Eyre or Ron Villone [get another LHP in here, esp as both the Indians and Twins have a lot of LH hitters]

 

5. Move BMac into the rotation and Duque to the Yanks for something [as long as the sox have a SP or two ready in AAA]

[GoodAsGould]

Felix I dont know if you watch national league baseball or hell any baseball outside of the whitesox but part of the defense would be adding Furcal at SS who is widely thought of a better defender than Uribe and he is one of the few guys who has a better arm than Uribe.

 

As for Mueller... yes he would be a defensive downgrade at 3B compared to Crede but he isnt a liability there and the offensive upgrade is much >> than the defensive downgrade.

 

Konerko is good at picking balls out of the dirt but he has very little range and im sure either Tracy or OverBay are just as good or better than him on the field. Also yes HR totals would be down but like I said we are on of the top HR hitting teams this year and look what it got us..... one of the worse offenses in the AL. In the new lineup I suggested we would have a much higher team average and we would have a consistent offense top to bottom... the only ? in the lineup would be Brian Anderson but he can do good too possibly.

Edited September 25, 2005 by SoxFan101

[Felix]

Felix I dont know if you watch national league baseball or hell any baseball outside of the whitesox but part of the defense would be adding Furcal at SS who is widely thought of a better defender than Uribe and he is one of the few guys who has a better arm than Uribe. 

I dont watch the NL, but for the prices that Uribe and Furcal cost, I would rather Uribe. I'm not saying Furcal is a bad player.

 

As for Mueller... yes he would be a defensive downgrade at 3B compared to Crede but he isnt a liability there and the offensive upgrade is much >> than the defensive downgrade.

Mueller is old.. how long can he keep it up?

 

Konerko is good at picking balls out of the dirt but he has very little range and im sure either Tracy or OverBay are just as good or better than him on the field.  Also yes HR totals would be down but like I said we are on of the top HR hitting teams this year and look what it got us..... one of the worse offenses in the AL. In the new lineup I suggested we would have a much higher team average and we would have a consistent offense top to bottom... the only ? in the lineup would be Brian Anderson but he can do good too possibly.

Strictly by the numbers, Konerko has the highest range factor out of any 1b in the AL, and 3rd in the MLB. On the other hand, Lyle Overbay has the worst range factor in the MLB. Paulie has a lower zone rating than Overbay does, but Overbay has committed more errors this year than Paulie has. Downgrading both defensively and offensively doesnt make sense to me.

Edited September 25, 2005 by Felix

[Felix]

You'd pay Paul Konerko $18 million, but wouldn't pay Bill Mueller $2.5 million -- for one year?

 

Are you kidding?  :banghead

Konerko is, what, 29? Bill Mueller is 34. Konerko is in his prime. Mueller is leaving his prime. And again, I said I would pay Konerko that if LAAAAA offered $15/5, not right away. I would originally offer Paulie something like $12/4

 

And why on earth would you bat Furcal 9th, who would end up being your biggest FA signing(and probably one of the most expensive signings period, which he will not be worth BTW, thank you Philadelphia and Jimmy Rollins), yet your 1-3 hitters will probably make half of that, possibly?

Your 9th hitter is a second leadoff hitter. He's not your worst hitter.

Pods has a higher OBP and is far more consistant than Furcal.

Edited September 25, 2005 by Felix

[GoodAsGould]

I dont watch the NL, but for the prices that Uribe and Furcal cost, I would rather Uribe.  I'm not saying Furcal is a bad player.

Mueller is old.. how long can he keep it up?

Strictly by the numbers, Konerko has the highest range factor out of any 1b in the AL, and 3rd in the MLB.  On the other hand, Lyle Overbay has the worst range factor in the MLB.  Paulie has a lower zone rating than Overbay does, but Overbay has committed more errors this year than Paulie has.  Downgrading both defensively and offensively doesnt make sense to me.

 

 

Well yes but Furcal is there for batting in the top of the order too. Something Uribe cant do because he is inconsistent his cold stretches are 2 bad for him to be batting that high in the lineup. So Furcal is a defense and offensive upgrade.

 

Mueller is 34 and getting up there in years. But he wouldnt be the long-term answer at 3B maybe like a 2-3 year stopgap. Than maybe Josh Fields will be ready or we will have to add a younger 3B in f/a. We arent going to get a guy like Hank Blalock so Mueller is a realistic option there.

 

For Konerko your looking at the stats wrong. The one you want to pay attention to is ZR and in that Konerko is worse than Overbay. I know its confusing I got it messed up too but the ZR is what you want to look at and both Tracy and Overbay are significantly higher than Konerko.

[Felix]

Well yes but Furcal is there for batting in the top of the order too.  Something Uribe cant do because he is inconsistent his cold stretches are 2 bad for him to be batting that high in the lineup.  So Furcal is a defense and offensive upgrade.

Again, from what I know, Furcal isnt that big a defensive upgrade, and his offense isnt anything to excited about either. Then consider the millions of dollars that differ the two player's salary, and I personally dont think its worth it.

 

Mueller is 34 and getting up there in years.  But he wouldnt be the long-term answer at 3B maybe like a 2-3 year stopgap.  Than maybe Josh Fields will be ready or we will have to add a younger 3B in f/a.  We arent going to get a guy like Hank Blalock so Mueller is a realistic option there. 

I'm not pointing out his age because of the long term answer reason, I'm pointing it out because at one point, he will stop performing the way he has been, and it could be next year. And I dont think spending 5 million on him is smart there's the risk he will stop performing.

 

For Konerko your looking at the stats wrong.  The one you want to pay attention to is ZR and in that Konerko is worse than Overbay.  I know its confusing I got it messed up too but the ZR is what you want to look at and both Tracy and Overbay are significantly higher than Konerko.

I was looking at ZR too, I pointed it out in my post that Overbay's was better than Paulies.

 

I'm all for acquiring Overbay/Tracy as a DH and keeping Paulie at 1b, or vice-versa, but to replace Paulie with Overbay/Tracy doesnt click in my head.

Edited September 25, 2005 by Felix

[GoodAsGould]

I'm all for acquiring Overbay/Tracy as a DH and keeping Paulie at 1b, or vice-versa, but to replace Paulie with Overbay/Tracy doesnt click in my head.

 

 

Well the only problem with that is Konerko is making almost 9 million this off-season and with the weak class of f/a coming up he is going to make a lot of money. Im thinking at least 12 million and I dont know about you but to me Konerko isnt worth that. Meanwhile go look at Overbay and Tracy's contracts they are making hardly anything.

 

Furcal's stats dont blow you away but with Ozzie he will have 50 plus SB's probably and he will give you 10-15 HR's.... he would be like what Iguchi is in the 2 hole this year but with more stolen bases. Having Furcal and Podsenick at the top of the order would possibly the best 1-2 guys in mlb together. Combined just those 2 will have more than 100 SB's.

 

Mueller is old yes... but he has showed no signs of slowing down so far and what he can bring is worth the risk of signing him to me. He might show his age but I think he will at least give us 1-2 good years. F/A is all about taking risks and he would be one of them.