You're the GM: White Sox edition

[Randar68]

Rowand's a perfect outfielder if you have an above average offense besides him.  The problem is that between him, Uribe, and Crede, you have three guys who are more defensive players than they are offensive.  That's fine and dandy in the NL, but in the AL, you have to be able to score.

 

 

That is exactly right... Somewhere in your lineup, you have to find a spot for a lead-off type hitter. If your CF'er provides you with Beltran or Edmunds-like offense, you can afford to have your LF'er be that type of Juan Pierre or Pods type of guy. However, if your CF'er doesn't provide you with any outstanding offensive characteristic, you are awfully hard-pressed to use a position like LF (that is comparatively easy to find productive middle of the order hitters)...

 

Here's the point. Unless you can get that middle-of-the-order production or a lead-off hitter out of SS, 2B, or CF, you're going to be severely handicapping your lineup because you need to have that kind of player shoe-horned in to another position that is far easier to find productive middle of the order hitters that you will now be lacking... If you have one or more power-players at those positions, it's far easier to field a balanced line-up by inserting that lead-off type player elsewhere in the field without compromising the balance of the offense...

 

It's all a matter of market scarcity... You want to build your everyday line-up around your exceptional players and taylor it to be most-easily adjusted via market options... in the market, power-hitting good-defense CF'ers are much harder to find and cost WAY more than the LF or RF equivalent...

Edited September 27, 2005 by Randar68

[Randar68]

While we do have multiple viable options, I'm not sure that they're a.) within 18 months of being MLB Ready, and b.) not going to be busy replacing other outfield spots.

 

Remember...of the 3 outfielders we have right now, I believe Dye's contract is up the soonest (save Everett).  In other words, just for free agent reasons, he'll need replaced first. (and the odds are his injury history may well catch up with him next season too).  That takes up 1 viable option.  Secondly...Podsednik is still a fairly big question mark, in that if he can't steal bases, he's pretty much useless as a leadoff hitter and a detriment to our lineup.

 

Rowand right now is the least of our concerns in the outfield.

 

If Rowand and his lackluster offense and over-rated defense are the least of our concerns, I'm sorry, but we're F***ed...

 

Pods has been hurt. the first 3-4 months of this season were not an anomoly. Dye is signed through 2006 and is our 2nd or 3rd best offensive player, while playing a pretty good RF (not great)...

 

Rowand doesn't provide you with a ( A ) middle of the order hitter or a ( B ) lead-off hitter. If he can't give you "B", then Pods must stay. If he can't give you "A" either, you'd better be out there filling that need elsewhere in the market...

 

Anderson isn't viable in the next 18 months? One of Sweeney, Young or Owens isn't likely to be viable in the next 18 months? Heck, as fast as Young and Owens are coming, I can't see them being overlooked for contributing in 2006 if needed in your prescribed injury scenario...

 

 

Clearly what we do with Konerko has a lot of bearing on what other moves and options the team will have to look at... However, even if you retain him, you've got to fill that DH role and you absolutely MUST find another middle-of-the-order bat...

 

Where these guys are going to fit is anybody's guess, with key defensive guys like Crede and Uribe and Iguchi being such a valuable #2 hitter... Doesn't leave many options OTHER than to replace Rowand, Konerko, and DH...

 

Signing Furcal allows you to possibly move Pods and add a better LF bat to the heart of the order...

Edited September 27, 2005 by Randar68

[fathom]

And Fathom, that also ignores the fact that all 3 of those guys should be better offensive players than they have been this year.  Just to toss that in...each one of them should be better than they have been (Ditto AJ).

 

Not just talking historical production...mainly just in terms of potential ability and what we've seen those guys do in stretches.

 

Until they prove it again, there's no way to know what their offensive potential is. Crede and Uribe are always going to be streaky hitters, who either look really good or just awful.

[ZoomSlowik]

Let's play a quick game of "which one doesn't belong in this discussion":

 

Aaron Rowand- .275 BA, .332 OBP

Juan Uribe- .252 BA, .298 OBP

Joe Crede- .254 BA, .308 OBP

Carl Everett- .245 BA, .306 OBP

 

Clearly those last 3 players are a bigger issue. With his defense, I have absolutely no complaints about how he is hitting. It'd be nice if he hit a few more homers, but it isn't crucial. Plus he's still fairly young and has really only had two years as a full time player.

 

I disagree with you that you HAVE to have a leadoff hitter or a middle of the order hitter at one of the middle infield spots or in center. Would you pass on Ichiro with our current roster because he doesn't have enough power? Of course not. Who really cares what position your guys play as long as you have the components? You really only need 3 guys that fit those roles and there are 6 other spots on the field. We've got 2 middle of the order guys in Konerko and Dye and a leadoff type in Pods. If we just get rid of one of the blackholes and replace them with a more solid hitter, that helps a lot, and even moreso if we get two replaced.

[ZoomSlowik]

By the way, my general plan:

 

-Everett, El Duque, and Marte must go. Try to package the latter two for a real hitter (like some of the lower profile guys I mentioned) and add a prospect if necessary.

-Resign guys like A.J., Garland, Politte, and whatever other lesser guys are due. (too lazy to look).

-Try to resign Pauly. I wouldn't go much higher than 3/$30. If it goes higher, so be it. If he does go, try like hell to get Giles, I think he'd do well. Put him in RF and move Dye to first, or DH depending on who is acquired in the first part. He could also be used as insurance if Dye gets hurt.

-Look into acquiring a serious bat, preferrably lefty, a la Teixeira, Dunn, Huff, or Ryan Howard. If a starter must be dealt, I'd lean toward Freddy or the Count. These two are more expensive than Garland and seem to be more inconsistent. Don't trade Buehrle or McCarthy under any circumstances. I'd deal any prospect except Anderson or Sweeney. Find a cheap veteran inning eater type if one of the starters is dealt.

-Look into getting a 3B. Blalock would be a priority, Bill Mueller is a fallback. A more dangerous hitter is important. Crede could be kept as a backup, or used as part of the deal.

-See if we can get Frank back at a lower cost. Let him walk if necessary.

-Acquire a cheap LOOGY.

 

The lineup should look something like this, depending on if we could/couldn't acquire one of the impact bats. I'll insert them as needed:

LF Podsednik

2B Iguchi

CF Rowand

1B Konerko/Teixeira/Dunn/Huff/Howard/other guys I'm leaving out/Dye

RF Dye/Giles

DH same guys as 1B and Tracy/Overbay/Thomas/whoever

3B Blalock/Mueller/other guy/Crede if we're desperate

C Pierzynski

SS Uribe

 

SP Buehrle

SP Garcia/veteran fill-in

SP Garland/veteran fill-in

SP Contreras/veteran fill-in

SP McCarthy

 

CL Jenks

SU Politte, Hermansen, Cotts

MR Vizcaino, Baj, random LOOGY

 

Edit- clearly I wouldn't bat guys like Teixeira 6th, or Giles 5th. I'd move them up to 3/4 depending on the rest of the lineup.

Edited September 28, 2005 by ZoomSlowik

[Randar68]

Let's play a quick game of "which one doesn't belong in this discussion":

 

Aaron Rowand- .275 BA, .332 OBP

Juan Uribe-  .252 BA, .298 OBP

Joe Crede- .254 BA, .308 OBP

Carl Everett- .245 BA, .306 OBP

 

That's a nice convenient discussion to leave power and run production totally out of the equation, isn't it... Where's the Church Lady when you need a quote? "Hooooow Conveeeeeeeeenient"

 

Plus he's still fairly young and has really only had two years as a full time player.

:headshake

 

I disagree with you that you HAVE to have a leadoff hitter or a middle of the order hitter at one of the middle infield spots or in center. Would you pass on Ichiro with our current roster because he doesn't have enough power?

 

Ichiro is a leadoff hitter, but not only that, but he'd be a far better CF'er than Aaron Rowand. On top of that, you're going to use a scenario from a last-place team to support your argument? Yikes!

 

Where is your leadoff hitter going to come from? We have ours in LF in a traditional and common place to have a #3, #4, or #5 hitter. What do we have in CF? a #7 or #8 hitter with no qualities becoming of hitting at the top or middle of the order. Ok, that's 2 positions wasted for 1 leadoff hitter. We already have Iguchi at #2 and he's a solid fit for that role, plays enough defense.

 

That brings us to Uribe and Crede. Uribe has more RBI's out of the #8 and #9 hole than Rowand has batting in the #3, #6, #7 positions... Not only that, but either or Uribe or Crede play FAR superior defense for their positions than Rowand, who you people STILL fail to admit has CRAP instincts in CF. How many times must he float on the ball... how many mile-high fly-balls have to fall in front of him? How many misplays on balls hit at him must he make? Does he have to circle the wagons a few more times for some of you to pay attention?

 

I have no problem replacing Uribe or Crede, but that help has to come from outside the organization. Rowand can be replaced a month ago for all I care, and it can be done internally. We're talking about 3 low-salary players who we want to replace at least one of. With what and how much is it gonna cost me?

 

Upgrading Uribe is gonne be VERY expensive if you want to look at Furcal. Crede? Bill Mueller is about the only option available on the FA market, and his durability is a question-mark.

 

Again, Rowand's replacement has been sitting in the dugout the past 4 weeks and makes the league-minimum. Now you can address the other big issues like resigning Konerko or not and how do you replace him... who will DH, how do you fill out the bullpen, etc...

[Randar68]

Ryan Howard.

 

WTF are you smoking? The Phils would want Buehrle, Garland, and McCarthy for him... There's no chance in hell.... If you had your thinking cap on, you'd have possibly included Jim Thome in the discussions if he gets healthy... Philly has no need for him next year...

[knightni]

By the way, my general plan:

 

-Everett, El Duque, and Marte must go. Try to package the latter two for a real hitter (like some of the lower profile guys I mentioned) and add a prospect if necessary.

-Resign guys like A.J., Garland, Politte, and whatever other lesser guys are due. (too lazy to look).

-Try to resign Pauly. I wouldn't go much higher than 3/$30. If it goes higher, so be it. If he does go, try like hell to get Giles, I think he'd do well. Put him in RF and move Dye to first, or DH depending on who is acquired in the first part. He could also be used as insurance if Dye gets hurt.

-Look into acquiring a serious bat, preferrably lefty, a la Teixeira, Dunn, Huff, or Ryan Howard. If a starter must be dealt, I'd lean toward Freddy or the Count. These two are more expensive than Garland and seem to be more inconsistent. Don't trade Buehrle or McCarthy under any circumstances. I'd deal any prospect except Anderson or Sweeney. Find a cheap veteran inning eater type if one of the starters is dealt.

-Look into getting a 3B. Blalock would be a priority, Bill Mueller is a fallback. A more dangerous hitter is important. Crede could be kept as a backup, or used as part of the deal.

-See if we can get Frank back at a lower cost. Let him walk if necessary.

-Acquire a cheap LOOGY.

 

The lineup should look something like this, depending on if we could/couldn't acquire one of the impact bats. I'll insert them as needed:

LF Podsednik

2B Iguchi

CF Rowand

1B Konerko/Teixeira/Dunn/Huff/Howard/other guys I'm leaving out/Dye

RF Dye/Giles

DH same guys as 1B and Tracy/Overbay/Thomas/whoever

3B Blalock/Mueller/other guy/Crede if we're desperate

C Pierzynski

SS Uribe

 

SP Buehrle

SP Garcia/veteran fill-in

SP Garland/veteran fill-in

SP Contreras/veteran fill-in

SP McCarthy

 

CL Jenks

SU Politte, Hermansen, Cotts

MR Vizcaino, Baj, random LOOGY

 

Edit- clearly I wouldn't bat guys like Teixeira 6th, or Giles 5th. I'd move them up to 3/4 depending on the rest of the lineup.

 

 

 

Helloooo fantasy baseball. :headshake

[knightni]

Jim Thome anyone?

 

He will be healthier next year most likely and can be had cheaply, I bet.

[fathom]

Jim Thome anyone?

 

He will be healthier next year most likely and can be had cheaply, I bet.

 

Phillies will pay 1/3 of his contract, but want big time talent in return.

[knightni]

Phillies will pay 1/3 of his contract, but want big time talent in return.

If the Sox take his entire monster contract, he can be had for less probably.

[fathom]

If the Sox take his entire monster contract, he can be had for less probably.

 

Not a chance in hell they'll take that full contract.

[Randar68]

So what are they go going to do if they dont get anything there asking for? Sit Thome? They will get a good package back, but he could be had, and it wouldnt be a huge blow to the farm.

 

Both Thome and Delgado at a MINIMUM will be on the market... perhaps Helton as well?

 

With PK a free agent and Kevin Millar out there, there are 1st base options in the market...

[Randar68]

Phillies will pay 1/3 of his contract, but want big time talent in return.

 

If that's the case, they could probably get Delgado for less...

 

We'll see what the bidding looks like, but we'd better hope Kenny can pull off some big moves, because the FA market is pretty barren and we need 2 middle of the order hitters somehow...

[ZoomSlowik]

How is my stuff that unrealistic? Did I say we were going to get all of those guys? Clearly no. I just said look into getting guys, and if they don't get them, then we move on. I'm basically looking at two moves: getting a 3B and getting a 1B/DH. Pretty much everyone I said has been mentioned at some point in the last year as being available, and that includes Howard. Clearly they have to move one of them, and moving Thome will be much more difficult. Besides the money and injury issues, he's a fan favorite and a big name. They'd get a ton more for Howard. I seriously doubt it would take 3 starters, but yes, their demands would be high. And it's not like I'm saying we're not going to have to deal anyone. I know that getting bats like Teixeira (okay, not so sure he is available, but it was mentioned earlier, and I don't buy them trading Delgado this year, but I digress) is going to take one of our good starters and possibly some of our top prospects. One of my possible ending scenarios is the same team except we deal for Tracy or Overbay and sign Mueller. Is that really that far out of the realm of possibility?

 

If it really makes you fell better, I'll add the rest of the stats. It doesn't really change that much.

 

Rowand- 74 runs, 12 homers, 66 RBI, .735 OPS

Uribe- 56 runs, 15 homers, 70 RBI, .711 OPS

Crede- 54 runs, 22 homers, 61 RBI, .765 OPS

Everett- 57 runs, 23 homers. 83 RBI, .736 OPS

 

None of them exactly blow him out of the water in your precious OPS stat, none have more runs, only Everett has significantly more RBI, and only Crede and Everett have significantly more homers. Plus Everett had the benefit of hitting #3 or #5 most of the year, so he got considerably more and better RBI opportunities, and gets better lineup protection with Konerko and Dye behind him. Do you think Rowand actually gets anything to hit when he usually has Crede and Uribe behind him? Rowand has the highest average on the team with runners in scoring position, but it doesn't matter that much where he hits in the lineup. Plus Everett's overall numbers make him look better than he has been because he was solid early in the year. Obviously he has been brutal of late. Also, you're using Uribe having 4 more RBI as a major arugment for your case. Rowand statistically has been at his best when in the 5 hole, and it isn't even close. He may not be a #3 hitter, but he isn't a 7 or 8 either. Looking back at my list #3 is a bit high, but I'd still bat him 6th at the lowest. I don't get the hate for his D either. Crede, Uribe, and Rowand are all among the best defenders at their positions. In all of baseball, Rowand has the 6th best fielding percentage, the 9 best RF, and the 2 best zone rating. Once you get past Jones, Hunter, Wells, and Edmonds, Rowand really has to come into the discussion.

 

Also, you keep making the assumption that Anderson can come in and be a solid replacement right away. To steal your line, "WTF are you smoking?" The guy hasn't done jack s*** in the majors. In his 28 at bats, he had 0 walks and 10 K's. 3 of his 5 hits came in that one start he got against Hernandez. The guy was striking out better than once a game in the minors, and you think he's going to come in and perform in the majors? He may be a solid defensive outfielder (not sure he's that much better, even in his short time in the field he let a ball drop between him and Uribe that he should have had), but he's not going to come in and be a major part of the offense any time soon. Frankly, his swing is so long I'm having visions of Joe Borchard. His numbers are better so far, but he still needs to drastically cut his strikeouts. Expecting Young or Sweeney to step in next year is even worse. At this point both are extremely raw.

 

You missed the point on my Ichiro example. You make it sound like power is the only thing that matters at traditional power spots, I mentioned someone with only 15 homers that is a RF (by the way, he's played a grand total of 3 games in CF since he was in Japan) that would be a major addition to any lineup. Frankly I fail to see how a .275 hitter is a waste of a spot. If that's your criterion, then half of the league is a waste of a spot.

Edited September 28, 2005 by ZoomSlowik

[3E8]

Also, you keep making the assumption that Anderson can come in and be a solid replacement right away. To steal your line, "WTF are you smoking?" The guy hasn't done jack s*** in the majors. In his 28 at bats, he had 0 walks and 10 K's. 3 of his 5 hits came in that one start he got against Hernandez. The guy was striking out better than once a game in the minors, and you think he's going to come in and perform in the majors?

I agree with you completely. Anderson doesn't walk at an alarming rate, averaged about 1 BB per 10 AB's in the minors. He won't come close to that batting at the bottom of the White Sox order. Between A, AA, and AAA, he hit a grand total of 28 home runs the past two years. Tell me how he is going to out-OPS Rowand in his rookie season.

[Randar68]

I agree with you completely.  Anderson doesn't walk at an alarming rate, averaged about 1 BB per 10 AB's in the minors.  He won't come close to that batting at the bottom of the White Sox order.  Between A, AA, and AAA, he hit a grand total of 28 home runs the past two years.  Tell me how he is going to out-OPS Rowand in his rookie season.

 

You don't think Anderson would put up a .750+ OPS his first year?

 

ok.. I guess. :sleep

 

He's gone from Great Falls to the Majors in 3 seasons... you think there might be a reason for that?

Edited September 28, 2005 by Randar68

[Chisoxfn]

Both Thome and Delgado at a MINIMUM will be on the market...  perhaps Helton as well?

 

With PK a free agent and Kevin Millar out there, there are 1st base options in the market...

Ya, I am pretty muhc convinced Carlos will be moved. His contract like triples this season to around 12 million a year (they really backended the deal and the 1st year was extremely cheap the rest of relatively pricey) and there is no way the Marlins can afford that. Especially when they will have to find a starter to replace AJ.

 

Delgado can be had and should probably be one of the first options the Sox look at. He's carried offenses before, is left handed, and is a total machine. Would be a great addition to this offense.

[Randar68]

Ya, I am pretty muhc convinced Carlos will be moved.  His contract like triples this season to around 12 million a year (they really backended the deal and the 1st year was extremely cheap the rest of relatively pricey) and there is no way the Marlins can afford that.  Especially when they will have to find a starter to replace AJ. 

 

Delgado can be had and should probably be one of the first options the Sox look at.  He's carried offenses before, is left handed, and is a total machine.  Would be a great addition to this offense.

 

Plus you could photoshop the Jobu sig to have Carlos under the hood...

[3E8]

You don't think Anderson would put up a .750+ OPS his first year?

 

ok.. I guess.  :sleep

 

He's gone from Great Falls to the Majors in 3 seasons...  you think there might be a reason for that?

He spent four years in one of the nation's top collegiate baseball programs? Reed went from Kanny to the bigs in three years, tell me what his OPS is.

Edited September 28, 2005 by 3E8

[witesoxfan]

You don't think Anderson would put up a .750+ OPS his first year?

 

ok.. I guess.  :sleep

 

He's gone from Great Falls to the Majors in 3 seasons...  you think there might be a reason for that?

 

Well if we're talking first year, then Anderson has a hell of a hill to climb. .910 OPS? Yowza

 

I don't understand where your constant hatred of Rowand comes from. He's not a .750+ OPS player...I view it more as a sophomore slump-esque year. Not many people looked at Podsednik this winter as a .310 OBP guy at the top of the order, they more or less penciled in an OBP around .350, give or take a couple points. They looked past his .310 OBP, because they knew he had a down year after an incredible rookie year.

 

Rowand is probably an .825-.850 OPS player in the future. Some struggles this year have a little to do with his huge success last year, along with a little bit of a lack of protection in the lineup. Last year he hit a lot at the top of the order, whereas this year he's been in the 6-7 hole all year long. That has more to do with it than you think.

[CWSGuy406]

You don't think Anderson would put up a .750+ OPS his first year?

 

ok.. I guess.  :sleep

 

He's gone from Great Falls to the Majors in 3 seasons...  you think there might be a reason for that?

 

Uhh, Anderson had an .831 OPS last year at Charlotte. That really isn't very impressive for that park... Heck, in his limited time at Birmingham, he didn't even put up an .800 OPS.

 

Frankly, I don't think he'd even come close to an .800 OPS if he played up with the Sox full time next year -- or anyone for that matter.

[Randar68]

He spent four years in one of the nation's top collegiate baseball programs?  Reed went from Kanny to the bigs in three years, tell me what his OPS is.

 

Minor League numbers for Rowand vs. Anderson:

 

Anderson:

2003 - age 21 - Great Falls 13G - 49AB - 2HR - 9BB - 10K - .388 .492 .592 1.084

2004 - age 22 - Winston-Salem - 69G - 254AB - 8HR - 29BB - 44K - .319 .394 .531 .925

2004 - age 22 - Birmingham 48G - 185AB - 4HR - 19BB - 30K - .270 .346 .416 .762

2005 - age 23 - Charlotte 118G - 448AB - 16HR - 44BB - 115K - .295 .362 .469 .831

Minor league totals (3 years): 248G - 936AB - 30HR - 101BB - 199K - .301 .369 .482 .851

 

 

Rowand:

1998 - age 20 - Hickory 61G - 222AB - 5HR - 21BB - 36K - .342 .402 .495 .897

1999 - age 21 - Winston-Salem 133G - 512AB - 24HR - 33BB - 94K - .279 .328 .504 .832

2000 - age 22 - Birmingham 139G - 532AB - 20HR - 38BB - 117K - .258 .312 .438 .750

2001 - age 23 - Charlotte 82G - 329AB - 16HR - 21BB - 47K - .295 .342 .526 .868

2003 - age 25 - Charlotte 32G 120G - 3HR - 11BB - 12K - .242 .316 .392 708

Minor league totals (5 years): 447G - 1715AB - 68HR - 124BB - 306K - .281 .332 .479 .811

 

 

Rowand had almost 2 times as many minor league AB's, yet Anderson was still able to put up similar if not better numbers at AA and AAA. He has a less-dramatic K:BB ratio than Rowand as well, and s***, he plays better defense too.

 

But hey, this guy, the career .851 OPS minor league who traversed NCAA -> big leagues in 3 years couldn't possibly surpass the great Aaron Rowand's <.750 ops production and greater than k:bb ratio could he>

 

golly...

[Randar68]

Well if we're talking first year, then Anderson has a hell of a hill to climb.  .910 OPS?  Yowza

 

Who the heck had a .910 OPS first year? That was Rowand's 4th season with the Sox and was a .905 OPS, which is WAY out of line with any of his past or since production... Nobody has changed Rowand's role or asked him to do something he's physically not capable of, as Pods tried to do for the Brewers...

 

I don't hate Rowand at all, you can't hate the guy, he's all heart. That said, I hate the irrational defense of him, particularly his mediocre and vastly overrated defense. Run into a couple of walls and a guy is suddenly irreplaceable.

 

Anderson was killing AA pitching before injuring himself and his production tailed off immensely at the end of his time in Birmingham due to it.

 

What does Aaron Rowand give you that Brian Anderson cannot provide. Please tell me. If you're hanging your hat on Rowand to come anywhere close to that .905 OPS year I have some swamp land in Florida for sale...

[Randar68]

Uhh, Anderson had an .831 OPS last year at Charlotte.  That really isn't very impressive for that park...  Heck, in his limited time at Birmingham, he didn't even put up an .800 OPS.

 

Frankly, I don't think he'd even come close to an .800 OPS if he played up with the Sox full time next year -- or anyone for that matter.

 

And yet Anderson's injury-limited partial season at Birmingham still surpassed Rowand's full season there in his 3rd-straight full-season at an incremental pace moving through the system...

 

Anderson also only had a whopping 439 professional AB's above Rookie Ball heading into Charlotte. That's the equivalent of ONE SEASON of game experience in the pros and he's in Charlotte hitting .295-.362-.469...

 

You want to look back at his season splits? Takes an adjustment period for every player. Look at Young's first half vs. second half splits...

 

Anderson's going to strike out (as does Rowand), but he will walk more than Aaron, play better defense, provide about equivalent power in his first year, makes the league minimum, and his potential is far superior... what the hell are we waiting for... because Rowand's "blocking him"??? BLAAA!!!!!!!!

Edited September 28, 2005 by Randar68