The Official "Fire Ozzie" Thread

[Dick Allen]

And who was the major component of bring in this pitching.  And developing Jon Garland instead of yanking him early al la Jerry Manuel. Ozzie did.  KW ever said that Ozzie brought up the pitching early last year.  It was him headmanning the whole change.  getting us a lead off hitter, making the fielding better, and getting us pitching.  Now you wish he didnt do that, well welcome to 2004 and 2003 over and over again.

Quit giving Ozzie all the credit for Garland, thats a lot of BS. Check Garland's numbers with Ozzie last year and Manuel the year before. Garland finally got his act together between the ears, it had nothing to do with Ozzie leaving him in to get lit up. If you still insist Ozzie is responsible for Garland's turnaround, then tell me what did he do to Marte?

[fathom]

Good for your opinion.  I trust Ozzie's judgement in that situation.  I think there may have been better options.  But ozzie knows more about baseball than you do.  he has played longer, knows the team better, and goes on that.  In fact, if he chose to pinch hit Garland in that situation, he would still know more about baseball than you.

 

I hate that freaking argument. It's the same as the one "if you know so much, then why aren't you managing?" Well, Ozzie had the athletic ability to be a baseball player in the majors, and 99 pct of the world didn't. If he has so much baseball knowledge, then why are other people that played the game completely baffled by the decisions he's making? Ozzie is a cheerleader, but he's the worst in-game manager you'll ever see. With the team slumping, we needed his guidance to rally this team down the stretch. Are you satisfied with how he's been managing the last month or so?

[RockRaines]

Quit giving Ozzie all the credit for Garland, thats a lot of BS.  Check Garland's numbers with Ozzie last year and Manuel the year before. Garland finally got his act together between the ears, it had nothing to do with Ozzie leaving him in to get lit up. If you still insist Ozzie is responsible for Garland's turnaround, then tell me what did he do to Marte?

Why not give Ozzie the credit? Garland gained extreme amounts of confidence under Ozzie. Cotts did as well. I will keep giving him credit for almost everything this successful season. You know why? He is the manager. He helped construct this team, he helped go in the right direction. He has helped develop young players, he has helped revive older players. He has put this "3rd place team" in the position to win 96 games.

[fathom]

If you still insist Ozzie is responsible for Garland's turnaround, then tell me what did he do to Marte?

 

It took one game for Guillen to start screwing over Marte, and he's never been the same since. Those two have never clicked, and I'm guessing Marte will have a stellar season next year somewhere else. I just hope we get good value for him.

[RockRaines]

I hate that freaking argument.  It's the same as the one "if you know so much, then why aren't you managing?"  Well, Ozzie had the athletic ability to be a baseball player in the majors, and 99 pct of the world didn't.  If he has so much baseball knowledge, then why are other people that played the game completely baffled by the decisions he's making?  Ozzie is a cheerleader, but he's the worst in-game manager you'll ever see.  With the team slumping, we needed his guidance to rally this team down the stretch.  Are you satisfied with how he's been managing the last month or so?

Yes, because only really good ballplayers are managers......

 

When he made the same decisions in the first half of the season, his moves were called genius, whats the difference now?

 

Im not happy with the player's performance lately, thats it. How many people did we leave on base last night? Im sure thats Ozzie's fault. Face it, this team winning 96 games is amazing in its own right. Did you really think that they were going to win that many games when you looked at the roster. There is a reason that the team loves Ozzie so much, and they play for him. You can play the blame game all you want, but you wont find any negatives in Ozzie that outweight the positives.

[VAfan]

It wouldn't be a "Guillen Sucks" thread without mention of the great Ross Gload now would it?

 

The guy hit .315 last year for us in spot duty when he was used properly. He showed in AAA he still has the stroke. Geoff Blum and Timo Perez couldn't hit .315 in AA ball, yet they got the call all of August while we lost game after game with no offense. Yes, Ozzie blew it with Ross Gload, who would have been by far our best bench hitter if used properly this year. I'd have certainly rather seen Gload up with the bases loaded last night in the 8th than Blum. And if the Tigers counter with Walker, then pinch hit Anderson. Instead Ozzie uses a guy in a critical situation who can't hit just because he's a switch hitter?? That's not good managing.

[Dick Allen]

Mr. RockRaines, you are a good poster, a season ticketholder who gives tickets away on this site, I have respect for you, but I really don't understand your logic. You mention how Ozzie knows more baseball than any of us, and how basically his decisons should never be questioned, but you ripped Jerry Manuel's handling of Garland. Using your logic, shouldn't Jerry Manuel, the AL Manager of the Year in 2000, know more about baseball than you, and questioning his use of a player be off limits?

[fathom]

Yes, because only really good ballplayers are managers......

 

When he made the same decisions in the first half of the season, his moves were called genius, whats the difference now?

 

 

I don't think anyone was about ready to call Ozzie a genius. I wasn't saying it, but there were some strong posters on here saying that they feared Ozzie's decisions were really going to hurt us in crucial games (when the playoffs were thought to be a lock). And for all the love the players are supposed to have for Ozzie, it doesn't seem like they're all getting along too well right now. My hope is he goes to Florida, an the Sox bring in Pinella, Torre, or Steve Stone.

[RockRaines]

Mr. RockRaines, you are a good poster, a season ticketholder who gives tickets away on this site, I have respect for you, but I really don't understand your logic. You mention how Ozzie knows more baseball than any of us, and how basically his decisons should never be questioned, but you ripped Jerry Manuel's handling of Garland. Using your logic, shouldn't Jerry Manuel, the AL Manager of the Year in 2000, know more about baseball than you, and questioning his use of a player be off limits?

Nicely put and all, but I wasnt ripping Manuel. Manuel was a decent manager, and its obvious by his success for the last 5 years......

 

Garland matured when Ozzie began to give him more confidence, and you cant argue with the numbers. You guys can try and argue little tiny facts all you want, and try and vent your frustration on Ozzie. But you were the same people who thought he was manager of the year in the first half. Funny how quickly you can turn on YOUR team. He has made this team, made up of average offensive players, and put them in a position to have the best record in the AL. To me, that is not even close to fireable, and mentioning it is downright ignorant.

[RockRaines]

I don't think anyone was about ready to call Ozzie a genius.  I wasn't saying it, but there were some strong posters on here saying that they feared Ozzie's decisions were really going to hurt us in crucial games (when the playoffs were thought to be a lock).  And for all the love the players are supposed to have for Ozzie, it doesn't seem like they're all getting along too well right now.  My hope is he goes to Florida, an the Sox bring in Pinella, Torre, or Steve Stone.

Calling him the outright manager of the year, is saying he is the best in the AL. And MANY larger baseball minds than anyone on this site, were saying that over and over and over.

 

Torre-less success with more talent, please

Steve Stone-not even the cubs would hire him, come on.

Pinella-he WAS a good manager.

 

Firing Ozzie after a successful season is so beyond knee-jerk its ridiculous. How can you even say this about your team.

[fathom]

  He has made this team, made up of average offensive players, and put them in a position to have the best record in the AL.  To me, that is not even close to fireable, and mentioning it is downright ignorant.

 

IF this team blows a 15 game lead with 2 months left, then either KW or Ozzie will be let go. Will KW try to fire Ozzie first before he becomes the scapegoat? It could become a battle between two very strong personalities. However, I hope it never gets to that, and this team makes the playoffs.

[RockRaines]

IF this team blows a 15 game lead with 2 months left, then either KW or Ozzie will be let go.  Will KW try to fire Ozzie first before he becomes the scapegoat?  It could become a battle between two very strong personalities.  However, I hope it never gets to that, and this team makes the playoffs.

Frankly, blowing a lead is not what this team has done. They have basically just kept their lead. The indians have played 26 over 500 ball. We are still a better team than Boston, New York, Cleveland, Anaheim (who clinched), Oakland. These are all teams that were supposed to be much better than us. We are better than they are at this point. There is no doubt in my mind that nobody will be fired.

[fathom]

Calling him the outright manager of the year, is saying he is the best in the AL.  And MANY larger baseball minds than anyone on this site, were saying that over and over and over.

 

Torre-less success with more talent, please

Steve Stone-not even the cubs would hire him, come on.

Pinella-he WAS a good manager.

 

Firing Ozzie after a successful season is so beyond knee-jerk its ridiculous.  How can you even say this about your team.

 

I can say that about my team because I see what's going on with them, and it's become obvious that Ozzie isn't a competent in-game manager (and I know I'm not the only one on this site who feels that way). It's not just the in-game stuff that makes me think he won't be back. He's already said all the stuff in the paper about quitting, which pissed off KW beyond belief. JR and Stone are very close friends, and I've been told by some baseball people that he's next in line for the GM job. The Torre or Pinella hiring would be an attempt at goodwill for pissed off Sox fans if this team chokes. Do you think there's anyway in hell they could go with the same manager/general manager next year if we lose the rest of our games?

[Dick Allen]

Nicely put and all, but I wasnt ripping Manuel.  Manuel was a decent manager, and its obvious by his success for the last 5 years......

 

Garland matured when Ozzie began to give him more confidence, and you cant argue with the numbers.  You guys can try and argue little tiny facts all you want, and try and vent your frustration on Ozzie.  But you were the same people who thought he was manager of the year in the first half.  Funny how quickly you can turn on YOUR team.  He has made this team, made up of average offensive players, and put them in a position to have the best record in the AL.  To me, that is not even close to fireable, and mentioning it is downright ignorant.

I still think if the Sox win the divison he should be manager of the year, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't rather have a slew of other guys making out the White Sox line-up card. Manager of the year really is a team award. A lot who win the award are looking for a job within 2 seasons. I can't get over him using Blum yesterday, and its the difference between the first half of the season and the second half. It was the wrong move. Blum can't hit, especially when he has about 5 at bats the last month. He rolled into the DP. The first half he probably breaks his bat and bloops one into RF, 2 runs score and Ozzie is a genius. Results aside, it is stupid managing, and while sometimes you get lucky, bad managing eventually catches up to you.

[fathom]

Frankly, blowing a lead is not what this team has done.  They have basically just kept their lead.  The indians have played 26 over 500 ball.  We are still a better team than Boston, New York, Cleveland, Anaheim (who clinched), Oakland.  These are all teams that were supposed to be much better than us.  We are better than they are at this point.  There is no doubt in my mind that nobody will be fired.

 

We've blown so many games in the last month or so, it's gotten ridiculous. This team is playing so f'n tight. I thought Ozzie was supposed to be a good cheerleader? You want to give him all the credit in the world for our great start? That's fine, but then he deserves a lot of blame for this August 1st to the present stretch. And yes, the players deserve the majority of the blame. They're not getting the job done. However, wouldn't it be nice to win a game once in a while that we're not supposed to because of a managerial decision?

[RockRaines]

I still think if the Sox win the divison he should be manager of the year, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't rather have a slew of other guys making out the White Sox line-up card. Manager of the year really is a team award. A lot who win the award are looking for a job within 2 seasons. I can't get over him using Blum yesterday, and its the difference between the first half of the season and the second half. It was the wrong move. Blum can't hit, especially when he has about 5 at bats the last month. He rolled into the DP. The first half he probably breaks his bat and bloops one into RF, 2 runs score and Ozzie is a genius. Results aside, it is stupid managing, and while sometimes you get lucky, bad managing eventually catches up to you.

His decision in that situation to use willie as a pinch runner to make Guillen hurry his play was a great move. Using Borchard as a pinch hitter in that situation. Is a great move. Bring up a switch hitter to keep that pitcher in the game, was a decent move. The pinch hitter swinging at the wrong pitch, bad play. Thats it. He is trying to put players in a position to succeed. And the player didnt come through.

 

I've never seen so much disloyalty before on this site, and it really is sickening. Someone performs for you all season, has people calling it "magical" "best team ever" "greatest summer of my life" and now he doesnt deserve a home here next year. Unbelieveable.

[VAfan]

Gload hasn't proved much to me *AT THE MAJOR LEAGUE* level.  Lights out at AAA doesn't mean crap.

 

Again, he had the best batting average of ANY White Sox player last year who got more than 200 ABs. Granted, he can't play the OF this year because of his shoulder issues, but Carl Everett went down in August, followed by Podsednik. Gload could have started all of those games (with Everett in left after he healed). And he should have been cultivated as the #1 pinch hitter off the bench. Ozzie just wasted him.

[Dick Allen]

His decision in that situation to use willie as a pinch runner to make Guillen hurry his play was a great move.  Using Borchard as a pinch hitter in that situation.  Is a great move.  Bring up a switch hitter to keep that pitcher in the game, was a decent move.  The pinch hitter swinging at the wrong pitch, bad play.  Thats it.  He is trying to put players in a position to succeed.  And the player didnt come through.

 

I've never seen so much disloyalty before on this site, and it really is sickening.  Someone performs for you all season, has people calling it "magical"  "best team ever"  "greatest summer of my life"  and now he doesnt deserve a home here next year.  Unbelieveable.

 

If the switch hitter is named Geoff Blum, it is absolutely the wrong move. The man can't hit from either side of the plate.

[fathom]

I've never seen so much disloyalty before on this site, and it really is sickening.  Someone performs for you all season, has people calling it "magical"  "best team ever"  "greatest summer of my life"  and now he doesnt deserve a home here next year.  Unbelieveable.

 

I totally understand what you're saying, and I respect how much of a loyal fan you are. But on the other hand, there were a lot of us saying that we were getting so lucky, and that his managing was going to come back to haunt us. Are we supposed to neglect the poor decisions that we keep seeing him make, and just say "Go Sox...win despite your manager"! If Ozzie can't handle the pressure of the playoff race, then I hope he enjoys ruining the arms of Dontrelle and Beckett.

[BigSqwert]

We are still a better team than Boston, New York, Cleveland, Anaheim (who clinched), Oakland. 

 

I disagree. We have not played well against any of these teams in the last 3 months. A losing record, I believe, against all of them in that span.

Edited September 28, 2005 by BigSqwert

[RockRaines]

Im done with this ridiculous thread. I still cant believe there is anyone who can think like this. I cant wait until we have another .500 season and everyone is begging for this team, or Ozzie again.

[VAfan]

Here's my list of what I applaud Ozzie for.

 

1. Managing his starters. Ozzie set the tone early that he was sticking with his starters for 100 pitches regardless of how they pitched early in games. Thus, Contreras and El Duque and Garcia would never see the showers even if they got dinged pretty bad early in the game. This has helped make our starting pitching second to none in terms of depth. And even though Buehrle and Garland and Garcia and El Duque have been roughed up in the second half, I think the first three guys will end up working through their issues and be very strong in the playoffs. To show confidence, you have to be willing to let a guy make mistakes.

 

2. Knowing his team. I love how he coined the phrase "smart ball" instead of "small ball" which everyone else wanted to call it. Up through July, we indeed played "smart ball." It was smart because it played to the strengths of the team we have. Pitching, defense, and just enough offense to win. He knew that our pitching was good enough to win low scoring games, but only if we scored consistently. So he decided to play for one run by stealing, sacrificing, and being hard on anyone who didn't give himself up to advance the runner. He made Iguchi his model citizen for this style of play. The result is until late in the year we ranked lower in the AL in batting and OBP than we did in runs scored.

 

3. Managing his bullpen. Ozzie hasn't done a perfect job here, but no manager does. Early in the year, he seemlessly switched to Hermanson as the closer. Cotts/Politte also emerged quickly as the best set up guys, and Ozzie used those three guys to win us a lot of close games. Ozzie also brought up and worked in Bobby Jenks when Hermanson's back began acting up. Plus, he eventually got some production out of Vizcaino. And though he's used Marte in way too many risky situations, I don't think it has actually cost us many games.

 

4. Keeping it loose and lively. Do they still play music after losses? They should. We need to keep loose more than ever right now. Ozzie's attitude is - as long as you give me your best, I'm not going to be hard on you that we lost the game. Give it your all, and then move on. I think that is a great attitude. It may be a lot easier to have it when you are winning at a .700 clip like we were early on, but it is important nonetheless.

 

5. Beating the weak teams. I'm not sure if this is due to Ozzie, but we have absolutely crushed the AL Central teams this year, as well as the other sub-.500 clubs (except Texas). Of course, this may be a great way to a division title, but may be a negative in the playoffs. I guess we'll find out.

 

I just wanted to put this on this thread so I'm not seen as an Ozzie-basher. He deserves criticism for his mistakes, because if you can't see your mistakes, you can't correct them. But overall I agree with those who point out he took a team no one thought would contend and still has the best record in the AL with it.

 

Moreover, once we clinch a playoff spot (which I hope is tonight), I think you will see a significant change for the better in this club. The pitching is still there. It is the offense that might actually come around.

 

GO SOX!!!

[Guest JimH]

The guy hit .315 last year for us in spot duty when he was used properly.  He showed in AAA he still has the stroke.  Geoff Blum and Timo Perez couldn't hit .315 in AA ball, yet they got the call all of August while we lost game after game with no offense.  Yes, Ozzie blew it with Ross Gload, who would have been by far our best bench hitter if used properly this year.  I'd have certainly rather seen Gload up with the bases loaded last night in the 8th than Blum.  And if the Tigers counter with Walker, then pinch hit Anderson.  Instead Ozzie uses a guy in a critical situation who can't hit just because he's a switch hitter??  That's not good managing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh my God, this post has so much drivel I don't know where to begin.

 

If you go back and read the game thread, you'll see I wanted Pierzynski up there to pinch hit, and even if they brought in the lefthander, leave him in there. He is known to be a guy who gets a big hit, and he undoubtedly would have amped it up after failing against Walker the nite before.

 

But, that aside, you are one of the guys who complains about all the lefty-righty matchups Guillen does, and then you want to play checkers with righty-lefty hitting match ups. Which is it?

 

Also, please forward your crystal ball, which assures us that Gload would've been our best pinch hitter by far this year.

 

You really need to take that Ross Gload poster off your wall, after all it was Guillen who gave Gload his big chance in the first place.

 

Ross Gload, savior? Only in your world.

[fathom]

You really need to take that Ross Gload poster off your wall, after all it was Guillen who gave Gload his big chance in the first place.

 

Ross Gload, savior?  Only in your world.

 

Just wait until next year, when our new back-up first baseman boots a ball. All we'll hear from the Friends of Gload is that the greatest defensive 1b of all time would have made that play, etc.

[Guest JimH]

Just wait until next year, when our new back-up first baseman boots a ball.  All we'll hear from the Friends of Gload is that the greatest defensive 1b of all time would have made that play, etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He might play in these next two games, I hope he does great, I am pulling for him big time.

 

But some of these "he would've been our best ..." proclamations are off the wall.