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Ortiz's season

Punch and Judy Garland

By Punch and Judy Garland
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RockRaines Grand Master

RockRaines

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QUOTE(redandwhite @ Oct 3, 2005 -> 04:34 PM)
Im glad you've come to your senses, and I feel no need to continue to discuss the first part of your post because it would only waste time.

 

As for how a DH can win over a player who plays gold... well hold on a second here, lets stop right there.  Slappy is second to last in both his Zone Rating and Range Factor and is middle of the pack for all other statistics.  With that being said, the statistics are a tad misleading, because slappy is a solid third baseman, but he doesn't deserve the gold glove, isn't a gold glove third baseman, and is only being percieved as one for something you've accused me of multiple times, popularity and bias.

 

not to mention i don't think its fair to penalize a player for a team placing him at a position where he has the best chance to succeed and help his team win.

Come to my senses? What part of thinking Hafner was more valuable to his team than either one of those guys? If you take Manny out of the Boston lineup, does he hit as well? I dont think so.

 

And I said gold glove caliber defense, which I think he does, considering he is a SS. In no way does he deserve the gold glove. Ortiz doesnt deserve the MVP, plain and simple. He is HALF as valuable to his team as A-rod is, because he only plays HALF the game A-rod does. Offense is fine and dandy to the casual fan, but I feel that it is only half the game.

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RockRaines Grand Master

RockRaines

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QUOTE(redandwhite @ Oct 3, 2005 -> 04:39 PM)
Messing around or not, that brings up another good point.  Right now David Ortiz is the biggest bargain in the game aswell.  Keep digging, pal.

It was a joke, actually takin a shot at A-rod.

 

Teens are so moody.

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redandwhite Grand Master

redandwhite

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QUOTE(RockRaines @ Oct 3, 2005 -> 09:39 PM)
Come to my senses?  What part of thinking Hafner was more valuable to his team than either one of those guys?  If you take Manny out of the Boston lineup, does he hit as well?  I dont think so.

 

And I said gold glove caliber defense, which I think he does, considering he is a SS.  In no way does he deserve the gold glove.  Ortiz doesnt deserve the MVP, plain and simple.  He is HALF as valuable to his team as A-rod is, because he only plays HALF the game A-rod does.  Offense is fine and dandy to the casual fan, but I feel that it is only half the game.

I just want to bump this considering earlier in this thread you advised me not to be an english major.

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witesoxfan Grand Master

witesoxfan

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QUOTE(redandwhite @ Oct 3, 2005 -> 04:38 PM)
The Red Sox win 90 games without Ortiz?  Not a single chance.  As for Slappy winning the MVP, I'll make a wager with you, if you'd like.

 

Not considering who plays the field and who doesn't

 

Hmmm...

 

ARod - .321 48 HR 130 RBI 124 R 21 SB(27 ATT) .421/.610/1.031 on the division winner

Ortiz - .300 47 HR 148 RBI 119 R 1 SB(1 ATT) .397/.604/1.001 on the wild card winner

 

Looks like Ortiz is better in 1 offensive statistically category, and it just so happens to be one of the 2 major statistically categories in baseball that is almost entire dependent upon what your teammates do.

 

My sig bet with qwerty ended in no one getting a sig, so I'll take a sig bet...why not?

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southsider2k5 Grand Master

southsider2k5

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QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Oct 3, 2005 -> 04:34 PM)
I thought Shannon Stewart was the MVP in 2003.  His numbers weren't close to that of ARod or anyone else up for MVP consideration.

 

MVP = most valuable player.  You take Hafner out of the Indians lineup, and I would venture to guess that there is a chance they don't win 85, perhaps 80.  You take Ortiz out of the Boston lineup, and they'll still win 90. 

 

ARods gonna win it anyways, so this entire argument seems to be moot.

 

And I wish more consideration would be given to this when looking at the MVP. This isn't the offensive player of the year we are talking about, its the most valuable player. Take David Ortiz off of the Red Sox and you still have Manny Ramirez behind him. Take Travis Hafner off of the Indians and what do you have? Hafner almost singlehandedly got the Indians back into the race, while Ortiz and Ramirez had big second halves and to some extent protected each other. Hafner didn't have the luxury of a second superstar behind him, and when you combine that with the 2nd half that the Indians had vs the 2nd half the Red Sox had, I think Hafners contribution becomes all of the larger.

 

The Indians won 75% of their games over the final two months of the reason, the Red Sox didn't do anything near that, meanwhile it was all Hafner pushing that run.

 

Heck with the fall from grace the Red Sox had, I think you could make a better case for ARod who had just as good of offensive numbers, to go along with a huge resergence of the Yankees. The Red Sox coughed up a big lead to the Yankees and had to back their way into the playoffs because of the White Sox sweeping the Indians on the final weekend of the season, averting their own choke job.

 

My personal MVP ballot would look something like

 

Hafner

ARod

Ortiz

Jose Contreras

Manny Ramirez

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GoodAsGould Grand Master

GoodAsGould

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If the Tribe made it to the playoffs and Hafner didnt cool down at the end Id say he should of got serious consideration. But the fact that he slowed down and Tribe missed the playoffs he shouldnt. People have to remember MVP isnt the best player its the one whose most valuable to his team.

 

Also there is no east coast bias when it comes to MVP I think it almost always comes out of the West recently... actually isnt the last person who won it that wasnt in the AL West Frank Thomas?

 

Finally since Ortiz and A-Rod are both in stacked lineups its hard to tell which is actually more valuable. Therefore you do have to look at numbers and overall A-Rods are better also he plays defense and in my opinion should win the MVP.

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witesoxfan Grand Master

witesoxfan

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QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Oct 3, 2005 -> 10:06 PM)
If the Tribe made it to the playoffs and Hafner didnt cool down at the end Id say he should of got serious consideration.  But the fact that he slowed down and Tribe missed the playoffs he shouldnt.  People have to remember MVP isnt the best player its the one whose most valuable to his team.

 

Also there is no east coast bias when it comes to MVP I think it almost always comes out of the West recently... actually isnt the last person who won it that wasnt in the AL West Frank Thomas?

 

Finally since Ortiz and A-Rod  are both in stacked lineups its hard to tell which is actually more valuable.  Therefore you do have to look at numbers and overall A-Rods are better also he plays defense and in my opinion should win the MVP.

 

 

Agreed on part one, agreed on part three.

 

And Mo Vaughn is the correct answer...1995.

 

Vlad - 04 - ANA(ALW)

ARod - 03 - TEX(ALW)

Tejada - 02 - OAK(ALW)

Ichiro - 01 - SEA(ALW)

Giambi - 00 - OAK(ALW)

IRod - 99 - TEX(ALW)

Gonzalez - 98 - TEX(ALW)

Griffey Jr - 97 - SEA(ALW)

Gonzalez - 96 - TEX(ALW)

Vaughn - 95 - BOS(ALE)

Thomas - 94 - CHW(ALC)

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southsider2k5 Grand Master

southsider2k5

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QUOTE(redandwhite @ Oct 4, 2005 -> 01:37 AM)
bump again.

 

Dude what is your problem? Is there really a need to repeatedly bump something just because someone isn't on line to read it? But noooooooo you don't look for trouble, it just miraculously happens to find you doesn't it? Crap like that is exactly why no one buys this whole poor little guy who gets picked on because he is different BS.

 

And since you just had to pee yourself waiting in antipaction for an answer here it is.

 

Basically you warped the arguement. I never said that Cleveland didn't have an offense outside of Hafner. You pulled that one out of your ass looking to inflame the arguement like usual. What I said was that Boston has a second offensive superstar in their line up, where as Cleveland does not. I would have to say that Manny Ramirez provides a little more protection than does Victor Martinez, considering that the differences between Ramirez and Martinez power numbers probably could have been the #3 hitter for the White Sox, I don't think there is much of an arguement there...

 

If you would like to look at the teams offensive numbers though, I think you will lose out there as well anyway. The Red Sox scored 900 runs to the Indians 789, if you want to look at the final output of any offense. Other than that Boston hit 8 points higher, was 21 points higher in OBP, and was 22 points higher in OPS. The only big categories Cleveland won was SLG by one point, and they hit 9 more HRs in scoring those 111 less runs. There isn't much of an arguement that Cleveland has a better or even equal offense to Boston at all.

 

And finally this is a friendly warning. If you are going to keep getting into arguements with everyone in sight on here, you aren't going to last here. Take that FWIW.

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redandwhite Grand Master

redandwhite

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QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Oct 4, 2005 -> 12:43 PM)
Dude what is your problem?  Is there really a need to repeatedly bump something just because someone isn't on line to read it?  But noooooooo you don't look for trouble, it just miraculously happens to find you doesn't it?  Crap like that is exactly why no one buys this whole poor little guy who gets picked on because he is different BS.

 

And since you just had to pee yourself waiting in antipaction for an answer here it is.

 

Basically you warped the arguement. I never said that Cleveland didn't have an offense outside of Hafner.  You pulled that one out of your ass looking to inflame the arguement like usual.  What I said was that Boston has a second offensive superstar in their line up, where as Cleveland does not.  I would have to say that Manny Ramirez provides a little more protection than does Victor Martinez, considering that the differences between Ramirez and Martinez power numbers probably could have been the #3 hitter for the White Sox, I don't think there is much of an arguement there...

 

If you would like to look at the teams offensive numbers though, I think you will lose out there as well anyway.  The Red Sox scored 900 runs to the Indians 789, if you want to look at the final output of any offense.  Other than that Boston hit 8 points higher, was 21 points higher in OBP, and was 22 points higher in OPS.  The only big categories Cleveland won was SLG by one point, and they hit 9 more HRs in scoring those 111 less runs.  There isn't much of an arguement that Cleveland has a better or even equal offense to Boston at all.

 

And finally this is a friendly warning.  If you are going to keep getting into arguements with everyone in sight on here, you aren't going to last here.  Take that FWIW.

 

 

I wasn't referring to solely you there, Jack. Everyone who seems to be for Hafner keeps on saying how the Indians have nobody outside of Hafner, and that is just ridiculous. You're point is... well not well taken, because really you showed me nothing I didn't already know.

 

I guess we'll just wait and see what the voters think in a month.

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