CYGarland Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Oct 1, 2005 -> 05:39 PM) First off, era for a reliever against one side is probably the most pointless thing ever. he gets righties out for then lefties as they hit WAY WORSE worse against him Marte Vs LH's 23 ip, 24 hits, 15 bb, 32 K's, 1 hr. Vs Rh's 22.1, 21 hits, 18 bb's, 22 K's, 4 hr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 QUOTE(CYGarland @ Oct 1, 2005 -> 06:37 PM) My point is Damaso can at least come in and POSSIBLY k a tough LH in a pressure situation. What Can Viz do again? We have Jenks, Hermanson, Cotts, and Politte who are much better and I mean MUCH better at getting lefties out then Damaso so why would we use him as a lefty specialist that's my point. I never said I don't think he should be on the playoff roster, I just hate how he's going to be used, he's not a lefty specialist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 QUOTE(CYGarland @ Oct 1, 2005 -> 06:45 PM) MY POINT WAS, I'D RATHER HAVE MARTE INSTEAD OF VIZ This argument started cause you said we need Damaso as a lefty specialist, and I said that's not where he should be used. Well that was 2 pages of pointless argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 QUOTE(CYGarland @ Oct 1, 2005 -> 06:43 PM) Marte Vs LH's 23 ip, 24 hits, 15 bb, 32 K's, 1 hr. Vs Rh's 22.1, 21 hits, 18 bb's, 22 K's, 4 hr Righties are hitting .238 off Dam as Lefties are hitting .261 off him. Also, I've been talking about what we've seen for Damaso as of late, I'll admit I didn't look up stats before I posted all of this but it's no secret that as of late Damaso can not get any lefties out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CYGarland Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Oct 1, 2005 -> 05:46 PM) This argument started cause you said we need Damaso as a lefty specialist, and I said that's not where he should be used. Well that was 2 pages of pointless argument. If he's on the playoff roster than what do you suggest we do w/ him? He should ONLY come in to face a tough LH if Cotts is unavailable or has been used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 QUOTE(CYGarland @ Oct 1, 2005 -> 06:50 PM) If he's on the playoff roster than what do you suggest we do w/ him? He should ONLY come in to face a tough LH if Cotts is unavailable or has been used. The only time I want him coming in to face a lefty is when it's just him and Viz left in the bullpen, anyone else in our pen besides Vizcaino should be in to face a lefty way before Marte. To be honest, neither of those two are going to get much work at all in the postseason if you ask me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CYGarland Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Oct 1, 2005 -> 05:54 PM) The only time I want him coming in to face a lefty is when it's just him and Viz left in the bullpen, anyone else in our pen besides Vizcaino should be in to face a lefty way before Marte. To be honest, neither of those two are going to get much work at all in the postseason if you ask me. I understand you don't want to see Marte come out of the BP unless ABSOLUTELY necessary. I'm not going to sit here and keep defending him, I agree he's been disappointing, but he also has the ability to K a LH if we need him....And Actually I meant we should have taken El Duque over Viz not Marte. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 (edited) QUOTE(CYGarland @ Oct 1, 2005 -> 07:04 PM) And Actually I meant we should have taken El Duque over Viz not Marte. Well that was a fun argument for nothing. We both got our points across, agree to disagree. Edited October 2, 2005 by Rowand44 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CYGarland Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Oct 1, 2005 -> 06:07 PM) Well that was a fun argument for nothing. We both got our points across, agree to disagree. I guess what I'm saying is I'd rather have Marte vs Ortiz then Hermansen/Politte/Jenks or Viz. But that's my opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 Against Ortiz, I'd put Cotts and Politte in before Marte. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 QUOTE(The Critic @ Oct 1, 2005 -> 07:08 AM) I would also go with BMac and Duque and leave Marte off the roster. f*** "matchups" - the matchup I like is this: Opposing Batter vs. Guy Who Can Get Him Out. Marte hasn't consistently been a Guy Who Can Get Him Out for two years. I dont know why Ozzie is so eager to keep this loser on the team. Duque isin't the greatest player but he makes Marte look like a high school pitcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CYGarland Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Oct 1, 2005 -> 06:28 PM) Against Ortiz, I'd put Cotts and Politte in before Marte. Cotts, IF available, yes. Politte NO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 QUOTE(CYGarland @ Oct 1, 2005 -> 07:31 PM) Politte NO. Can I ask why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CYGarland Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 (edited) QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Oct 1, 2005 -> 06:33 PM) Can I ask why? Ortiz vs Rh's = .....As much as Marte has been inconsistent, I think he's the only guy in our BP, besides Cotts, who could possibly get him out w/ the game on the line Edited October 2, 2005 by CYGarland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam8610 Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 If it comes down to McCarthy vs. El Duque, it will be the classic talent vs. experience argument. Give me talent any day of the week and twice on Sundays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ginger Kid Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Oct 1, 2005 -> 06:58 AM) I'm calling bulls*** on this one, the way Ozzie kept going to El Duque down the stretch when everybody knew that McCarthy was the better choice leads me to believe that Ozzie has some amount of faith in El Duque. I just don't see El Duque being left off the playoff roster. This is hardly a done deal seeing how it was reported by the Daily Southtown who have a history of getting things like this wrong. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ drop Vizcaino, he blows Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 You are way OVERESTIMATING what Vizcaino has done down the stretch. It's a LOT easier to pitch good in a low pressure situation than a high one. He's done very little all year round when the game has been on the line. That's why he only has 8H in 68 appearances & has racked up 5L. There is nothing in his numbers that suggest keeping him over El Duque for a final RH spot in the pen. The pen should be: Jenks, Hermy, Politte, Marte, Cotts, El Duque, & BMac. No other post-season team has that kind of talent in their pen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpringfieldFan Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 I can understand both sides of the talent vs. experience argument. One thing I would consider though, is that the only hitters in the National League who have ever even seen McCarthy are going to be watching the games at home. SFF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAfan Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 QUOTE(JUGGERNAUT @ Oct 2, 2005 -> 02:13 PM) You are way OVERESTIMATING what Vizcaino has done down the stretch. It's a LOT easier to pitch good in a low pressure situation than a high one. He's done very little all year round when the game has been on the line. That's why he only has 8H in 68 appearances & has racked up 5L. There is nothing in his numbers that suggest keeping him over El Duque for a final RH spot in the pen. The pen should be: Jenks, Hermy, Politte, Marte, Cotts, El Duque, & BMac. No other post-season team has that kind of talent in their pen. This is absolutely the correct move. The key here is that if you keep El Duque and McCarthy, you have two guys who can stretch the pen well beyond what any opponent can put out there. On the early side, you have El Duque. If our starter has trouble, El Duque could cover 1-3 innings. Indeed, he would be my first choice of a guy that could get us to the 8th inning. On the back side, you have McCarthy if we are in extra frames. That leaves Cotts, Politte, Hermanson, Jenks, and (gulp) Marte to solve the 8th and 9th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 (edited) Consider the NYY demise in 2004: Tue 10/12 @NYY 10, BOS 7 Box Score Wed 10/13 @NYY 3, BOS 1 Recap Fri 10/15 Postponed/Delayed Information Sat 10/16 NYY 19, @BOS 8 Recap Brown sucks Sun 10/17 @BOS 6, NYY 4 Recap 12IN Mon 10/18 @BOS 5, NYY 4 Recap 14IN Tue 10/19 BOS 4, @NYY 2 Recap Schilling Bloody Sox Wed 10/20 BOS 10, @NYY 3 Recap Brown sucks again Torre's decision to use Brown in game 3 over El Duque was the difference. 5 games in 5 nights. Game 3 Brown lasted 2 IN. Game 7 Brown lasted 1 1/3 IN. He taxed the pen in game 3, they were overtaxed with 2 extra inning games, & then he killed them in game 7. El Duque pitched 4 scoreless innings before giving up 3 in game 4. NYY took a 4-3 lead into the 9th when Rivera in his 2nd IN of relief gave up the tying run. Had El Duque pitched in game 3 chances are he pitches as well as he did in game 4. That means the pen is fresh for game 4 & Rivera does NOT have to pitch 2 IN of relief. Let's say Brown implodes in game 4. It's not likely to go extra innings then. The Series is 3-1 then. Now Mussina has a fresh pen behind him in game 5. The Yanks likely win it 4-1. Even if you assume that BOS still ties the series 3-3 you still have El Duque vs D Lowe for game 7. Much better odds than Brown vs Lowe. Edited October 2, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 Juggs, Good research! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 I am so glad we have this "problem". As much as I believe BMac is going to write his name in the Sox record book, I'd go with El Duque. Coming in the 7th inning at Yankee stadium, with that atmosphere, I'd feel slightly better with the guy who has been there before. He's proven to me money in those situations. That's the Brandon v. Duque. I'd be looking at Marte long and hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 This is a tough decision. And thank goodness it has to be made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 In the post-season it's really all about matchups. BMac http://sports.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/7484...r&type=Pitching ElDqe http://sports.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/6019...r&type=Pitching Vizco http://sports.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/6291...r&type=Pitching As a RP El Duque can be expected to get the following guys out: Giambi, Jeter, Posada, Matsui, Sheffield, Guerrero, Molina, Kapler, Millar, Nixon, Varitek. Can you say that about either BMac or Vizcaino? There's not enough experience there to say much about either of them. The NYY have never left El Duque off the playoff roster. They know better. I hope Ozzie does too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeman89 Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 i dont like marte at all...and i dont think it would make a big difference to go to the playoffs without another lefty arm in the bullpen. i mean, putting him in against a lefty for that "lefty on lefty" matchup doesnt fare him well, lefties are batting .267 or something against him, as opposed to brandon mccarthy, who although is a righty, has lefties batting only .182 against him. i say, if you need to get some lefties out in the playoffs, you put mccarthy in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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