Evolution, Creationism, & a middleground

[JUGGERNAUT]

http://www.yahoo.com/_ylh=X3oDMTEwdnZjMjFh...gtY3Nz/s/257376

 

Natural selection is the best theory going today to explain how we evolved. It's not perfect. It has it's flaws but nothing else can do as good a job. But it only addresses the how & somewhat the when part of the evolutionary question. It says nothing as to the why.

 

If you study the great philsophers or if you enjoyed Matrix Reloaded they all say basically the same thing: without the why you have nothing.

 

Some of these polls cited are pretty surprising. They say more about how the secularists are losing their grip on America than anything else. The lastest Gallup poll shows 53% of respondents favor Genesism over Darwinism. At least 67% of natural & social scientists view themselves as "spiritual".

 

The secularists need to step back & let the other side talk. Teaching natural selection

as a mechanism for evolution is a good thing. But teaching it in such a way that it offends those who believe in a Creator is not. Evolution is good, Darwinism is bad.

 

The middleground would then be to incorporate both philosophy & science in the same class. Many scientists & philosophers since the dawn of man have felt that the two go hand in hand & should not be separated.

[Kyyle23]

Whats that Sound? Its the Sound of juggernaut repeatedly trying to get into long drawn out fights over opinions of the way things go. It sounds kind of like this

 

[Wong & Owens]

Whats that Sound?  Its the Sound of juggernaut repeatedly trying to get into long drawn out fights over opinions of the way things go. It sounds kind of like this

 

 

 

Don't forget the use of opinions mislabeled as "facts."

[FlaSoxxJim]

No, no long drawn out debates for me. I have plans this evening. :gosox2:

 

But two things, requiring a straight up answer from Juggs.

 

First, as to the alleged lack of a 'why?' in the natural selection mechanism, I think the statement is incorrect if you will allow that a proximal rather than a distal 'why?' is still a 'why?'. In natural selection, one phenotype wins out over another phenotype and eventually supplants it in the population because it is better suited to meet the challenges thrown at it by the operant environment. That is clearly a reason WHY some phenotypes persist while others fall by the wayside.

 

The environment changes over time, and so must the extant phenotypes if an evolutionary line is to survive. Phenotypes cannot remain unchanged over time or they will lose out - the basic tenets of the Red Queen hypothesis.

 

If your accusation of the lack of a 'why?' is more distal in its viewpoint – lack of a higher purpose or a 'grand plan' - then you are correct. Of course, that is left out of the equation by design. And to try to insert any teleological end-point, including humans as the gleam in God's Eye back when organic life first got cooking, would be to undermine the very foundations of the science.

 

I've got a soft spot for the great philosophers and for the matrix fils as well. But Neodarwinism is neither a philosophy or a Hollywood screenplay. It isn't a religion either, despite your past assertions to the contrary. It's a science, full of all the best guesses, knowledge gaps, and iterative refinements that characterize all good science. Any 'why?' lines of inquiry that look to invoke a Divine Hand or some preordained goal of organic evolution do not belong in this (or any) science.

 

As for the second point, and all those proponents of Genesism. . . I sure hope they're fans of the Proponents of the Peter Gabriel incarnation and not that Phil Collins drek.

[Kyyle23]

No, no long drawn out debates for me.

 

Hahaha, you must not have read the rest of your own post.

 

But two things, requiring a straight up answer from Juggs.

 

Is such a thing possible? Especially in this debate?

[Balta1701]

As long as the proposed class also teaches about the Flying Spaghetti Monster theory of origins, we're all in good shape.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Hahaha, you must not have read the rest of your own post. 

 

I'll have you know a debate and a monologue are two different things. . .

[Kyyle23]

As long as the proposed class also teaches about the Flying Spaghetti Monster theory of origins, we're all in good shape.

 

that is hilarious balta. I dont know where you found it, but i laughed out loud when i read it.

[KipWellsFan]

to Juggs

 

Depending on the average density of matter and energy in the universe, it will either keep on expanding forever or it will be gravitationally slowed and will eventually collapse back on itself in a "big crunch". Currently the evidence suggests not only that there is insufficient mass/energy to cause a recollapse, but that the expansion of the universe seems to be accelerating and will accelerate for the whole of eternity (see accelerating universe).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe

 

Human life is probably random, and there's probably no way of ever proving anything else. Babbling in a language most soxtalk users have no interest in and constantly lumping Democrats, Agnostics, Secularists into a group negatively and ignorantly will get you nowhere in this debate, it's condescending and annoying.

Edited October 11, 2005 by KipWellsFan

[Kyyle23]

to Juggs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe

 

Human life is probably random, and there's probably no way of ever proving anything else.  Babbling in a language most soxtalk users have no interest in and constantly lumping Democrats, Agnostics, Secularists into a group negatively and ignorantly will get you nowhere in this debate, it's condescending and annoying.

 

The sad thing is that he keeps trying to engage the same debate, in which he refuses to acknowledge any other side of the debate.

[Mercy!]

I’ll just note that as long as Juggs continues to try to yoke an untestable question, “is there a God?”, to a discipline which utilizes the scientific method, he continues to demonstrate his ignorance of the limits of both religion and science.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Whats that Sound?  Its the Sound of juggernaut repeatedly trying to get into long drawn out fights over opinions of the way things go. It sounds kind of like this

 

I'm pretty sure this song is on that record.

[KipWellsFan]

catchy tune

[kapkomet]

Ahhh, faith evidently requires logic and scientific backing, as well as mathematical evidence, er something. :rolly

[Rex Kickass]

Evolutionism doesn't necessarily require the lack of a belief in a God.

 

However, I'm more and more convinced of the Flying Spaghetti Monster... I think it was the evidence of global warming matching the number of pirates left that is really doing it for me.

[Kyyle23]

Its a startling lack of pirates in this world. I dont know why this theory hasnt been more thoroughly researched. I will be careful when I eat my marinara from now on.

[southsider2k5]

Its a startling lack of pirates in this world. I dont know why this theory hasnt been more thoroughly researched.  I will be careful when I eat my marinara from now on.

 

OH there are plenty of pirates in this world. Only today they have evolved and they are now called terrorists.

[Kyyle23]

OH there are plenty of pirates in this world.  Only today they have evolved and they are now called terrorists.

 

Come on SS2K5, thats what you call a

 

 

boooooooo, you took out the funny in this conversation!

[southsider2k5]

Come on SS2K5, thats what you call a

 

 

boooooooo, you took out the funny in this conversation!

 

Ah, you can always go back and read the first post again. That will start the laughter all over again.

 

Heck I still think my test of Juggernauts belief in Democracy needs to be done.

 

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...ndpost&p=915099

 

PUT IT TO A VOTE!!!

[Kyyle23]

Ah, you can always go back and read the first post again.  That will start the laughter all over again.

 

Heck I still think my test of Juggernauts belief in Democracy needs to be done.

 

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...ndpost&p=915099

 

PUT IT TO A VOTE!!!

 

i dont think it would reaffirm any belief in democracy that he has, Juggs already thinks we are all narrow-minded and against him. Unfortunately, he doesnt seem to realize that he is the one that keeps throwing down the gauntlet to everyone else.

[kapkomet]

i dont think it would reaffirm any belief in democracy that he has, Juggs already thinks we are all narrow-minded and against him. Unfortunately, he doesnt seem to realize that he is the one that keeps throwing down the gauntlet to everyone else.

You're so illogicial and emotional.

[southsider2k5]

i dont think it would reaffirm any belief in democracy that he has, Juggs already thinks we are all narrow-minded and against him. Unfortunately, he doesnt seem to realize that he is the one that keeps throwing down the gauntlet to everyone else.

 

but, but, but majority rules

[Kyyle23]

You're so illogicial and emotional.

 

dont forget narrow minded.

 

And, in the name of the FSM, I am now a pirate! Aaaaargh!

 

[3E8]

As long as the proposed class also teaches about the Flying Spaghetti Monster theory of origins, we're all in good shape.

That is the funniest thing I have seen in a long time.

[SpringfieldFan]

I am glad I hold the Catholic position here. We believe the evolution theory could be (and likely is) true - but we just believe God had to be the ultimate force behind it and that humanity had a single origin. I guess my position can make everyone happy...or angry.

 

SFF