Evolution, Creationism, & a middleground

[JUGGERNAUT]

Not everyone. There are good people here at SOXTALK who are much more open-minded than others. They just choose to remain silent so as not to stir the pot. I love stirring the pot.

 

Seriously I remain silent for the most part too until I read a post where someone is knocking religion or spiritualism in general. Then I transform from a dove to a hawk.

Edited October 14, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[kapkomet]

Not everyone.  There are good people here at SOXTALK who are much more open-minded than others.  They just choose to remain silent so as not to stir the pot.  I love stirring the pot.

 

Now that's a great post, seriously.

 

Good call.

 

As a matter of fact, it's SUCH a good call, that maybe you shouldn't post here any more because all you do is "stir the pot". So doesn't that make you a TROLL?

 

And we all know what happens to TROLLS.

 

Edited October 14, 2005 by kapkomet

[Kyyle23]

Seriously I remain silent for the most part too until I read a post where someone is knocking religion or spiritualism in general.  Then I transform from a dove to a hawk.

 

Funny. Who was the one who starts these discussions, since you are the "silent dove" until someone starts knocking on religion? And who is ever knocking religion? I have read YOU knocking religions other than what you practice, but I rarely read others knocking different religions, if ever.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(JUGGERNAUT @ Oct 14, 2005 -> 01:44 PM)

They just choose to remain silent so as not to stir the pot.  I love stirring the pot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's called trolling.

[Balta1701]

1.  You obviously are not well educated in history.  That topic was discussed at length in another thread & the facts provided by the links are indisputable.  NeoDarwinism has led to nearly 200 million murders in the world.

Just because we discussed it in another thread doesn't mean that it's not a prime example of a guilt by association fallacy.

 

Christians have been responsible for some of the worst massacres in history as well. The Crusades were run by Christians. Does that therefore imply that Christianity is a murderous ideology? No of course not. That is guilt by association, which is exactly what you're doing.

 

2.  Only a closed-mind individual would conclude a straw man.

 

Ad Hominem Attack.. I claim you set up a straw man by stating that mentionning God to a believer in evolution turns them angry, in that you are using an isolated example of your own invention, something which may happen somewhere, to prove a general point. You respond by calling me closed minded.

 

3.  You are obviously wrong as evidenced by the first post & the line referring to God in the last one. 

When you say that you hope there will be fewer of another kind of person...that's coming awfully close. While I do conceed your point...it still sounds awfully scary to hear a person say he can't wait until there are fewer of a group with which he disagrees.

 

4.  A further acknowledgement that you are not well educated in history seeing that scientific knowledge was born out of philosophy. 

Again, Ad Hominem.

 

Until the advent of the scientific method in the late 19th-20th century science evolved by certain individuals pondering the mysteries of our planet & our Universe.

Prior to Darwin, there was Newton's Philosophy of Nature which clearly emphasizes this fact. If you have not read it you should.

This one fits under the category of the appeal to authority fallacy, in that it does not matter at all how Isaac Newton viewed the progression of science, given that we now view the progression of science in a different fashion.

 

For a more strenuous example...when Kepler released his formulas of planetary motion, he did not perceive them as actually representative of the way the planets move, but as a simpler model by which we could understand the beauty of God's creation. He even took the equations he had formulated and used them to design music based on them. At the time, science, philosophy, music, art, etc., were all basically viewed as part of the same discipline, so Kepler didn't feel he was representing something real, he in fact thought of his model as presenting a more elegant picture of the universe. This is not a way of thinking that anyone in this country today really possesses, as far as I know. We have moved beyond it. Now when a biologist publishes something, they don't immediately think how it would sound as a symphony...because we recognize that there are different methods of thought, and we interpret things in different ways.

Edited October 14, 2005 by Balta1701

[JUGGERNAUT]

I will respond to each one by item.

 

1) This thread was created in DIRECT response to another thread that took an opposing viewpoint & used language that was derogatory to those of us who choose to believe in both God & evolution. Thus it's a prime example of my being turned from a dove into a hawk. Had such language not been used I would not have created the thread.

 

2) You have failed to undestand a basic precept of guilt by association fallacy so allow me to educate you further. When a murderer makes a direct reference to a particular philosophy as to a central cause for their actions it strengthens the GBA to that source. In the case of Darwinists, & NeoDarwinists we have plenty of prime examples strengthening the GBA. Further we have millions of subjects led by such leaders who further adopted those sources as they were taught in school. Those millions that execute the murders further strengthen the GBA.

 

You mentioned the Crusades. There are countless books on the subject that have served to weaken the GBA over the years. Making the argument that these were massacres executed for lands & riches much more so than any faith in God. Indeed the more historians probe the Crusades the more they are finding that the majority of the fighting men would not be considered devout nor did they fight for any Godly cause.

 

What separates the Medieval Age from the modern age in this respect is that born from the Roman empire there was no separation of Church & State. Secularists would argue that such a separation is a good thing but moralists would argue the opposite. The modern world has lived under a separation of Church & State for the better part of a 100 yrs & in that time we have witnessed two world wars, been led to the brink of anhialation, & have witnessed 10's of millions executed as a result of Darwinian philosophy or some other secular belief. A moralist would argue that the Church at least serves as a conscience for the State. Before a leader can choose to murder or steal from other's he must first seek the blessing of the Church to do so because of the impact the Church has on his constituency.

 

The Church then represents a collective conscience for the heads of state. In the absence of such a conscience the only conscience that remains is that of the heads themselves. For civilized people that is an illogical form of governing.

 

3) I never stated mentioning God to a believer in evolution turns them angry. That's simply a lie. I stated clearly that if you mention God to a Darwinist it turns them angry. There is a BIG difference. I support the theory that natural selection plays a vital role in evolution. But I am not a Darwinist. I do not propagate that theory into a religious belief that natural selection is evidence that God does not exist & that we have no purpose other than a temporal form of survival in this Universe. That basically defines what a Darwinist is.

 

4) It is YOUR assertion that WE view the progression of science in a different fashion.

Yet you state it as a fact. If by WE you mean Darwinists then I would agree. If by WE you mean the bulk of scientists & those who work in the field of science throughout the world I strongly disagree. You can search on Google or visit your public library to learn more.

 

Again you make another FALSE assertion & a very large one at that by suggesting that NO ONE in this country thinks of science in relation to God in America. That's an easy one to disprove as there are plenty of faith-borne people working in the field of science today that have written books asserting to the opposite.

 

Likewise you appear fixated on biology & are ignoring quantum physics altogether. The reason why Darwinists are under attack is because the knowledge of understanding of QT has had enough time to make it's way through much of the educated world. QT changed everything from a philosophical perspective & now purpose has become exceedingly important.

 

As evidence, check out the film "What The Bleep Do We Know?".

 

I would agree that since the advent of the scientific method we moved away from a spiritual relationship with science. It became more pragmatic & more event driven than anything else. But I equally agree that since the advent of QT we are moving back to a spiritual relationship with science. Those scientific discoveries which were foretold by some centuries beforehand radically changed our way of thinking about ourselves, our relationships, & our Universe. It's why some refer to it as the "New Church".

Edited October 14, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[KipWellsFan]

QT changed everything from a philosophical perspective & now purpose has become exceedingly important.

 

You're darned rights. Pulp Fiction was so damn good and profound.

[Mercy!]

Juggs isn't fooling me. If he believed half the stuff he spouts off here, he and his wife would have 18 babies by now.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Juggs isn't fooling me.  If he believed half the stuff he spouts off here, he and his wife would have 18 babies by now.

Oh but he is fooling you. -- You think believe he has a wife.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Oh but he is fooling you. -- You think believe he has a wife.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

:rolly Smack in a thread like this. Three kids is enough. I don't know how my parents ever managed 5 natural & 4 foster kids .. but if we do take in foster kids it will be after the natural ones are living on their own.

[Balance]

Hey, you guys are right. I have heard this song before.

 

Just like a record, it spins around and around, and when you reach the groove in the center, you never go anywhere.