Official ruling

[Funkman7]

WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA........ just wait a minute......

 

there was a baseball game tonight?

 

that was funny.

[The Critic]

If AJ really thought the ball hit the dirt, then why did he take a step towards the dugout? Good deke AJ.

I'd have to assume that AJ thought Paul was going to tag him, then when he didn't he realized what might be going on.

 

Crazy situation but obviously we're way less upset about it than Angels fans. Imagine this place if that had happened to Buerhle/AJ in the TOP of the 9th?

.....oh, the humanity.....

[Y2HH]

You never like plays like this unless they go your way. This one went our way.

 

I'd have to assume that AJ thought Paul was going to tag him, then when he didn't he realized what might be going on.

 

Crazy situation but obviously we're way less upset about it than Angels fans. Imagine this place if that had happened to Buerhle/AJ in the TOP of the 9th?

.....oh, the humanity.....

[Controlled Chaos]

There's really no need to argue whether he caught it or not. It's the umps call. It's like arguing balls and strikes...Sometimes they're right sometimes they're wrong. What can't be argued is whether or not he said "You're Out" which he didnt. The ump was very clear in the press conference last night. He never said 'You're Out' and he was waiting for Josh Paul to tag AJ.

[Texsox]

There's really no need to argue whether he caught it or not.  It's the umps call.  It's like arguing balls and strikes...Sometimes they're right sometimes they're wrong.  What can't be argued is whether or not he said "You're Out" which he didnt.  The ump was very clear in the press conference last night.  He never said 'You're Out' and he was waiting for Josh Paul to tag AJ.

 

I think this has been one of the best discussions we have had on any subject

[southsider2k5]

I think this has been one of the best discussions we have had on any subject 

I agree. Most excellent.

[Controlled Chaos]

I think this has been one of the best discussions we have had on any subject 

Wow, I thought these props were going to me for my measily little post, but I just got through reading the whole thread and realized Krush and Rex had a great debate. Of course I have to side with Rex cause he pretty much has the same take as I do on it, but great discussion guys.

 

I also didn't think the ump was suppose to say "no catch, no catch" cause that is more or less telling them what to do. Rex came up with a great comparison with this comment:

 

 

It's the same as if a runner slides at the plate and never touches it and the catcher never tags him. You don't say anything, you just do nothing. It is up to the players to play the game if you don't call him out.

[shakes]

There's really no need to argue whether he caught it or not.  It's the umps call.  It's like arguing balls and strikes...Sometimes they're right sometimes they're wrong.  What can't be argued is whether or not he said "You're Out" which he didnt.  The ump was very clear in the press conference last night.  He never said 'You're Out' and he was waiting for Josh Paul to tag AJ.

 

 

Also, AJ was behind the plate the whole game. He new the umps mechanics and verbal calls. Paul had just gotten into the game. He's also a backup catcher who rarely sees playing time. I doubt he's very familiar with Eddings.

 

I'm siding woth AJ on this.

[Controlled Chaos]

Also, AJ was behind the plate the whole game. He new the umps mechanics and verbal calls. Paul had just gotten into the game. He's also a backup catcher who rarely sees playing time. I doubt he's very familiar with Eddings.

 

I'm siding woth AJ on this.

 

I agree and if Molina was behind the plate there is no way this play even happens. AJ turned and ran to cause he didn't hear "you're out", which he heard all game long. I'll bet if it was anybody else on the sox up there they would have proceeded to the dugout.

[Texsox]

I thought AJ's comments about is happening last season in SF also added to his awareness and experience.

 

But of course we are seeing this in black and white, while Angel fans are seeing red. too subtle?

[Molto]

I don't really care what the Ump did as far as signals go because of two reasons:

 

#1 - One, he was making those same motions all day.

 

#2 - The Angels are arguing he made the fist, but they weren't waiting for it. Paul threw the ball and ran off the field before Eddings started to make his call. Paul assumed the umpire saw him caught the ball.

 

The key thing in my opinion is what Eddings said, because Paul wasn't paying attention to what Eddings was motioning (Paul had his back turned the whole time).

 

And since Pierzynski first tried to avoid the tag by bending his back and then ran, you have to question if Eddings called him out.

 

I think it was a weird play and I think MLB needs to come up with a universal out call, but Paul's decision to throw the ball didn't happen because of Eddings fist. He did so because he thought he caught the ball.

[Texsox]

This has happened once in over 100 years, I don't think we need to eliminate the tradition of umpires having different mechanics over one problem. I think the differences are a part of baseball I wouldn't want to lose. It's part of the charm, the character of the game.

[southsider2k5]

All of this makes me wonder if Eddings had stayed in a Holiday Express last night, would we be even having this discussion?

[zach61]

While I agree with you 100%, that situation didn't result in a run for the Angels.  That would weaken our "they got some breaks with calls, too" argument on that particular instance.

 

Glad we won, just pointing that out.

 

 

And that call safe call at 1st didn't result in a run for the White Sox. It was the steal by Ozuna and a hit by Crede. Even the hit by Crede might not score the run if Ozuna doesn't swipe 2nd. So you can say they got a break and we got a break and both capitalized on their breaks.

Edited October 13, 2005 by zach61

[Molto]

This has happened once in over 100 years, I don't think we need to eliminate the tradition of umpires having different mechanics over one problem. I think the differences are a part of baseball I wouldn't want to lose. It's part of the charm, the character of the game.

 

That's a good point, but if everyone is going to go crazy over what the umpire physically did, then the motions need to be straightened out. And this has only happened once over a hundred years because catchers usually place the tag or the batter usually concedes the out by going to the dugout.

 

Nonetheless, I still don't buy Paul's decision, because he didn't toss the ball because of the umpires call, but because of an assumption he had.

[Texsox]

To add a thought to the "Josh Paul Couldn't See the Call" theory. In defense to an Illinois guy, he could see his teammate's reactions. If there had not been the fist pump call, he may have tossed to first, etc. He saw his first baseman heading to the dugout and reacted along the same lines.

[YASNY]

It just does Yas.  In that situation, he should have extended his right arm as he first did, and then did nothing until an out was recorded.  If you see an earlier at bat where the ball skipped into AJ's glove, he waited until AJ tagged Molina (I believe) to signal with his fist. 

 

Because it was strike three and the play was still live with no out recorded, the fist pump should not have taken place at that time.

 

I heard Harold Reynolds say this morning the he uses that fist pump for strike one, strike two and strike three. That is his strike call, not an out call. What he should have done with Molina was pump for strike, then call or punch him out. He didn't do, but I don't know why.

 

The point is that is his swinging STRIKE mechanism.

[Balta1701]

I'd have to assume that AJ thought Paul was going to tag him, then when he didn't he realized what might be going on.

I don't think AJ at first had a clue that the ball might have been in the dirt. He would have known it was low, but he would have had just as bad a view as everyone else on the field.

 

The thing that sent AJ to first was the fact that he didn't here the ump say "You're out", and it took him about a step or so to realize that.

 

The problem for the Angels was that Josh paul didn't realize that he didn't say it.

[Balta1701]

Nonetheless, I still don't buy Paul's decision, because he didn't toss the ball because of the umpires call, but because of an assumption he had.

Let's think of it this way...I keep going back to the football analogy because I think it's quite apt.

 

If you're a defensive back, and you see a receiver catch a ball right up against the ground where it looks like the ball is trapped...do you stop playing right there, or do you go up and put a hand on the guy while he's still on the ground?

 

If you just stop right there, without hearing a clear whistle, and assume that the ball was trapped...then the receiver gets up and runs into the end zone...you're relying entirely on your assumption that the ball was trapped. If the Replay then shows that its ambiguous, then the play could very well end up being a touchdown.

 

The fact is that Paul assumed he caught the ball, when no one in this world can truly tell unless God himself is walking amongst us or someone has a solid knowledge of the force. By not calling him out, the ump almost made the safest call, because he had no way of knowing if it skipped or not either, and that puts the onus back on the player to do his job and tag the runner.

 

Just like in football...on the field, if there's a chance at a trapped ball, you try to let the play run until it's actually completed and the guy is firmly tackled, then you go back to the replay or discuss with the other refs whether or not the ball was actually caught. You don't stop play without knowing for sure; you let the player make sure it's over.

[SpringfieldFan]

If you want to get literal on this, how about we define the word "out". The official score is that AJ had a strikeout. He was out; his batting average went down. Therefore, if the ump signaled "out" with his fist, that is not technically incorrect. Its a reach, and its nitpicky I know...

 

Another thing, if the ump indisputibly signaled AJ out, is it still his prerogative to reverse himself? I am thinking of times umps have signaled out on plays at the plate and then seen the ball loose and signaled safe. Seems a comparable situation to me.

 

Finally, I think this may finally be the effects of the Angels' fatigue finally being realized. Fatigue causes errors in judgment and worsens reaction time and reflexes. I bet if Josh Paul was fully rested he would have heard that little voice in his head telling him to tag AJ out as a precaution. Just a thought.

 

SFF

Edited October 13, 2005 by SpringfieldFan

[agame]

Did anyone see the replay from AJ's San Francisco game. If you look closely, the umpire makes a similar closed fist motion to his right and yet that play stood just as last night's did. It would be interesting to check out video on how this umpire as well as others call this type of play. However, I don't think it's something the media would do because they LOVE the controversy.

I agree with many of you that the main thing is that Josh Paul was too presumptuous and with so much on the line he didn't cover all of his bases.

[AddisonStSox]

Just to shed some light on this from an experienced plate umpire.

 

Regardless of whether or not the ball hit the ground, the umpire ruled 'out.' An arm extended means strike 3, the fist means 'batter is out'.  Once he does this, he CANNOT ask for help at all. He's out, regardless of whether the ball hit the dirt or whatever any other umpire says.

 

I'll take it. Sox win. But this is the most ridiculous thing i've ever seen.

 

I didn't even want to come on Soxtalk after last night's "win." But, you nailed it.

 

I'm a patched umpire as well and as soon as the home plate umpire punched him "out" with the fist, the play should have been over. He needed to yell at Pierzynski to stop running down the line and call him back.

 

Bad call.

 

Yet, the Sox go to Cali. with a series tie. If the Sox can go out there and beat the Angels straight up with some timely offense and this great starting pitching, no one will look at this as the turning point of the series. The Sox control their own destiny in regards to this call and what the rest of the series will hold.

 

I also want to add if Paul tagged Pierzynski on the ass after the pitch--like he should have and like he was taught since little league--this would never have happened.

 

AJ gets out there and makes the difference with the decision to run down the basepath. Hats off to AJ as well.

[Texsox]

I didn't even want to come on Soxtalk after last night's "win."  But, you nailed it.

 

I'm a patched umpire as well and as soon as the home plate umpire punched him "out" with the fist, the play should have been over.  He needed to yell at Pierzynski to stop running down the line and call him back. 

 

Bad call.

 

Yet, the Sox go to Cali. with a series tie.  If the Sox can go out there and beat the Angels straight up with some timely offense and this great starting pitching, no one will look at this as the turning point of the series.  The Sox control their own destiny in regards to this call and what the rest of the series will hold.

 

I also want to add if Paul tagged Pierzynski on the ass after the pitch--like he should have and like he was taught since little league--this would never have happened.

 

AJ gets out there and makes the difference with the decision to run down the basepath.  Hats off to AJ as well.

 

Just wondering, did you read through the thread before posting?

[AddisonStSox]

Just wondering, did you read through the thread before posting?

 

Not as such, No.

 

What'd I get myself in to?

[Iwritecode]

To add a thought to the "Josh Paul Couldn't See the Call" theory. In defense to an Illinois guy, he could see his teammate's reactions. If there had not been the fist pump call, he may have tossed to first, etc. He saw his first baseman heading to the dugout and reacted along the same lines.

 

Paul was almost on the top step of the dugout and Erstad was still standing next to first base. I don't think he was going by his teammates reactions...