Official College Basketball Thread

[whitesoxfan101]

ESPN is calling, they would love you to replace I got stung by a bumble in my mouth Mike Patrick.

 

Not quite sure what that means, but ok. If you think KU is any better than I am saying, I question your sanity.

[Heads22]

Heh, I love how noontime becomes Big 12 talk....

[Jimbo's Drinker]

Not quite sure what that means, but ok.  If you think KU is any better than I am saying, I question your sanity.

 

Question away

[IlliniKrush]

Remember when Kansas lost to Bucknell last year? That was sweet.

 

As long as Self is there, i'm not too worried about Kansas doing anything in the tournament. You'll have to be real lucky to win 2 games.

[Jimbo's Drinker]

Remember when Kansas lost to Bucknell last year? That was sweet.

 

As long as Self is there, i'm not too worried about Kansas doing anything in the tournament. You'll have to be real lucky to win 2 games.

 

 

Dumb

[ZoomSlowik]

Remember when Kansas lost to Bucknell last year? That was sweet.

 

As long as Self is there, i'm not too worried about Kansas doing anything in the tournament. You'll have to be real lucky to win 2 games.

 

Eventually he'll get enough talent in the program that they'll make at least an Elite 8 trip. He put together one group that did it at Illinois, and brought in basically every player of note on last year's Final Four team. Granted they might not have gone 30-1 and made it to the title game without him, but that's still a fairly easy Elite 8 trip even with the weaker coaching.

 

I don't think he can do it next year because they'll still be pretty young, but the year after that they could be a major threat unless they get destroyed by the pros (more than just Rush leaving).

[Palehosefan]

Nice synopsis of Mike Patrick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Patrick

[whitesoxfan101]

I think Patrick took part in Duke's traditional postgame shower celebration with the rat, the landlord, j j, and wojo after last nights game. What a BRUTAL last 5 minutes that broadcast was.

 

Oh, and Bail has taken 3 different teams to the elite 8, so he's proven he can go that far. However, late coaching mistakes in all 3 of those games kept his team out of the Final Four, which I find to be no coincidence.

[IlliniKrush]

Dumb

Fact

[watchtower41]

Allright another KU fan, i love the pic of JUJU in your avatar.  Don't mind the other posters, they are KU haters, mostly due to Self fleeing their school.  I would be the same way, and am with roy boy.

 

I am more excited about the OU game then I am the super bowl.  A win and we are a ranked team baby.

 

 

Yeah I attended KU '96-'98, lived down the hall from Pierce, LaFrentz, Vaughn and co. Its been a rough couple years for the crimson and the blue, but this current outfit has a lot of talent and unlimited potenital. They do need to get abig win under their belt, whipping UK is far far from enough..that being said though, this is a completely different team than the one that got ousted in the Maui tournament and lost to St. Joe's at MSG. IF they finish 2nd in the Big XII, they could work themselves up to as high as a 5 seed I believe, though thats a huge IF, theyre still frosh and theyre gonna be inconsistent. I expected much more out of Giles this year, and where Darnell has been a pleasant surprise, it would have been nice to have a nice twin tower threat down low. Wright, Robinson, and Chalmers are the future and watching on how quickly they are developing, the jayhawk faithful can sleep again with optimism.

 

 

As for Illini hatred against Self, I can understand that, as I have the same feelings for Benedict Roy, that bastage. Only difference was Self never said on national television that we would remain the Illinois coach forEVER. I like that Illinois fans are getting cocky with their program, and I will admit, the program is close to becoming "elite", but lets stop and think what got the team here. Weber is a great coach, no question about it, but also safe to say his recruiting has not got off to a very solid start. Is Illinois any better than an NIT team if Dee doesnt gt hurt at the pre-draft camp?? Has Augustine got any better or learned anything from last years championship game?? I have all the respect in the world for Illinois and I hope they continue to build a reputation that makes the team a perinnial elite powerhouse, I just don't get it that their fans take it for granted that this is a foregone conclusion. Kentucky, UCLA, Duke, Kansas didnt become the programs they are overnight.

[thedoctor]

As for Illini hatred against Self, I can understand that, as I have the same feelings for Benedict Roy, that bastage.  Only difference was Self never said on national television that we would remain the Illinois coach forEVER.  I like that Illinois fans are getting cocky with their program, and I will admit, the program is close to becoming "elite", but lets stop and think what got the team here.  Weber is a great coach, no question about it, but also safe to say his recruiting has not got off to a very solid start.  Is Illinois any better than an NIT team if Dee doesnt gt hurt at the pre-draft camp?? Has Augustine got any better or learned anything from last years championship game??  I have all the respect in the world for Illinois and I hope they continue to build a reputation that makes the team a perinnial elite powerhouse, I just don't get it that their fans take it for granted that this is a foregone conclusion.  Kentucky, UCLA, Duke, Kansas didnt become the programs they are overnight.

 

i'm a huge illinois fan and would be the first to say our program is not among the elite yet. you need nc's to accomplish that, and we haven't had one (not counting the pre-ncaa tournament one we had). that said, i feel the program is on the right track and you can not quibble with the success weber has had there. whether he recruited those kids or not, he has been their coach and he has coached them as well as you possibly can.

 

my happiness with weber is also why i have no problems with self. as a recruiter, he did a fantastic job at illinois, so he deserves credit for bringing in such a great group of players. he gets some credit for the past two years no doubt. however, i also think he has many drawbacks as a coach, and i do not feel the team would do what it's done the past two years under his leadership.

 

whether or not weber is able to bring in top talent is the biggest question. rankings-wise he wasn't off to a great start, but i like what i've seen out of some of his recruits. plus, it does appear that some future classes are shaping up well. weber takes criticism for recruiting (and rightly so, that comes with the job), but all of this is not his fault. illinois has run through four coaches in the past 15 years and that type of instability does not help the long-term success of you program.

 

anyway, just wanted to be clear where i stand. welcome aboard and i look forward to reading your hoops insights.

 

[IlliniKrush]

As for Illini hatred against Self, I can understand that, as I have the same feelings for Benedict Roy, that bastage.  Only difference was Self never said on national television that we would remain the Illinois coach forEVER.  I like that Illinois fans are getting cocky with their program, and I will admit, the program is close to becoming "elite", but lets stop and think what got the team here.  Weber is a great coach, no question about it, but also safe to say his recruiting has not got off to a very solid start.  Is Illinois any better than an NIT team if Dee doesnt gt hurt at the pre-draft camp?? Has Augustine got any better or learned anything from last years championship game??  I have all the respect in the world for Illinois and I hope they continue to build a reputation that makes the team a perinnial elite powerhouse, I just don't get it that their fans take it for granted that this is a foregone conclusion.  Kentucky, UCLA, Duke, Kansas didnt become the programs they are overnight.

Just like thedoctor, i realize we are not an elite program in college basketball right now. We are in the group below the elite. Maybe in 10 years or so we can say we are one of the elite programs in the nation, who knows. I also don't know where you see that we are getting "cocky" with our program. Must of us have never guaranteed anything from this team, and we are not overconfident about any Big Ten game against one of the top 7. No one's said this team is going to another Final Four. We are grateful for what we have, especially Bruce.

 

Granted, Self brought some talent in here, but he was not a good tournament coach (or regular season coach for that matter) while here (and he's continued that at Kansas). With Self at the helm, i don't believe this team would have reached the NC last year, or be 20-2 right now. You have to give Weber some time to recruit, as he hasn't established himself as a "name" coach yet in college basketball. Hopefully we get to a point where the program sells itself.

 

Also, i know Dee got hurt, but there was still a decent chance of him coming back even without the injury. But if he wasn't here i still think we'd be a pretty formidable team, but not a contender for the Big Ten title at all. Weber can flat-out coach, period. Once he becomes a name coach and wins more accolades and this team wins more big ten titles and has success in the tournament, i think getting recruits will be easier. I think we are already seeing the change - the 2007 class is looking mighty fine.

[Soxbadger]

I need some KU kool aid.

 

1. Even with out Dee Brown, Illinois was still going to the NCAA tournament. They would be a much lower seed, but still in the tournament none the less.

 

2. Had Self coached the Illinois team not Weber last year, they do not make the final 2, they do not make the final 4, and they do not make the elite 8. Im sorry, but Weber is what makes Illinois the team it is, not the talent.

 

3. KU is a very very good football program. (Im sorry but that statement will make me laugh for a long time.)

 

In the end, if I had to chose to put my money on Illinois or KU being the better program over the next 10 years, I would go with Illinois. KU imo seems to be on the decline, and eventually will lose its "national program" status. Soon people are going to say "What have you done for me lately" and the answer will be not much.

[ZoomSlowik]

Just like thedoctor, i realize we are not an elite program in college basketball right now. We are in the group below the elite. Maybe in 10 years or so we can say we are one of the elite programs in the nation, who knows.  I also don't know where you see that we are getting "cocky" with our program.  Must of us have never guaranteed anything from this team, and we are not overconfident about any Big Ten game against one of the top 7. No one's said this team is going to another Final Four. We are grateful for what we have, especially Bruce.

 

I'm not so sure that at least some Illini fans aren't getting a little cocky. The guys on this board have all been pretty sane and intelligent, but there are definitely others that aren't like that.

 

I spent four years down there, and my attitude towards the Illini was pretty neutral when I got on campus. After four years of hearing how great the Illini are, I've started rooting against them, and it wasn't just the drunken frat boys that ticked me off. Every time I tried to tell anyone that the team wasn't as good as they thought, people jumped on me, no matter how calm, reasonable, and logical I was in my argument. No one wanted to hear that the Elite 8 team wasn't going to win in all because they weren't even the best team in their bracket, or that the next year's team was highly suspect and might lose to ND in the second round, or that last year's team would eventually have some problems against better teams because of their dependence on the 3 and the relative lack of an inside prescence.

 

I suppose that probably happens at every school, it amazed me that I couldn't seem to find too many reasonable fans. If they make the Final Four again this year, I really think that a whole lot of Illini fans are going to take a pretty ridiculous attitude toward the team, and those people will probably overreact if they have an 18-20 win season next year like it appears that they will.

[ZoomSlowik]

2. Had Self coached the Illinois team not Weber last year, they do not make the final 2, they do not make the final 4, and they do not make the elite 8. Im sorry, but Weber is what makes Illinois the team it is, not the talent.

 

In the end, if I had to chose to put my money on Illinois or KU being the better program over the next 10 years, I would go with Illinois. KU imo seems to be on the decline, and eventually will lose its "national program" status. Soon people are going to say "What have you done for me lately" and the answer will be not much.

 

I seriously disagree with the first part of that statement. Self might not be the greatest coach out there, but he is still fairly competent. I think they probably would have lost 2 or 3 more games during the season, and they certainly wouldn't have made it to the title game. But they would have at least made it to the Elite 8 and probably still would have been a #1 seed. With the kind of talent they had on that team, who was he going to lose to in that run before Arizona? They got a good draw and two teams that Illinois wouldn't have matched up against as well as UW-Milwaukee (both Alabama and BC had the kind of size that might have given Illinois trouble) got upset. Even if the draw changed slightly, there weren't really any dangerous 8-9 seeds, and the only real 4-5 game threats were MSU, who they'd beaten and probably wouldn't have been in the same bracket, and Villanova, who would have been a fairly good matchup for Illinois once Sumpter went out. Weber is good, but it's not like we're talking about the difference between Coach K and Bill Guthridge.

 

I will agree with you on the later part though. It seems like Weber is starting to make a bigger impact in recruiting, which is bad news for the rest of the conference. I think he's still one impact recruit away from totally removing the "can't recruit" label though.

[Soxbadger]

I disagree.

 

I watched the KU Bucknell game as Wisconsin would play them if the Badgers won, and Self just got manhandled as a coach. I also watched the Illini under Self against Wisconsin, and Wisconsin generally out coached and outplayed him.

 

Then when Weber took over it all changed, instead of being a team that played self-centered (haha edit no pun intended) basketball, they became a team who played defense.

 

That is why Illinois would still make the NCAA tournament, because they have a different mindsight. When you look at the Wisconsin program the last few years, its not filled with dynamite recruits, or all everything players, its filled with team players. People who understand that in a system, 5 average players can be world beaters.

 

I guess I just can not say enough about how good of a coach Weber is. He is the first coach I have seen take it to Bo Ryan.

 

Its not all about recruiting, its only about recruiting when it gets down to those final 8 teams and eventually a team like UNC just can out talent a team like Wisconsin.

 

As for last year, I do not think the Illini are a #1 seed with Self. I just do not think he is capable of consistently beating well coached teams.

Edited February 2, 2006 by Soxbadger

[Jimbo's Drinker]

I disagree.

 

I watched the KU Bucknell game as Wisconsin would play them if the Badgers won, and Self just got manhandled as a coach. I also watched the Illini under Self against Wisconsin, and Wisconsin generally out coached and outplayed him.

 

Then when Weber took over it all changed, instead of being a team that played self-centered (haha edit no pun intended) basketball, they became a team who played defense.

 

 

 

 

That is why Illinois would still make the NCAA tournament, because they have a different mindsight. When you look at the Wisconsin program the last few years, its not filled with dynamite recruits, or all everything players, its filled with team players. People who understand that in a system, 5 average players can be world beaters.

 

I guess I just can not say enough about how good of a coach Weber is. He is the first coach I have seen take it to Bo Ryan.

 

 

Its not all about recruiting, its only about recruiting when it gets down to those final 8 teams and eventually a team like UNC just can out talent a team like Wisconsin.

 

As for last year, I do not think the Illini are a #1 seed with Self. I just do not think he is capable of consistently beating well coached teams.

 

 

You really do not understand this do you. KU was in the final four 2 of the last 4 years. They ran a run and gun system that feature s the likes of Drew Gooden, Kirk Hinrich, Drew Gooden, Aaron Miles, Keith Langford, Nick Collison. They are a fast paced team that focused on pressure defense creating fast breaks for their speedy team. Roy Williams recruited players who best fit this run and gun system. Roy leaves for NC, and Self brings in a whole new system. Self runs the High-LO offense, which features post passing and a slow down half court game. This system only works when you have players who can hit penetrate, pass out and hit the open 3 or work it into the post. The players that were left for Self were not ready for this system. Langford, Miles, Lee and Giddens could not shoot from the outside. Also, they did not have any post prescence, and Simien was way too undersized to run the high lo. I am not even going to discuss Moody. It took KU fans a long time to realize this, because we were spoiled for so long with the run and gun. Weber runs a very intelligent motion offense which needs 3 pointers and fast paced passing. Dee Brown, Deron Williams, Head and Augustine were perfect players in the system, and the recovery time to the new system was fast.

 

I do not believe that Coach Self had a chance to install his recruits into his "system" at Illinois, he left too early. Just this season, he has brought back a run and gun system, which emphasizes passing from your BIGS. Also, the need for amazing perimeter defense and open shooting. This team is gelling the right way now, it just took a while to get the system and rotation in check. Russell Robinson and Mario Chalmers are probably the most dangerous young backcourt in th nation. Julian Wright is the quintessential 4 in this system. He is a tremendous passer and is much faster than his defenders. also, Kaun and Jackson are really getting good position, due to rush and Chalmers's improved driving ability.

 

 

Ten years from now, Kansas will succeed more than Illinois. We have not seen that much talent from WEber's recruits, and he is not known as a wonderful recruiter. Self is the best recrutier in the nation, and he can continue to install his system, he can continue to pick fro mthe nation's best.

 

06- Sherron Collins #2 point guard, Darrel Arthur or Davon Jefferson, both topo 10 Small Forwards

07- Cole Aldrich #1 Center and Travis Relaford #2 SF/SG

 

I think both coaches will do very well with their respected school, it bothers me when a "fan" does not understand the substance of the various situation.

Edited February 2, 2006 by Jimbo's Drinker

[ZoomSlowik]

I definitely agree with Jimbo that Williams didn't leave Kansas with a whole lot of talent when he left for UNC. All you need to do is look at their upperclassmen, and Simien was the only really good senior that was still there last year. Miles was decent, but they needed him to be more of a scorer, which wasn't his strong suit. Giddens had a world of talent, but he got fascinated with the 3 instead of taking it to the whole every possession like he should. The other 2 guards' name escapes me, but he was suffering from injuries most of the year. Padgett would have been a great fit if he stayed, but it just didn't work out. Give him a little time, Self is getting there. If he can get to the Elite 8 with Tulsa, he can do it at Kansas.

 

Obviously we have different opinions on Self vs Weber. I'll agree that Weber is a better game coach, but he's not THAT much better. Self got a 4 or a 5 seed with basically Brian Cook and the Final Four group as freshmen, so he probably would have gotten at least a 3 seed. He recruited those guys to play in his system, so I really don't think Weber's work got them more than about 5 more wins, tops. Augustine would have played a much bigger role for Self, which would have helped them not rely on the 3 so much. Plus Dee was definitely more effective in his freshmen year than as a soph or this year, and Powell would probably be a better fit for Self too. Maybe Deron and Head don't play as well as the did in the motion, but they'd still be a very solid team. Unless they get absolutely screwed on the draw after they slip a bit they're still a legit Final Four threat. He had a Final Four caliber team in 2001, they just ran into a better Arizona team. He's such a good recruiter that he can overcome a lot of his deficiencies as a coach. I don't see why he can't do something similar to what Roy did before bolting to UNC. His teams often under-achieved, but he was still very successful at Kansas.

[Palehosefan]

but it's not like we're talking about the difference between Coach K and Bill Guthridge

 

Hey now, Guthridge took UNC to Final 4's in 2 of his 3 years.

[ZoomSlowik]

Hey now, Guthridge took UNC to Final 4's in 2 of his 3 years.

 

Come on, that guy couldn't coach, at least not in the head coaching capacity. The first team that made the Final Four was absolutely loaded. I could have coached Vince Carter and Antwan Jamison to the Final Four. The other time he had a another absolutely loaded team, and they finished the regular season like 19-12. They just barely got into the tournament, and then their talent finally took over. It also helped that Stanford was the #1 seed in their bracket. Cota and Haywood were studs, and Joseph Forte was a rising star.

 

Anyways I digress. Maybe that was a bad example, that was just the first name that came to mind. Maybe Matt Dougherty is a better one.

[Palehosefan]

Gut is actually a pretty decent comparison for the Weber worries. Gut could coach very well, he just couldn't recruit. He's the reason the program went through the 8-20 debacle and the slide from the elite for a few years. He left the program with guys like Capel, Lang, Bersticker, Boone, Morrison etc.

 

Gut coaches his first team to 33-4, and actually won the coach of the year award. He ended up with a .741 win percentage. His second final four team was a brilliant job of coaching. He had Ed Cota who was a very solid leader, Forte, who was one of the best players in the nation, and Haywood who could defend the paint. But he had absolutely no depth, playing a 6 man rotation. UNC was headed to the championship before Ed Cota got his 4th foul with about 6 minutes to play against Florida, and they made a comeback and won the game because he couldn't play any defense.

 

Sure UNC lost both occasions, but thats nothing new, UNC has lost more final 4 games than any other college in the nation. With 5 titles in 17 final four appearances.

[ZoomSlowik]

Gut is actually a pretty decent comparison for the Weber worries. Gut could coach very well, he just couldn't recruit. He's the reason the program went through the 8-20 debacle and the slide from the elite for a few years. He left the program with guys like Capel, Lang, Bersticker, Boone, Morrison etc.

 

Gut coaches his first team to 33-4, and actually won the coach of the year award. He ended up with a .741 win percentage. His second final four team was a brilliant job of coaching. He had Ed Cota who was a very solid leader, Forte, who was one of the best players in the nation, and Haywood who could defend the paint. But he had absolutely no depth, playing a 6 man rotation. UNC was headed to the championship before Ed Cota got his 4th foul with about 6 minutes to play against Florida, and they made a comeback and won the game because he couldn't play any defense.

 

Sure UNC lost both occasions, but thats nothing new, UNC has lost more final 4 games than any other college in the nation. With 5 titles in 17 final four appearances.

 

I still don't think he was the greatest in game coach. Life's a little easier with that type of talent level. He was a top-notch assistant, but he didn't seem to fit as a head coach. That second team might not have had much depth, but who cares when you have that type of talent? The 6 guys they played were really good, as their tourney run proved. I'm still trying to figure out how they lost that many games in the regular season with a legit POY candidate, an imposing big man, and an elite scorer. Shamgod and Okalaja (probably spelled wrong) weren't exactly scrubs either.

 

To be fair, those recruits were rated pretty high. Capel was a McD's All American, and IIRC Boone, Morrison, and Lang were all top 50. Obviously they weren't as good as people thought though.

 

Again, apparently I should have gone a different route with my example.

[watchtower41]

Gut is actually a pretty decent comparison for the Weber worries. Gut could coach very well, he just couldn't recruit. He's the reason the program went through the 8-20 debacle and the slide from the elite for a few years. He left the program with guys like Capel, Lang, Bersticker, Boone, Morrison etc.

 

 

 

Which makes Matt Doherty the best coach UNC has had in the last decade.

[Jimbo's Drinker]

Which makes Matt Doherty the best coach UNC has had in the last decade.

 

 

i like this guy, watchtower rocks.

[Palehosefan]

Which makes Matt Doherty the best coach UNC has had in the last decade.

 

Ok.