JON FOCKING GARLAND

[BFirebird]

So should KW write a book (Billy Beane style) for:

 

Raping Ed lynch to give up Garland

 

Raping Billy Beane to give up Cotts

 

Raping Colorado management to give up Uribe

 

Raping Mariners GM to give up Garcia

 

Raping Cashman to give up Contreras

 

----------------------------------------

 

You know, KW might actually make it to the series with this team, and Beane has never even got there.

 

 

Shoot....Beane has not won a playoff series yet!!! Screw Moneyball...we have Ozzieball!!!!!

 

And Mark and Jon complete domination. Looking good.

[ScottyDo]

So should KW write a book (Billy Beane style) for:

 

Raping Ed lynch to give up Garland

 

Raping Billy Beane to give up Cotts

 

Raping Colorado management to give up Uribe

 

Raping Mariners GM to give up Garcia

 

Raping Cashman to give up Contreras

 

----------------------------------------

 

You know, KW might actually make it to the series with this team, and Beane has never even got there.

 

forgot about Jenks off waivers

 

Jon Garland is the studliest stud since Mark Buehrle!

 

[Soxfest]

I have been as negative about JG as anyone on this board, I have to say in his most important start of his career he was simply awesome tonight congrats JG

[juddling]

Jon Garland....this one's for you

 

[bjm676]

 

GARLAND

 

Copying your buddy, Buehrle I see.

 

The last time two pitchers to throw back-to-back complete games in LCS games was back in 1997. Livan Hernandez and Kevin Brown for the Marlins vs. the Giants. I think we all know the outcome of that team......

[Whitewashed in '05]

Mark-Jon-Freddy-Mac. Wild Card-Count

This staff is going to be scary for a long time.

As long as they are healthy yes.

[greg775]

My gawd ... what a studly performance!! Epic performance!!

Nine innings?? In his home state?? After that kind of layoff?

Way to go, Jon.

 

Never ever will anybody ever again mention Judy Garland in your presence unless

you are with friends watching the Wizard of Oz.

Helluva season; helluva game tonight! Keep it up Freddie!!!

[FlaSoxxJim]

Jon!!!

 

I'm downright giddy after tonight's game.

 

[hammerhead johnson]

Yeah, but he gave up two runs. How "studly" is that?

 

Way to go, Jon Boy.

[witesoxfan]

forgot about Jenks off waivers

 

Jon Garland is the studliest stud since Mark Buehrle!

 

   

 

Forgot about Marte, forgot about Colon

 

On the flip side...the Cotts trade was not a rape. Oakland lost Foulke after the year...but we got some guy named Billy Koch? Haunted the Sox for a year and a half before our savior, Wilson Valdez, came along and rescued us from the nightmare.

 

You also forgot one of the worst trades the White Sox have made in quite some time...Todd Ritchie nearly lost 20 games for the White Sox in 2002...he had about 15 or 16 in August when he went down with a "shoulder" injury. I don't care that Wells is mediocre, that Fogg is mediocre, that Lowe was on 3 different teams in 2002...that trade was horrible.

[R.J.]

Just wanted to add my most extreme props to Jon Boy after tonights performance. There was nary a moment when he didn't look completely in control of the game. FAN Tastic game. We needed it, and he came through in the clutch. Pressure means nothing to this pitching staff.

[Gene Honda Civic]

So should KW write a book (Billy Beane style) for:

 

Raping Ed lynch to give up Garland

 

Raping Billy Beane to give up Cotts

 

Raping Colorado management to give up Uribe

 

Raping Mariners GM to give up Garcia

 

Raping Cashman to give up Contreras

 

----------------------------------------

 

You know, KW might actually make it to the series with this team, and Beane has never even got there.

 

 

 

KW gets no credit for Garland, he was at best a bug in Shueler's ear on that trade.

[CWSGuy406]

So should KW write a book (Billy Beane style) for:

 

 

You've been listening to too much Joe Morgan.

 

Wite -- I've been really hard on Williams, but when he said pitching and defense, he meant it. I still don't like the offense, and I still don't think Scott Podsednik is all that great, but this team is a top three defensive ballclub (depending on the metric you want to use, but that's nitpicking), and a top two pitching club. Great execution of the plan.

[hammerhead johnson]

but this team is a top three defensive ballclub (depending on the metric you want to use, but that's nitpicking), and a top two pitching club.  Great execution of the plan.

 

Well, pitching is the vast majority of defense. Separating pitching and defense doesn't make sense, IMO.

 

Your pitcher is the most valuable defensive component, sort of like a goalie in hockey, a ranging big man in basketball, a gargantuan run-stuffing DT in football, etc.

 

Not to nitpick or anything.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I'd like to give myself a nice pat on the back. I was one of a select few that had total confidence in Garland coming into game 3. I guess the people that were afraid of Garland going in a possible game 7 feel a lot better now. Not that it will come to that. I don't see this series going past 6 games. Just an outstanding performance by Jon tonight.

[BFirebird]

Forgot about Marte, forgot about Colon

 

On the flip side...the Cotts trade was not a rape.  Oakland lost Foulke after the year...but we got some guy named Billy Koch?  Haunted the Sox for a year and a half before our savior, Wilson Valdez, came along and rescued us from the nightmare. 

 

You also forgot one of the worst trades the White Sox have made in quite some time...Todd Ritchie nearly lost 20 games for the White Sox in 2002...he had about 15 or 16 in August when he went down with a "shoulder" injury.  I don't care that Wells is mediocre, that Fogg is mediocre, that Lowe was on 3 different teams in 2002...that trade was horrible.

 

 

Every GM makes bad trades and signings. Colon? At the time that was a huge trade and was the right idea. Marte? Until recently had been a very effective lefty out of the pen...sure he would be scary but he had scary stuff as well. Boomer Wells was a great signing in 2001 (I believe) as well but it just didnt work out.

 

Sometimes things work...other times they do not but no one can keep KW from getting credit for teaming up with Ozzie and starting a vision for this team. This is not the end of the road either my friends....they are just getting started. I heard someone chirping I believe on a big network stating earlier this year before the playoffs that this team reminds them of the '98 Yanks.

 

If JR opens his wallet just a little bit in the offseason, which may just happen and they can sign a couple of people, namely PK, look out AL, the Chi Sox will be coming hard for years to come.

[witesoxfan]

Wite -- I've been really hard on Williams, but when he said pitching and defense, he meant it.  I still don't like the offense, and I still don't think Scott Podsednik is all that great, but this team is a top three defensive ballclub (depending on the metric you want to use, but that's nitpicking), and a top two pitching club.  Great execution of the plan.

 

I love the pitching staff and defense all around...they tend to feed off of each other. Dye is very overrated in RF, Konerko's range is limited, and Pierzynski is so-so behind the plate(but his calling game has been magnificent from day 1)...other than that, I can't think of anyone defensively that's bad. Rowand should get a gold glove this year, which is deserved, Podsednik doesn't read the ball well but has the speed to make up for it, Crede's probably the most underrated defensive player in the majors, Iguchi has been a hell of a good defensive player and seems to make up for what he lacks in range and throwing strength with good accuracy and just good baseball instincts...reminds me almost of Jose Valentin instincts wise...and Uribe is probably a future gold glove winner...perhaps even a gold glover if he is in New York/Boston/St. Louis this year. Come 07, this team could be very, very, very solid all-around defensively with Young on the verge of starting, and Anderson perhaps already starting.

 

I'd also very much agree on Podsednik, atleast in the second half of the season and in the playoffs. He has tremendous speed, but if he isn't stealing bases productively(and he's been far from that in the second half), he's not very valuable...I am a true believer in that OBP alone does not make a leadoff hitter, but that you also need some other characteristic, be it power, speed, a combo of both, or an OBP around .410-.420 to be a productive leadoff hitter. Podsednik getting on at .360, while nice, does nothing for me if he's not getting to 2B somehow without giving up an out...you are just asking for trouble by sacrificing constantly, because timely hitting is not something that can be counted upon. That whole OBP thing is something I've thought about for a while, and I truly do not believe you need a good OBP to be a productive leadoff hitter...but that's probably something for another time with a little more research behind it backing it up.

 

What KW did during the offseason was unbelievably huge...he filled as many holes as he could...basically every hole, plus a few others for depth...with about $15-20 mill. There were probably 6 large holes in the team going into the season(I think back and see C, 2B, RF, SU, SP, leadoff hitter), and he managed to fill those with roughly $14.5 mill...and those above do not include Ozuna as the utility infielder, Widger as the backup catcher, Vizcaino out of the pen, and perhaps more I'm not thinking about right now.

 

The only move I really questioned at all was giving Timo $1 mill...why give a fat cop 2 boxes of donuts when he only needs 1?

[Jordan4life_2007]

I love the pitching staff and defense all around...they tend to feed off of each other.  Dye is very overrated in RF, Konerko's range is limited, and Pierzynski is so-so behind the plate(but his calling game has been magnificent from day 1)...other than that, I can't think of anyone defensively that's bad.  Rowand should get a gold glove this year, which is deserved, Podsednik doesn't read the ball well but has the speed to make up for it, Crede's probably the most underrated defensive player in the majors, Iguchi has been a hell of a good defensive player and seems to make up for what he lacks in range and throwing strength with good accuracy and just good baseball instincts...reminds me almost of Jose Valentin instincts wise...and Uribe is probably a future gold glove winner...perhaps even a gold glover if he is in New York/Boston/St. Louis this year.  Come 07, this team could be very, very, very solid all-around defensively with Young on the verge of starting, and Anderson perhaps already starting.

 

I'd also very much agree on Podsednik, atleast in the second half of the season and in the playoffs.  He has tremendous speed, but if he isn't stealing bases productively(and he's been far from that in the second half), he's not very valuable...I am a true believer in that OBP alone does not make a leadoff hitter, but that you also need some other characteristic, be it power, speed, a combo of both, or  an OBP around .410-.420 to be a productive leadoff hitter.  Podsednik getting on at .360, while nice, does nothing for me if he's not getting to 2B somehow without giving up an out...you are just asking for trouble by sacrificing constantly, because timely hitting is not something that can be counted upon.  That whole OBP thing is something I've thought about for a while, and I truly do not believe you need a good OBP to be a productive leadoff hitter...but that's probably something for another time with a little more research behind it backing it up.

 

What KW did during the offseason was unbelievably huge...he filled as many holes as he could...basically every hole, plus a few others for depth...with about $15-20 mill.  There were probably 6 large holes in the team going into the season(I think back and see C, 2B, RF, SU, SP, leadoff hitter), and he managed to fill those with roughly $14.5 mill...and those above do not include Ozuna as the utility infielder, Widger as the backup catcher, Vizcaino out of the pen, and perhaps more I'm not thinking about right now.

 

The only move I really questioned at all was giving Timo $1 mill...why give a fat cop 2 boxes of donuts when he only needs 1?

 

 

Wite, I agree with 95% of everything you just said. However, I just wanted to point out that Konerko has been very good defensively this season. I agree that his range isn't that great, but he's been excellent in the field.

[witesoxfan]

Wite,  I agree with 95% of everything you just said.  However,  I just wanted to point out that Konerko has been very good defensively this season.  I agree that his range isn't that great,  but he's been excellent in the field.

 

He has a great glove...I have never doubted that. I love his glove defensively.

 

However, like I just said to qwerty...the best defense a 1Bman can put up for you is about .285 with 40 homers and a 100 steaks, to go along with about a .910 OPS, because I mean really, it's not that hard to catch the ball. All in all...there are probably 4 1Bman off the top of my head I'd take over Konerko right now - Helton, Pujols, Lee, and Ortiz - and those last two are even questionable. I was one of Konerko's biggest critics, and felt we needed to replace him...I've very much since changed that stance.

[hammerhead johnson]

I love the pitching staff and defense all around...they tend to feed off of each other. 

 

Wite, wouldn't you agree that the pitcher has the most control by far over an opposing team's offense, and therefore, is the primary component of defense?

 

I'm just trying to figure out why people don't regard them as one and the same.

 

If you could break it down in terms of "defensive impact" ratio, I'd favor Contreras 75 to 25 in the second half. Spectacular plays are made behind him, but the offense is clearly his b**** because of what he himself brings to the table. Right now, he is our Patrick Roy, our Ben Wallace, our Ray Lewis, etc.

Edited October 15, 2005 by hammerhead johnson

[witesoxfan]

Wite, wouldn't you agree that the pitcher has the most control by far over an opposing team's offense, and therefore, is the primary component of defense?

 

I'm just trying to figure out why people don't regard them as one and the same.

 

If you could break it down in terms of "defensive impact" ratio, I'd favor Contreras 75 to 25 in the second half.  Spectacular plays are made behind him, but the offense is clearly his b**** because of what he himself brings to the table.  Right now, he is our Patrick Roy, our Ben Wallace, our Ray Lewis, etc.

 

I'd agree 100%

 

Without all the groundballs our pitching staff produced, Uribe does not look like a gold glover, Iguchi does not look awesome defensively, and Crede is still viewed as mediocre. Kudos goes to KW a little bit for that too, bringing in a pretty solid groundball pitching staff. Kudos also goes to probably Don Cooper for drilling into our pitcher's heads the necessity of control. You can pretty much look across the entire pitching staff, and with the exception of Marte, about everyone has exhibited better control of their stuff this year all around.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Wite, wouldn't you agree that the pitcher has the most control by far over an opposing team's offense, and therefore, is the primary component of defense?

 

I'm just trying to figure out why people don't regard them as one and the same.

 

If you could break it down in terms of "defensive impact" ratio, I'd favor Contreras 75 to 25 in the second half.  Spectacular plays are made behind him, but the offense is clearly his b**** because of what he himself brings to the table.  Right now, he is our Patrick Roy, our Ben Wallace, our Ray Lewis, etc.

Your "defence impact ratio" got me thinking...

 

So I compared each teams DER [(Defensive Efficiency ratio) which is simply the % of Balls in play converted into outs] to their ERA

 

I got a correlation of -.839 -- As the DER comes down (less Balls in play converted into outs) the ERA goes up. Obviously, this is to be expected, but .839 is not all that strong.

 

Especially when you consider that Team OBP correlates to Runs scored at about .92 and Team OPS correlates to runs scored at about .95 *** Those correlations are from memory, so they may not be 100% accurate, but they're close.

[SoxFanForever]

Your "defence impact ratio" got me thinking...

 

So I compared each teams DER [(Defensive Efficiency ratio) which is simply the % of Balls in play converted into outs] to their ERA

 

I got a correlation of -.839 -- As the DER comes down (less Balls in play converted into outs) the ERA goes up. Obviously, this is to be expected, but .839 is not all that strong.

 

Especially when you consider that Team OBP correlates to Runs scored at about .92 and Team OPS correlates to runs scored at about .95 *** Those correlations are from memory, so they may not be 100% accurate, but they're close.

[YASNY]

Wite, wouldn't you agree that the pitcher has the most control by far over an opposing team's offense, and therefore, is the primary component of defense?

 

I'm just trying to figure out why people don't regard them as one and the same.

 

If you could break it down in terms of "defensive impact" ratio, I'd favor Contreras 75 to 25 in the second half.  Spectacular plays are made behind him, but the offense is clearly his b**** because of what he himself brings to the table.  Right now, he is our Patrick Roy, our Ben Wallace, our Ray Lewis, etc.

 

People don't always regard them one and the same because they can be separated and looked at individually. For example, once a pitcher releases the pitch, he is instantly transformed into an "infielder" and is part of the defense. That's why when a pitcher throws a comebacker down the RF line that he is not charged with an earned run. He, as a person, may have "earned" it, but as a pitcher that's not the case.

[hammerhead johnson]

People don't always regard them one and the same because they can be separated and looked at individually.  For example, once a pitcher releases the pitch, he is instantly transformed into an "infielder" and is part of the defense.

 

His mere presence on the mound to begin with suggests that he's a defender, though. Really, it sounds simple, but what is the common theme amongst the major sports? It's offense vs. defense, period. If a pitcher is anything, he is a defender, and easily the most important one at that.

 

The ultimate defensive game, to me, is a perfect game, followed closely by a no-hitter. Yes, spectacular plays will be made by position players, but the pitcher trumps all in a defensive sense. Whether it is inducing weak grounders and tailor-made double play balls, jamming guys and inducing weak pop-outs, striking guys out, etc, pitching rules all.