Could the Sox have an "Angels effect" on Chicago?

[Greg Hibbard]

I was just thinking last night about how the Angels really overshadow the Dodgers in the LA area these days because of the Angels recent success and the Dodgers piss-poor general managing and underacheving on the field.

 

Do you get the sense that the White Sox could enjoy a similar type of swing in terms of popularity? It seems as though the Angels were relatively the lesser team in the LA area for years and years, and all of a sudden they are the more popular franchise for the past few seasons with more of a rabid fanbase.

 

Could Chicago experience a similar effect?

[Balta1701]

Could Chicago experience a similar effect?

If JR spends the money to keep this team together, and the marketing deparment launches itself at that city...yeah, it could have a similar effect.

 

The Angels sell out tons of games, because they're putting a winner on the field every year and they won a W.S. 3 years ago.

 

The formula isn't hard to follow.

[YASNY]

I was just thinking last night about how the Angels really overshadow the Dodgers in the LA area these days because of the Angels recent success and the Dodgers piss-poor general managing and underacheving on the field.

 

Do you get the sense that the White Sox could enjoy a similar type of swing in terms of popularity? It seems as though the Angels were relatively the lesser team in the LA area for years and years, and all of a sudden they are the more popular franchise for the past few seasons with more of a rabid fanbase.

 

Could Chicago experience a similar effect?

 

The Sox have to take advantage of this situation while opportunity knocks. They've got to resign Konerko and add another marquis player in the off season.

[bschmaranz]

Key here is to put a consistent winner on the field, something that fans in Chicago haven't seen really.

[thedoctor]

the opportunity certainly is there. because of what just happened, a whole generation of young fans in the area are going to have their interest piqued in the white sox. if the sox build on this through continued strong play and a solid marketing effort, i think you could sway a whole generation of kids to the sox.

 

and once you go black, you never go back.

[LVSoxFan]

Forget it. And I'll tell you why.

 

We could win three World Series back-to-back and this will still be, and always will be, a Cubs town (I mean within the city limits). I'm sure there've been many threads here about why the Cubs outdraw the Sox every year; no need to rehash that. Of all the theories I've heard, the most sensible one to me was that we both have the same number of hardcore fans, but the amount of "casual" Cub fans absolutely dwarfs the Sox.

 

While I think the Sox winning consistently would definitely boost the attendance somewhat, they are still the Sox and that is not Wrigley Field. The Cubs "experience" is a Chicago legend--the actual game is secondary. With the Sox, we've got the game but unless they rebuild the Cell on Lake Michigan's shores, the "experience" isn't the same. We go to games to watch baseball. Wrigley and the Cubs have made a goldmine off people who go just to... go.

 

But let me tell you a little something about how, even as the Sox-crazy local media has been giving us our due finally, there's a reality here. I live on the North side--between Belmont and Diversey on the lake. All weekend I went to my local to watch the games, because there's a handful of Sox fans that are regulars there. Friday and Saturday night there was a pretty good turnout.

 

Last night, to my amazement, there was maybe 1/2 the people or less. Here we are on the brink of the WORLD SERIES going for the clinch, and barely anybody's out. Granted it was a school night, but the difference between that and the '03 Cubs playoffs was like night and day. During that, every single place up and down Broadway by me was packed with people watching the game. Each and every game. In and around Wrigley those weeks, it was like Mardi Gras. There were news helicopters overhead for almost two weeks it seemed. Granted I'm in the heart of Cubland, but you'd think there were at least some casual fans or bandwagon jumpers out and about!

 

So the Sox win and we go nuts--the champagne flows, we sing songs and high-five each other. After a while, it's time to take a stroll down Broadway.

 

There was nobody. And I mean nobody. No firecrackers, car honking, people screaming--nada. It was like any other Sunday night at 11PM.

 

This morning I ran into an old boss who lives right off Lincoln Ave. in the heart of Lincoln Park--so a bit removed from Wrigleyville. He's by Lincoln & Belden, where there's a stretch of bars usually packed with sports fans, including Barleycorn's and Kelsey's. FYI Barleycorn's was a huge hangout for people watching the Bulls back in the '90s.

 

He said after they won he went out on his roof to listen to the pandemonium and... nothing. No fireworks, screaming, nada. He said on a regular Saturday night there's more noise than there was last night. I was shocked that even there it was a ghost town.

 

And so it was on the North side: a huge, gaping void. No street celebrations, no Sox flags flying, barely any "GO SOX" materials to be seen. Had it been the Cubs, I guarantee you that party would STILL be going. By me, downtown, everywhere except the South side.

 

Point being: last night cemented more than ever for me the reality that we are basically like a team in another city--the other city being the Southside. Sure people in Bridgeport and by Midway were all crazy (and by the Cell, LOL), but it just reinforces the idea that the Sox are very much a Southside allegiance, and have nowhere near the city (and suburban) wide fanbase that the Cubs have. I'm guessing that during the Series starting this weekend, even a four-game sweep will be met with a collective sigh around my 'hood.

 

Sure, there's pockets of us here but again: to the average Chicagoan, they, quite simply, root for the Cubs.

 

Look on the bright side though: when the Cubs almost did it in '03, that glimmer of hope drove their ticket demand through the ceiling. Even as recently as this summer, it is difficult to get Cubs tix for ANY game, much less marquee teams playing them. They are pretty much sold out every game.

 

Do you want that at the Cell? I don't. I like our stepchild status and the fact that although they may have the celebrities, the fawning coverage, the stupid Jimmie Buffett concerts and the hearts of the majority of the city--we're better than them.

 

This takes the sting off the split with them in the Crosstown (which is ultimately a meaningless series anyway): now no Cub fan can talk any smack about us: we're in the Big Dance!

 

BTW I can also tell you that there is unbelievable bitterness among Cub fans that we've gotten this far. Even at the place last night, there was one a-hole who was rooting for the Angels. Because he's was a Cubs fan. So that, combined with Sox-hating (not that some here aren't above the opposite) means that you're not going to see a lot of casual or fence-rider fans now get behind the team for the good of Chicago or whatever. They don't consider us representative of Chicago. They feel it should be them.

 

Check out a Cubs board if you want to see how bitter they are. Jesus!

[thedoctor]

Forget it.  And I'll tell you why.

 

We could win three World Series back-to-back and this will still be, and always will be, a Cubs town (I mean within the city limits).  I'm sure there've been many threads here about why the Cubs outdraw the Sox every year; no need to rehash that.  Of all the theories I've heard, the most sensible one to me was that we both have the same number of hardcore fans, but the amount of "casual" Cub fans absolutely dwarfs the Sox.

 

While I think the Sox winning consistently would definitely boost the attendance somewhat, they are still the Sox and that is not Wrigley Field.  The Cubs "experience" is a Chicago legend--the actual game is secondary.  With the Sox, we've got the game but unless they rebuild the Cell on Lake Michigan's shores, the "experience" isn't the same.  We go to games to watch baseball.  Wrigley and the Cubs have made a goldmine off people who go just to... go.

 

But let me tell you a little something about how, even as the Sox-crazy local media  has been giving us our due finally, there's a reality here.  I live on the North side--between Belmont and Diversey on the lake.  All weekend I went to my local to watch the games, because there's a handful of Sox fans that are regulars there.  Friday and Saturday night there was a pretty good turnout.

 

Last night, to my amazement, there was maybe 1/2 the people or less.  Here we are on the brink of the WORLD SERIES going for the clinch, and barely anybody's out.  Granted it was a school night, but the difference between that and the '03 Cubs playoffs was like night and day.  During that, every single place up and down Broadway by me was packed with people watching the game.  Each and every game.  In and around Wrigley those weeks, it was like Mardi Gras.  There were news helicopters overhead for almost two weeks it seemed.  Granted I'm in the heart of Cubland, but you'd think there were at least some casual fans or bandwagon jumpers out and about!

 

So the Sox win and we go nuts--the champagne flows, we sing songs and high-five each other.  After a while, it's time to take a stroll down Broadway.

 

There was nobody.  And I mean nobody.  No firecrackers, car honking, people screaming--nada.  It was like any other Sunday night at 11PM.

 

This morning I ran into an old boss who lives right off Lincoln Ave. in the heart of Lincoln Park--so a bit removed from Wrigleyville.  He's by Lincoln & Belden, where there's a stretch of bars usually packed with sports fans, including Barleycorn's and Kelsey's.  FYI Barleycorn's was a huge hangout for people watching the Bulls back in the '90s. 

 

He said after they won he went out on his roof to listen to the pandemonium and... nothing.  No fireworks, screaming, nada.  He said on a regular Saturday night there's more noise than there was last night.  I was shocked that even there it was a ghost town.

 

And so it was on the North side: a huge, gaping void.  No street celebrations, no Sox flags flying, barely any "GO SOX" materials to be seen.  Had it been the Cubs, I guarantee you that party would STILL be going.  By me, downtown, everywhere except the South side.

 

Point being: last night cemented more than ever for me the reality that we are basically like a team in another city--the other city being the Southside.  Sure people in Bridgeport and by Midway were all crazy (and by the Cell, LOL), but it just reinforces the idea that the Sox are very much a Southside allegiance, and have nowhere near the city (and suburban) wide fanbase that the Cubs have.  I'm guessing that during the Series starting this weekend, even a four-game sweep will be met with a collective sigh around my 'hood.

 

Sure, there's pockets of us here but again: to the average Chicagoan, they, quite simply, root for the Cubs.

 

Look on the bright side though: when the Cubs almost did it in '03, that glimmer of hope drove their ticket demand through the ceiling.  Even as recently as this summer, it is difficult to get Cubs tix for ANY game, much less marquee teams playing them.  They are pretty much sold out every game.

 

Do you want that at the Cell?  I don't.  I like our stepchild status and the fact that although they may have the celebrities, the fawning coverage, the stupid Jimmie Buffett concerts and the hearts of the majority of the city--we're better than them.

 

This takes the sting off the split with them in the Crosstown (which is ultimately a meaningless series anyway): now no Cub fan can talk any smack about us: we're in the Big Dance!

 

BTW I can also tell you that there is unbelievable bitterness among Cub fans that we've gotten this far.  Even at the place last night, there was one a-hole who was rooting for the Angels.  Because he's was a Cubs fan.  So that, combined with Sox-hating (not that some here aren't above the opposite) means that you're not going to see a lot of casual or fence-rider fans now get behind the team for the good of Chicago or whatever.  They don't consider us representative of Chicago.  They feel it should be them.

 

Check out a Cubs board if you want to see how bitter they are.  Jesus!

 

i guess my only quarrel with a lot of that is that it's not correct that chicago has "always" been a cub town. it's cyclical like many other things.

[LVSoxFan]

Well true, but I'd say for the last decade at least.

[Greg Hibbard]

This was a Sox town from 1991-1994, that's for sure.

 

I'm not saying I would want an explosion. It would suck to have to worry about tickets for the game and whatnot.

[thedoctor]

This was a Sox town from 1991-1994, that's for sure.

 

I'm not saying I would want an explosion. It would suck to have to worry about tickets for the game and whatnot.

 

i'd trade that worry for increased payroll flexibility each year.

[Ishmookie]

I hope so. I have been wondering the same thing for a long time. We gotta win the World Series though! I can't believe they're in it!!!!!

[LVSoxFan]

I do have to say with quite a laugh though what's going on downtown.

 

I'm on Michigan Ave. and I'd say, going either way on Michigan, there's probably five sports clothing stores nearby. I've been in all of them. Also, there's lots of "tourist" stores that feature all Chicago stuff, from mugs to prints to tacky stuffed animals.

 

Believe me you when I say that year-round, these stores are loaded with Cubs merchandise. The few that do have a Sox jersey will usually have two at most--and a bunch of crappy Sox t-shirts. Otherwise 90% of the merchandise at these places is Cubs, Cubs, Cubs. Year 'round. The same obviously is true on the North Side, where you can buy any Cubs jersey imaginable at Sportmart but if they even have a Sox jersey I'd be surprised.

 

Lo and behold, they've all seen the light! Now everybody's selling Sox stuff! Even the crappy-ass tourist store in Chicago place not only is displaying no Cubs merchandise, but ONLY Sox playoff stuff!

 

LOL.

 

I find it amusing because I highly doubt the tourists and casual Cub fans are itching to now buy this stuff simply because we won. Or maybe there are just tons of bandwagon jumpers out there--who knows?

[Steve9347]

I find it amusing because I highly doubt the tourists and casual Cub fans are itching to now buy this stuff simply because we won.  Or maybe there are just tons of bandwagon jumpers out there--who knows?

 

from what i have experienced in the last few weeks, those "casual" cubs fan are now becoming "casual" sox fans. its f***ing annoying, but i just want a world series win.

 

last night two of my buddies who used to be cubs fan (3 months ago) called me because they were uber excited... now that's annoying.

[The Ginger Kid]

There are some great historical perspectives on the White Sox. Back in 1919 they were the most popular team in America -- in fact, the Yankees were nothing but a struggling franchise renting space at the polo grounds from the Giants. What a turn of events; a few months after the Sox "lost" to the Reds in the '19 series, Ruth was sold to the Yankees. One team went one direction, the other another. The Sox aren't cursed but winning a world series would go a long way toward finally, after all these years, overshadowing a disastrous turn of events in the history of the franchise. Keep in mind that in 1984 you could pick up season tickets to the Bulls for a song. Oh how winning can change a thing.

Edited October 17, 2005 by The Ginger Kid

[SleepyWhiteSox]

I find it amusing because I highly doubt the tourists and casual Cub fans are itching to now buy this stuff simply because we won.  Or maybe there are just tons of bandwagon jumpers out there--who knows?

 

Sox merchandise is selling extremely well.

 

And that is exactly why people are buying it...because the Sox are winning.

[Mplssoxfan]

I was discussing this earlier today with a friend of mine who happens to be a Cubs fan. He is enjoying this run by the Sox for two reasons: first, because he's a baseball fan and, well, the Sox are fun to watch. Second, he thinks it's going put a lot of pressure on the Cubs' management to get them over the hump for the very reason that they cannot stand idly by and watch the Sox take the lead in Chicago.

 

Should be an intersting off-season.

[Greg Hibbard]

The Cubs have a lot of long term problems. They shot the wad in terms of payroll in the last couple of seasons and are fairly tied down in terms of contracts right now. They have literally no flexibility. If Wood and Prior continue their "OW OW MY ARM" routine, there's no way they'll even be competitive the next few seasons.

[kevin57]

The Cubs have a lot of long term problems. They shot the wad in terms of payroll in the last couple of seasons and are fairly tied down in terms of contracts right now. They have literally no flexibility. If Wood and Prior continue their "OW OW MY ARM" routine, there's no way they'll even be competitive the next few seasons.

 

Not to turn this into a Cub thread, but the fact that they rehired every last coach from this last disastrous year is an indication that they're not feeling a whole lot of pressure yet.

[LVSoxFan]

There are some great historical perspectives on the White Sox. Back in 1919 they were the most popular team in America -- in fact, the Yankees were nothing but a struggling franchise renting space at the polo grounds from the Giants. What a turn of events; a few months after the Sox "lost" to the Reds in the '19 series, Ruth was sold to the Yankees. One team went one direction, the other another. The Sox aren't cursed but winning a world series would go a long way toward finally, after all these years, overshadowing a disastrous turn of events in the history of the franchise. Keep in mind that in 1984 you could pick up season tickets to the Bulls for a song. Oh how winning can change a thing.

 

Well yes and no. The Bulls analogy may be flawed because they're the only franchise in town for basketball.

 

Of course winning can turn around franchises like the Bulls or--can you imagine?--the Hawks. I wouldn't hold my breath on them BTW as long as Wirtz is alive.

 

Generally speaking winning changes everything but there's one team in town that can lose until the cows come home (or not come home! I'm confused!) and still sell out: the Cubs.

 

Think about it: the genius of a ploy where the Cubs' losing seasons are the appeal of the team! It's absolutely win/win. If they come close like in '03, everybody gets delusional and thinks the Curse is finally on the way out. And when they collapse (like they did in the Bartman game and in less dramatic fashion last year)--well... that's just more fodder to the mythology! What I'm saying is that the Cubs transcend baseball.

 

They are a rolling frat party. Their park is a beer garden. They're a tourist attraction. They have fans all over the country who watch them on WGN. When they lose you get to play martyr and when they win it's pandemonium.

 

Sox fans, the argument goes, are actual "baseball" fans and I think that's accurate. One of my favorite retorts to Cub fans--who will often cite attendance as to why their club is superior--is that Sox fans don't reward failure with attendance. When the Sox suck, people don't go. Hell apparently even when they're #1 in September people don't go, LOL! But we're the kind of fans who will let KW know about it, in his face, at Soxfest, if we're not happy about the team.

 

Whereas the whole North side has embraced this mythological mystique of The Curse and history and the goat and what have you. Plus, I love the Cell to death but I don't think too many tourists passing through town are thinking: I want to see Sox park! They want to see the place with the ivy, with the scenic lakefront high-rises in the background.

 

To me they're a tourist attraction/entertainment, not unlike Great America or Sea World. The fact that they even came close in '03 seemed to me like an aberration--not like some logical progression, like they have to win it sometime. I could see them going another 100 years without a pennant. But that just continues to fill the seats there, apparently!

 

Long gone are the days, if you're old enough, when back in the 70s you'd turn on a game and there'd be maybe 8,000 people there. And now that they're "redoing" the park and adding more bleacher seats... they'll be as popular as ever.

 

So no, I am saying it: I highly doubt Chicago will ever become a "Sox" town. It's just not gonna happen. At least not to the level of the Cubs. The Cubs are Chicago what the Red Sox are to Boston--the fabled, mythical, cursed team.

 

That's not a dig on us: I'm proud of the fact that I'm from Chicago and am 100% Sox and hate the Cubs. Hopefully after the WS we'll have even more elite status: world champions.

 

And before next season the Cub fans can blow up baseballs, trot goats around their crumbling park, stick pins in Bartman voodoo dolls--whatever. We know who's the better team.

[The Ginger Kid]

Long gone are the days, if you're old enough, when back in the 70s you'd turn on a game and there'd be maybe 8,000 people there.  And now that they're "redoing" the park and adding more bleacher seats... they'll be as popular as ever.

 

So no, I am saying it: I highly doubt Chicago will ever become a "Sox" town.  It's just not gonna happen.  At least not to the level of the Cubs.  The Cubs are Chicago what the Red Sox are to Boston--the fabled, mythical, cursed team.

 

That's not a dig on us: I'm proud of the fact that I'm from Chicago and am 100% Sox and hate the Cubs.  Hopefully after the WS we'll have even more elite status: world champions.

 

I guess you're right, things have changed. You see, I was a kid in the 70s, my first baseball game in 1972 was at Comiskey. The Cubs were a futile team then, like the Indians were. I didn't hate the cubs - it was like hating the kids who rode in the short yellow school bus. They were just so bad.

 

But win a world series and see what happens. The Sox will instill a sense of pride that is absent in Cubland. The argument will no longer be about ambiguities - whose fans are better, whose team plays to win, and so forth - but about reality. Winning. I just don't think you can underestimate it.

 

On a side note, although I still don't give the cubs much thought one way or the other, I have always had a fear of what would happen if they won a WS before the Sox did.

[LVSoxFan]

I was around Wrigley at the bars during that '03 final week. And I can tell you that you could literally feel the electricity in the air--it was almost too much, like bad things would happen if they won.

 

Tons and tons and tons of drunk young people were just going nuts; they had to seal off Clark between Addison and Newport because there was no way traffic was gonna get through.

 

When you say what would happen with their fans and attendance? I think it would be just like the Red Sox: no change. They'll always be packing them in.

 

But I'll tell you what: going to a Cubs game (which I do avoid whenever possible, sometimes have to go for work) is a crappy experience now. I remember when I was a kid enjoying the nice park and the relaxed atmosphere and environment--nothing better than spending a sunny day at this unique park jammed into a residential neighborhood.

 

No more. The place is packed every time now. The lack of bathrooms becomes painfully obvious the first time you have to stand in line for 20 minutes. There's no empty spaces. It is a non-stop sensory assault, as you've got thousands upon thousands of yahoos who were drunk BEFORE the game even started--and the same afterwards.

 

I realize the Sox get their drunk fans too--like on "Fight Club" Mondays--but nothing near the scale of this. Again: people go to watch baseball, not just to get hammered and be obnoxious.

 

That said, if I were a parent, I'd rather take my kids to a Sox game and that park.

 

You're right about the pride though. Winning the WS... ahh one can dream. Even now (wearing the jersey today) anybody who double-takes me I wait for them to say something--anything. But they can't. Because their team's on the golf course and we are playing until the end of October. Yeah baby!

[SpringfieldFan]

I think the Sox very well can become THE Chicago team. However, I don't think a championship will be what does it, and it won't be Ozzie, Paulie, or a 300 win career from Brandon McCarthy. The force behind it will be Sox ownership/marketing and Brooks Boyer in particular. The change has been happening for at least a few years now. They aren't catering specifically to the fans of today, but they are laying claim to the next generation right now. Fundamentals, Southpaw, kids days, family atmosphere, charities, and even Brooks' generosity to parents of newborns (potential lifeling Sox fans) is building the foundation. It is a good thing, a very good thing...

 

SFF

[Texsox]

Hmmm, we proudly say we don't go out to support a crappy team, then complain about bandwagon jumpers when the team wins? Anyone else see some irony in this?

 

There are pockets or groups of fans to swing. The family who attends a mlb game every year, looks at the family schedule to pick the game and couldn't tell which Chicago Lee is who. They may or may not switch to the Sox. Some may be scared to drive to a different stadium in a different area of the city.

 

The big prize is the business entertainment group. Make the Sox the place to be and salespeople are lining up to take their customers to games. That's the treasure box Brooks would like to open. The weekday businesss crowd, buying the good seats, spending the companies dollar.

 

The hard core base may increase by a few faces, but the guy just buying some tickets would be a nice bump.

[Balta1701]

I think the Sox very well can become THE Chicago team.  However, I don't think a championship will be what does it, and it won't be Ozzie, Paulie, or a 300 win career from Brandon McCarthy.  The force behind it will be Sox ownership/marketing and Brooks Boyer in particular.  The change has been happening for at least a few years now.  They aren't catering specifically to the fans of today, but they are laying claim to the next generation right now.  Fundamentals, Southpaw, kids days, family atmosphere, charities, and even Brooks' generosity to parents of newborns (potential lifeling Sox fans) is building the foundation.  It is a good thing, a very good thing...

The Marketing of the Angels has been one of the keys for their fan base's expansion into the LA Market in the past few years, but it's not the biggest key. The biggest key is that they're doing all that wonderful marketing work, and they've got a perennial playoff team to market.

 

They're one of the best run organizations in baseball. You know that they're improving on their team every year. They're going to give the pennant a run every year. When they lose people to FA, they spend money and hire others, or they bring up some young stud prospect and get the city fired up on him whether or not he performs.

 

You can do a lot with marketing, but there's a limit to what marketing can do with a .500 club.

[Colorado Sox Fan]

Hmmm, we proudly say we don't go out to support a crappy team, then complain about bandwagon jumpers when the team wins? Anyone else see some irony in this?

 

I think the above is the most profound statement I have read on this board. I will ponder this thoroughly tonight.

 

The big prize is the business entertainment group. Make the Sox the place to be and salespeople are lining up to take their customers to games. That's the treasure box Brooks would like to open. The weekday businesss crowd, buying the good seats, spending the companies dollar.

 

When I went to the new Comiskey the first year, one guy I sat near was an A's fan (they weren't playing the A's). He was in town and wanted to see the new ballpark. There was a Cubs fan on the other side of me. In fact, I was kinda pissed there weren't more Sox fans sitting around me. People who weren't Sox fans wanted to be there to be able to say they went to the new stadium. I think we'll see Sox games develop into "the place to be" or at least an option they would consider.