i think its about time we lay off jerry manuel

[IndySoxFan]

[BrandoFan]

Now, hindsight is 20/20...however, that's how you judge GM's, you judge them on how their stuff pans out. When he wants a contract extension he doesn't say "didn't this deal look good to do at the time?" Of course it did to him...but he's based on the results of the deal...that's the reality of being a GM

 

I would agree except for 2 things: 1) when it comes to injuries, all bets are off; Wells wasn't a "bust" as much as he got injured going into the season so it couldn't have possibly worked out no matter how smart or stupid KW is as a gen. manager...and 2) Kip Wells-Todd Ritchie was considered to be a wash/advantage Sox by overwhelming majority of Sox fans at the time. I bet Pirates management are still slapping their knees, celebrating their fortunes....I didn't care for the trade either, but I could certainly see the steely logic behind it.

 

Yes, no matter how good of a young GM Kenny is, the 2001-2002 debacle is sticking out like a sore thumb in every Sox fan's mind...and I would never say he was a success overall. However, I do realize that, as I mentioned before, that luck simply wasn't on our side, especially in 2001....Billy Beane on the other hand, completely lucked out with Mulder-Zito-Hudson-Lidle quartet to the point where he didn't need to be a genius on other trades and he wasn't. W'll see how the arrogant prick does when Tejada takes off and Hudson follows after next year....

[IndySoxFan]

once again.... please.... what the hell would you do..... different than jerry.... to improve this team? i want your opinion.

[clujer420]

that's the fact.... many of our big money guys are hitting way below their career averages. only frank thomas, a guy with an uncurable foot in mouth birth defect, made a feeble attempt to divert attention from his glaring inability to come around on anything inside, bashed jerry.

 

"you go up there and face what i get every day and see how good you do at the plate", said the former hall of famer and perpetual idiot.

 

no kidding. gee wow, it has come to this. the all-time white sox home run leader needs a 170 pound middle aged man to pinch hit for him.

 

and even after this moronacy jerry got himself thrown out of a game defending the clown..."i had to back my sparring partner".....  he defends and protects all his players.... and later the frank himself downplayed the incident...."jerry and i are fine".

No mention of Magglio, who makes more than Frank and is hitting just .02 higher?

 

No mention of Konerko, who makes more than Frank and is hitting about as good as I could?

 

No mention of Carlos Lee, who is making about as much as Frank and is hitting less than Frank?

 

No mention of Jose Valentin, who is making about as much as Frank and is hitting less?

 

So you say "many of our big money guys are hitting way below their career averages", then you turn around and rip just Frank. I see you have some sort of agenda against the man.

 

And to call him a "former hall of famer" is just retarded. The man will be in the HOF, you can book that. Unless he dies today, he'll be a 1st ballot inductee.

[Steff]

once again.... please.... what the hell would you do..... different than jerry.... to improve this team? i want your opinion.

Goof grief.. he gave several opinions already. Ease off the caffene.

[mreye]

When I saw the title of this thread, I thought "lay off Jerry Manuel" was a polite way of saying "fire Jerry Manuel". 

So did I.

 

As I was reading the post, I was trying to figure out, "Where the hell is this going?"

[CubKilla]

Yes, BUT, I think a big reason he's being bashed so much is because of how the experiments with Ritchie and David Wells worked out.  People are overlooking what he HAS done.

KW hasn't done s*** but field .500 ballclubs the last 2 seasons and a potential .500 ballclub this season. He has decimated our once strong minor league system and almost always gets raped in trades. KW is in way over his head. And that is stating the obvious.

 

And considering we haven't seen good, fundamental baseball the last 2 seasons and the first month and a half of this season, that lies with JM. He almost never fields the same line-up twice in one week. He seems to be leaning towards 2002's f***ed up process of closer by committee. With JM, it's like he is the manager of a little league team..... all the kids get to play. The lackadaisical attitude seen from this team is a direct result of the lackadaisical attitude of our manager.

 

Both need to go.

[Soxfest]

Jm is part of overall problem

[Guest wsc425]

jerry manuel has taken alot of undue criticism from many fans and many who post here.

 

      Jerry is often asked his opinion of the low turnout at the park and he always defends sox fans by saying that forteen thousand sox fans make enough noise for thirty thousand.

 

  all the players defend him. i think it was jose who was recently quoted as saying the problem with the sox was not jerry, but that the sox are simply not hitting the ball. this after jerry remarked in the paper that the problem with the sox was not management... it is that the guys are not hitting the ball!

 

  that's the fact.... many of our big money guys are hitting way below their career averages. only frank thomas, a guy with an uncurable foot in mouth birth defect, made a feeble attempt to divert attention from his glaring inability to come around on anything inside, bashed jerry.

 

  "you go up there and face what i get every day and see how good you do at the plate", said the former hall of famer and perpetual idiot.

 

  no kidding. gee wow, it has come to this. the all-time white sox home run leader needs a 170 pound middle aged man to pinch hit for him.

 

  and even after this moronacy jerry got himself thrown out of a game defending the clown..."i had to back my sparring partner".....  he defends and protects all his players.... and later the frank himself downplayed the incident...."jerry and i are fine".

 

  jerry has shown himself to be ironic, sarcastic, and witty. these are the attributes of an intelligent man. and he is a leader. ask yourself, who would you rather work for, a guy like jerry manuel or a loudmouth blow-hard like bobby valentine.

 

  jerry led this team to success in 2000. kenny the punk has done nothing but make "bold" trades. none to date have made the sox any better than the 2000 team. tony LaRussa is not comng back. hire a GM who supports jerrys leadership style. it is still mid-early in the season, but i still think we have a team who can do some damage in october.

Great post. I'm glad there aren't some f***ing ass holes around here.

[clujer420]

jerry manuel has taken alot of undue criticism from many fans and many who post here.

 

      Jerry is often asked his opinion of the low turnout at the park and he always defends sox fans by saying that forteen thousand sox fans make enough noise for thirty thousand.

 

  all the players defend him. i think it was jose who was recently quoted as saying the problem with the sox was not jerry, but that the sox are simply not hitting the ball. this after jerry remarked in the paper that the problem with the sox was not management... it is that the guys are not hitting the ball!

 

  that's the fact.... many of our big money guys are hitting way below their career averages. only frank thomas, a guy with an uncurable foot in mouth birth defect, made a feeble attempt to divert attention from his glaring inability to come around on anything inside, bashed jerry.

 

  "you go up there and face what i get every day and see how good you do at the plate", said the former hall of famer and perpetual idiot.

 

  no kidding. gee wow, it has come to this. the all-time white sox home run leader needs a 170 pound middle aged man to pinch hit for him.

 

  and even after this moronacy jerry got himself thrown out of a game defending the clown..."i had to back my sparring partner".....  he defends and protects all his players.... and later the frank himself downplayed the incident...."jerry and i are fine".

 

  jerry has shown himself to be ironic, sarcastic, and witty. these are the attributes of an intelligent man. and he is a leader. ask yourself, who would you rather work for, a guy like jerry manuel or a loudmouth blow-hard like bobby valentine.

 

  jerry led this team to success in 2000. kenny the punk has done nothing but make "bold" trades. none to date have made the sox any better than the 2000 team. tony LaRussa is not comng back. hire a GM who supports jerrys leadership style. it is still mid-early in the season, but i still think we have a team who can do some damage in october.

Great post. I'm glad there aren't some f***ing ass holes around here.

Saying our team is underachieving, then proceeding to to rip ONE single player is a great post? Cool.

[Guest wsc425]

dip s***. Manuel is better than anybody thats out there. ITS NOT HIS FAULT THAT WE COULDN'T HIT AND PITCH!!!

[CubKilla]

Manuel is better than anybody thats out there.

Shut the f*** up..... shows how much you know. If .500 baseball is good enough for you over the just about 3 past seasons, then yeah..... there's nobody out there better than Manuel

[Soxfest]

dip s***. Manuel is better than anybody thats out there. ITS NOT HIS FAULT THAT WE COULDN'T HIT AND PITCH!!!

Nothing EVER is JM fault he is always blameless :fyou JM for 5 years of s*** decisions

[idseer]

snip .... Again, Wells (we gave up nothing) .... snip

i keep reading how the david wells trade was bad only because of his injury.

i think you miss the point. you say we gave up nothing? i say we gave up our number 1 pitcher (for all we knew at the time, unless you believe kw KNEW sirotka was shot).

at BEST this was a sideways trade and imo was not a trade that would help the sox at all. i say let's stop giving kw credit for the david wells trade and that we were just unlucky.

[idseer]

Nothing EVER is JM fault he is always blameless :fyou JM for 5 years of s*** decisions

and i'm in agreement here.

 

you can't have it both ways. either kw made ALL jm's decisions, in which case the man has no balls whatsoever (i can't imagine ANY manager putting up with this for years. any self respecting guy would have quit!) - or - jm has no clue about managing. which is it? either way i say get rid of this worthless tool.

 

not to mention i find it hard to believe you can blame the lack of attention to the games basics (bunting, baserunning, pinchhit situations, pitching changes, etc.) on anyone other than the manager. either the sox are tremendously unlucky because they have all the guys in the league who don't know when to run or where to throw the ball or nobody is addressing it.

 

i think this team has had a wealth of talent for about 6 years running and the most jm has been able to do with it is play .500 ball ... in the worst division in the game!

 

it's time for a change!

[Soxplosion]

I think people like Indy should lay off of Thomas. The man is a legend. He leads us in just about every hitting category there is. But there are people here who hate him yet like a manager who has proved he is an idiot. I dont like Kenny either, but thats not because he messes with Jerry, its because he messes with Frank. The Sox players have my support, they will receive some criticism but only where such is due. But we need to run this crappy management outta town. JM, KW, JR and Eddie all need to go. These guys suck!

[Soxplosion]

and i'm in agreement here.

 

you can't have it both ways.  either kw made ALL jm's decisions, in which case the man has no balls whatsoever (i can't imagine ANY manager putting up with this for years. any self respecting guy would have quit!) - or - jm has no clue about managing. which is it?  either way i say get rid of this worthless tool.

 

not to mention i find it hard to believe you can blame the lack of attention to the games basics (bunting, baserunning, pinchhit situations, pitching changes, etc.) on anyone other than the manager. either the sox are tremendously unlucky because they have all the guys in the league who don't know when to run or where to throw the ball or nobody is addressing it.

 

i think this team has had a wealth of talent for about 6 years running and the most jm has been able to do with it is play .500 ball ... in the worst division in the game!

 

it's time for a change!

Very good point idseer. I can hardly believe any person would put up with being under KWs control for years and if he has put up with it why doesnt he do anything? Geez, it must not bother JM since he never does anything about it. Ill give you an example. If some kids made fun of you at school, and you did nothing, you have no right to complain. Jerry has done nothing about KW so he shouldnt complain.

[BrandoFan]

Let me just preface it by reminding you that I dislike KW personally, especially his tendency to abuse people under him... from what i know/heard of him, and am pretty neutral on whether he stays with the organization or not. I am just sick of everyone gleefully bashing practically every one of his moves on every corner simply because he was associated with the 2001-2002 team...all the while profellating the Boy Wonder that is Billy Beane in every publication/medium.

 

i keep reading how the david wells trade was bad only because of his injury.

i think you miss the point. you say we gave up nothing? i say we gave up our number 1 pitcher (for all we knew at the time, unless you believe kw KNEW sirotka was shot).

at BEST this was a sideways trade and imo was not a trade that would help the sox at all. i say let's stop giving kw credit for the david wells trade and that we were just unlucky.

 

Huh? WTF are talking about, did you even read the whole thread before replying?

I ask 'cause if you did, you would see that I never dreamed of putting D. Wells trade in "successful" category, in fact, I admitted the trade "backfired" a while back......But fair is fair, and considering how well he has pitched in the last 2 seasons and how well he pitched in 1997-2000, I cannot look at 2001 showing as anything but an injury-related aberration. I truly believe Kenny knew something about Sirotka though I have no proof to back it up. At worst, I say the trade was a wash, without adjusting for new season ticket holders the marquee trade brought or the inarguable positive influence D. Wells had on Buerhle....

 

Let's face it, 2001 Sox was a horrible accident on so many levels. 2002 is a a different story, and KW gets a lof of due flak for Ritchie trade even if it seemed like a safe bet at the time--Kip Wells had 6.00 ERA in 2000 and one close to 6.00 in the second half of 2001 afterall....Also, how can you realistically expect a GM to bat a 1.000 and make gold on every move he makes? Yes, again, his "misses" just happened to be pretty disasterous, I'll give you that, but not entirely his fault for various reasons mentioned.....Overall he gets a C+ grade from me, but he would have a solid A- without the Ritchie managerial accident. YMMV.

 

Cubkilla, wadr, to say Kenny singlehandedly destroyed the farm system is asinine, Kip "Jeckyl&Hyde" Wells excepted.

 

ETA: I completely forgot about his ridding the Sox of Olestra and, to a lesser exstent, overpaid Howry. Extra points.

[idseer]

David Wells is not his fault;  had the cocksucker taken care of his back a little better in the offseason(s), it would have been a good signing

yes i read the whole thread. if i misunderstood your quote here then i'm sorry, but it appears you're saying it would have been a good trade had he stayed healthy.

my point was that it was NOT a good trade even had he put up his avg. numbers (200 innings, 4.00 era, and about 15 - 9) ... again, unless you know that kw knew about sirotka's permanent injury.

we should have expected siro to put up those same numbers or better. and siro is a whole lot younger.

 

imo that makes this a sideways trade at best, and a poor trade looking down the road. (the age difference)

[Molto]

there are two ways to look at a move, how looks at the time and how it looks in the end.

 

the David Wells trade, although I was a HUGE fan of Siro, was good at the time, but was bad in the end.

 

Williams hasn't be a great GM, but he's been pretty good considering how aggressive he's been and the fact that he's made some good trades.

 

I look at it this way, the man we had before him (schueler) would've never given the Sox a chance to really contend like KW has. Schueler would've just kept going for prospects, while KW has taken chances and put a strong team on the field.

 

the problems with KW is that...

 

#1-when he doesn't base players value on the market, but his/Sox' scouts eyes.

#2-he looks to have a ego problem and doesn't appear to be well liked by the players.

[Guest wsc425]

Shut the f*** up..... shows how much you know. If .500 baseball is good enough for you over the just about 3 past seasons, then yeah..... there's nobody out there better than Manuel 

U want a world series? ITS NOT MANUELS FAULT! ITS THE OWNERS!

[Guest wsc425]

I'd like to see all of you manage a baseball team, jackasses

[Steff]

U want a world series? ITS NOT MANUELS FAULT! ITS THE OWNERS!

First it's the players fault.. now it's the owners fault..

[IndySoxFan]

hey roman, im not here to bash frank. i am a huge fan of "too big to be a man....too small to be a horse". legend or not, this guy has been in a two year tailspin. but if he wants to start pointing the finger, he should start with himself. no one else on the team has their own personal hitting coach. i would love to see 2003 frank start hitting like 2000 frank. however, as long as he is hitting 50 points below his lifetime average, he should probably keep his mouth shut. every time he says something he makes himself look like a jerk.

[Chisoxfn]

ok... looking at the bullpen we got.... and the swiss-cheese defense  .... how would you manage it?!

He's done fine with the bullpen. Continually playing Jose against lefties even though he is hitting around .150 against him (I think its even less) is the stupidest thing he could do. Well its the second stupidest. There are also a lot of times where I feel the Sox are in a good position to bunt or run a hit and run and they don't do it.

 

These aren't things I call after the fact, but before the fact. I don't second guess a manager. If I didn't complain in the first place, then if the move backfires I'm not going to complain because likely I would of done the same thing or it just wasn't a bad move at the time.

 

He gets a lot of scrutiny. The things I'd do different is get Rios and Daubach more at bats and have Graffy start every game against a lefty, with Jose sitting out 90% of all games against a lefty. Then on ocassions against righties give Jimenez some rest by putting Graffy on 2nd or let Harris play 2nd with Rios in center, giving the Sox some more lefthanded bats.