Punch and Judy Garland Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Oct 30, 2005 -> 08:40 PM) Those deadline trades were just brutal. LoDuca, Mota, and Encarnacion were all valuable parts that were given up for an overrated, inconsistent, injury prone starter in Brad Penny. The whole Randy Johnson fiasco was just as brutal (not sure what all of the parts were, but I remember thinking that they were getting screwed). They now have a team with little quality talent and a very high payroll. That seems like a good way to get fired to me. I don't think the trade hurt them that badly because Mota is damaged goods and they probably don't make the playoffs that year without Finley with all of his RBI's for him and the grand slam in the final weekend to put them there. THe Vazquez-Unit fiasco probably signaled the beginning of the end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 QUOTE(Punch and Judy Garland @ Oct 30, 2005 -> 10:52 PM) I don't think the trade hurt them that badly because Mota is damaged goods and they probably don't make the playoffs that year without Finley with all of his RBI's for him and the grand slam in the final weekend to put them there. THe Vazquez-Unit fiasco probably signaled the beginning of the end They went into a slump immediately after that trade for a reason. They lost a lot of talent in that trade. The biggest loss for them, IMO, from that trade, was Eric Gagne. Mota was doing an excellent job as a setup man for Gagne last year. Then they traded Mota, and suddenly Tracy discovered he didn't have anyone reliable as a bridge to Gagne. So what happened? Suddenly Gagne had to pitch more than the 9th. He came in during the 8th several times, and even had to come in during the 7th one game. This started right before his consecutive saves streak ended. He really started to look winded. He lost velocity on his fastball, and he started shifting his arm angle. He started having leg problems. Then, in the spring, the Dodgers allowed him to rush himself back too early, and no one paid attention when his mechanics were still off. He might have gotten hurt anyway had Mota not been traded, but in this case, I seriously doubt it. One of the reasons he was so dominant as a closer was that he was not being overused in that role, and when they started needing to overuse him, needing to ride his arm to the playoffs in 04, his arm gave out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch and Judy Garland Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 While I disagree about the impact of the trade on that season because I think it was beneficial then, I completely agree with the Gagne point. He was unreal as an Eckersley-type closer and they got cute and greedy and wanted him to pitch like Goose Gossage and I too think it led to the injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Oct 31, 2005 -> 05:26 PM) They went into a slump immediately after that trade for a reason. They lost a lot of talent in that trade. In 2004, after July, the Dodgers went 54-33. After August, they went 33-26. So, yeah, if playing .560 ball is slumping, then I certainly agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Oct 31, 2005 -> 03:57 PM) In 2004, after July, the Dodgers went 54-33. After August, they went 33-26. So, yeah, if playing .560 ball is slumping, then I certainly agree. You know, I think you're right. I was just going off of memory and didn't look it up...the 1 thing I can tell you is that the Giants really narrowed the gap in that division after that trade, but I guess our season this year should have taught me not to judge too much based on that. I still stand by my statement that the Dodgers gave up too much. Especially when one fo the things they actually wanted to get back was Hee Seop Choi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Oct 31, 2005 -> 11:03 PM) I still stand by my statement that the Dodgers gave up too much. Especially when one fo the things they actually wanted to get back was Hee Seop Choi. It's debateable. I don't think there was a clear cut winner on either side, but, I'd lean the scales a little towards Florida. Encarnacion has been about average for them -- mediocre in '04, good in '05. Lo Duca hasn't been anything special for Florida (.714 OPS in '05, .690 OPS in '04 for FLA). Mota was pretty awful this year, and good in '04. Choi has been an above average player for LA -- 110 OPS+ this year, and didn't really get a whole lot of AB's in 2004 for LA. Penny has been a little above average. Overall -- no real great players exchanging sides. Of course, it'd be nice to see a team committ to Hee Seop Choi for one year -- he's a guy who you sort of have to feel for. He's never had a manager give him a full-season to prove himself, and even in his 915 ABs, which have been spread out over four seasons, he's put up a 107 OPS+. I hope a team that isn't competing for a division title anytime soon, like Tampa Bay, gives him a shot. I think he can still be a pretty damn good hitter if given a chance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch and Judy Garland Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 I think you overrate Choi. If he faced more lefties his numbers would be awful. If he wasn't a first baseman, I'd see your point. I don't think that platoon players is the way to go at first base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 QUOTE(Punch and Judy Garland @ Nov 1, 2005 -> 02:46 PM) I think you overrate Choi. If he faced more lefties his numbers would be awful. If he wasn't a first baseman, I'd see your point. I don't think that platoon players is the way to go at first base. See, IIRC, Choi had absolutely no trouble with lefties when he was in the minors. He's had 86 ABs against lefties in the major leagues. No team has given him a chance to prove that he can or can't hit lefties. And, he's played in two notorious pitchers parks in his career, and he's put up an .808 OPS against righties. I'm just saying I'd like to see a manager give him a chance. He hasn't had that yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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