southsider2k5 Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 QUOTE(EvilMonkey @ Oct 31, 2005 -> 12:07 PM) You really have to search hard to find Muslim groups that will speak out against most of the things that have been done in the name of Allah. And even when they do speak out, they counch their words very carefully, not wanting to risk the wrath of their fellow Muslims. Only because of the slant the press likes to give these stories. It is documented out there that MANY religious leaders in Islam do not support many of the Jihads and of the killing of the innocents that are happening in their names. But of course these people never make it onto the front page of the NY Times, instead the latest Bin Laden video or the latest suicide bombing takes precendence. If you WANT to find info like this you can, you just have to want to look for it. And look no further than the crusades for Popes and Christians killing Muslims simply for being Muslim. You and I are both Christians, but to turn our backs on the history of the killings that have been carried out in the name of Jesus Christ is to open the door to them happening again in the future. We have to respect our history and NEVER allow it to happen again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 QUOTE(EvilMonkey @ Oct 31, 2005 -> 11:14 AM) Maybe because while doing their deeds they are screaming "Praise be Allah" or some other such phrase at maximum volume? Praise to Bush, Eliminate all guns! Praise to Reagan, tax the rich! My point is, what makes you believe they truly are devout and not just hijacking a religion to commit their crimes? I can't see judging Christianity by Timothy McVeigh. The KKK and other loony tunes groups quote the Bible left and right. Their beliefs are so extreme I don't think as a Christian I need to denounce them. When we finally catch up with some of these wackos in the US, they always seem to be more than a bit crazy. Moms killing their kids because God told them, Doctors killed for performing abortions because it's God's will. They too are shouting Christian phrases, yet most mainstream Christians would not want to be painted with that same brush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkey Posted October 31, 2005 Author Share Posted October 31, 2005 QUOTE(Texsox @ Oct 31, 2005 -> 08:38 PM) Praise to Bush, Eliminate all guns! Praise to Reagan, tax the rich! My point is, what makes you believe they truly are devout and not just hijacking a religion to commit their crimes? I can't see judging Christianity by Timothy McVeigh. The KKK and other loony tunes groups quote the Bible left and right. Their beliefs are so extreme I don't think as a Christian I need to denounce them. When we finally catch up with some of these wackos in the US, they always seem to be more than a bit crazy. Moms killing their kids because God told them, Doctors killed for performing abortions because it's God's will. They too are shouting Christian phrases, yet most mainstream Christians would not want to be painted with that same brush. And mainstream Christians speak out against those wackos, even prosecute them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 QUOTE(Wong & Owens @ Oct 31, 2005 -> 11:46 AM) And your distorted representation of atheists -- "Me thinks the idea that atheism, which claims there are no Gods except money and power"-- is typical christian hypocrisy. I think the term "typical christian hypocrisy" is funny. First of all, it totally doesn't fit in the context of what I said, and the foundation of my belief is the admission of my sinful nature, i.e. I'm a screw up. I find it difficult to be a hypocrite when I'm the first in line saying I mess up with life every day. I'm not even sure what the point of this thread was anymore, except that I agree with Jim's concept the generally is a minority of individuals hell bent on enforcing their ideas on the rest of society in every geo-social or religious group. Laying blame on Christianity for the crusades or hitlers actions is as laughable as those who hate muslims for Bin Laden's. The point however, was that over time Christians seem to apologize for their ancestors' wrong doing, whilst other groups aren't required to follow suit. fundementalist christians, fundementalist muslims, fundementalist gay rights groups, fundementalist seal clubbers....none of them have a place in society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 QUOTE(Wong & Owens @ Oct 31, 2005 -> 11:53 AM) LOL. And isn't ClearChannel owned by one of Bush's bestest christian buddies? Because all the entertainment they push is supremely pure and wholesome. I have yet to find the phrase "do as I say, not as I do" in the bible, could someone tell me where I would find it? I laugh at most people who try to say they're christians and continue to bank a million bucks a year. I also laugh at celebrities who yell and scream at Bush's political views, yet live in their nice million dollar homes as if they're somehow justified those lifestyles. I say woe to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 I think the term "typical christian hypocrisy" is funny. First of all, it totally doesn't fit in the context of what I said, and the foundation of my belief is the admission of my sinful nature, i.e. I'm a screw up. I find it difficult to be a hypocrite when I'm the first in line saying I mess up with life every day. The reason I labeled it hypocritical was because you railed against a gross misrepresentation of christianity, then went and threw out a gross misrepresentation of your own about atheism. No atheist I know is any more money-hungry or hell bent on controlling the world than any one else out there. I'm not even sure what the point of this thread was anymore, except that I agree with Jim's concept the generally is a minority of individuals hell bent on enforcing their ideas on the rest of society in every geo-social or religious group. Laying blame on Christianity for the crusades or hitlers actions is as laughable as those who hate muslims for Bin Laden's. The point however, was that over time Christians seem to apologize for their ancestors' wrong doing, whilst other groups aren't required to follow suit. I agree with you, to a point. I think rational muslims DO apologize for the extremist's actions, but what tv show, magazine or newspaper is ever talking to any of these people? Who gets more airtime, a peaceful muslim leader or James Dobson? fundementalist christians, fundementalist muslims, fundementalist gay rights groups, fundementalist seal clubbers....none of them have a place in society. Word to your mother on that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 QUOTE(Wong & Owens @ Oct 31, 2005 -> 03:10 PM) No atheist I know is any more money-hungry or hell bent on controlling the world than any one else out there. When the world is mine, your death shall be quick and painless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 QUOTE(EvilMonkey @ Oct 31, 2005 -> 03:27 PM) And mainstream Christians speak out against those wackos, even prosecute them. By Christians, do you mean the American people, government, etc? Wouldn't that be everyone, including Athiests, Jews, Muslims, Agnostics, etc.? Who is speaking for all the mainstream Christians? The Vatican? Salt Lake City? You and I? I agree that there are some evil people in this world. I think they come in all stripes, colors, credes, and religions. I would also agree that not all wars are fought by nations, some are fought for a belief system. I'm not so certain I would condemn an entire religion of millions of people on the works of far less than 1%. I further have a hard time believing every ball player that thanks God for a homerun is motivated by his religion or every murderer who praises Allah or God is motivated by his religion. Just evoking the name isn't enough for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 Note to LCR, atheists in the form of Joseph Stalin & other communist leaders in the 20th century are responsible for nearly 200 MILLION murders. I don't recall reading any such stories about Christians in that century. Note to LCR, atheists in the form of communist & socialists leaders in the 3rd world continue to murder people. I've not been reading the same about Christian leaders. It's common sense that as our global society progresses with education by & large we are moving towards a more peaceful co-existence. China adopting the NBA is a good example of this. The Church in general has been more than helpful in that endeavor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 QUOTE(JUGGERNAUT @ Nov 1, 2005 -> 05:27 PM) Note to LCR, atheists in the form of Joseph Stalin & other communist leaders in the 20th century are responsible for nearly 200 MILLION murders. I don't recall reading any such stories about Christians in that century. Note to LCR, atheists in the form of communist & socialists leaders in the 3rd world continue to murder people. I've not been reading the same about Christian leaders. It's common sense that as our global society progresses with education by & large we are moving towards a more peaceful co-existence. China adopting the NBA is a good example of this. The Church in general has been more than helpful in that endeavor. Note to Jugghead, some people would say that Geoge W. Bush has killed tens of thousands, all in the name of "killing tyranny". George W. Bush has professed to be a Christian. Does that make it right? You better watch what ground you're treading on there, the blade runs both ways and cuts just as sharp for some little Iraqi boy's dad laying there dead from a US Marine mortar attack. Justified? It's all in the eye of the beholder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 (edited) Are you suggesting that the millions murdered at the hands of communist leaders in the 20th century deserved to die? That some how those heinous acts were justifiable? I will grant you that Clinton's bombing of Bosnia displaced millions & that was probably not a justifiable act. But even if 10's of 1000's died in Iraq in support of Saddam Hussein & his Red Army those same people were responsible for 100's of 1000's of brutal murders of Kurds & others who opposed Saddam's tight-fisted torturous regime. The UN had turned a blind eye to such murderous acts for years. Had we done nothing they would still continue today. The WMD argument never sold me on the war. I always thought it cost too much & was against it when Bush announced it. As soon as he did I came up with a figure of $270B before it's done. I was not willing to bear that cost. But I have to say when ABC aired that special report covering Saddam's family members & how they took delight at feeding Kurds feet first into a plastic shredder so they could enjoy their screams I felt sick to my stomach. I was moved to the point of thinking we have to do something to save these people. At that time I was willing to back the Kurds with arms & all we could muster JUST SO LONG AS WE DIDN'T GET DIRECTLY INVOLVED. But such an act would have been vehemently opposed in the UN as picking sides. But in retrospect our direct involvement has not been seen as being any better so we should have simply backed the Kurds. Maybe it would have resulted in a slaughter but it would NOT be blood on our hands. We would do everything diplomatically speaking to prevent such a consequence. I will never agree with it being diplomatically better to get personally involved in these conflicts. We jump in the fire so as to say we are not picking any sides. I think that ideology stinks. What is wrong with the US declaring to any oppressed group in the world we've got your back so long as you embrace the principles of elected governments & capitalism? That is what America is. What value is there in denying? Nations world over will respect you more for being honest about it rather than trying to downplay it & paint yourself as a peacemaker with no agenda of your own. Edited November 1, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 Juggernaut is my hero.... and he looks like Jimmy Smits:) ( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 QUOTE(sox4lifeinPA @ Nov 1, 2005 -> 01:40 PM) Juggernaut is my hero.... You could do so much better....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 QUOTE(Wong & Owens @ Nov 1, 2005 -> 01:17 PM) You could do so much better....... anyone that makes me look moderate is my hero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 QUOTE(sox4lifeinPA @ Nov 1, 2005 -> 10:32 PM) anyone that makes me look moderate is my hero. That's true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 This thread reminds me of that time I was hanging out with my navy buddies at a bar and we burst into "You've lost that loving feeling".... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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