Sox have interest in Piazza

[CWSGuy406]

Wite, Jason --

 

I'm not buying the 'he played in Shea Stadium so his numbers are a little skewed' argument. First, bbr had Shea playing just below neutral (or, just a tiny bit as a pitcher's park) this year. If Shea Stadium was really taking away a bunch of homers from Piazza, he'd have a lot of doubles: he doesn't -- he had 23. With 19 homers. Next -- OPS+ accounts for that (park factors), and he still wasn't a very good hitter -- .251/.326/.452 is not the line you need out of a DH.

 

Piazza, simply put, isn't a good option. At least with a healthy Thomas, you know you're going to get good production. The same can't be said (anymore) about Piazza.

[Steff]

Piazza, simply put, isn't a good option.  At least with a healthy Thomas, you know you're going to get good production.  The same can't be said (anymore) about Piazza.

 

 

At this point.. Mike doesn't have a potentially career ending injury. At this point, there is no guarantee that Frank will ever play again.

 

Just based on that Piazza is at the very least an equal, slightly more of a lean towards less, risk.

[jackie hayes]

Wite, Jason --

 

I'm not buying the 'he played in Shea Stadium so his numbers are a little skewed' argument.  First, bbr had Shea playing just below neutral (or, just a tiny bit as a pitcher's park) this year.  If Shea Stadium was really taking away a bunch of homers from Piazza, he'd have a lot of doubles:  he doesn't -- he had 23.  With 19 homers.  Next -- OPS+ accounts for that (park factors), and he still wasn't a very good hitter -- .251/.326/.452 is not the line you need out of a DH.

 

Piazza, simply put, isn't a good option.  At least with a healthy Thomas, you know you're going to get good production.  The same can't be said (anymore) about Piazza.

So you wouldn't buy the line that, if he isn't playing catcher (I'd expect him to catch absolutely no more than 5 games in the whole season), he'd be less tired, healthier, and sustain his bat over the course of a season better?

 

I don't know. 2005 he was terrible, but the two years before that he was still hitting pretty well. I'd give that a look as dh material. If there's a reason (injury) to think it might have all just vanished, okay, pass. O/w, I think it may just be a fluke. Of course it's a last option, and of course it's got to be low salary, but it sounds...plausible.

[Chisoxfn]

Wite, Jason --

 

I'm not buying the 'he played in Shea Stadium so his numbers are a little skewed' argument.  First, bbr had Shea playing just below neutral (or, just a tiny bit as a pitcher's park) this year.  If Shea Stadium was really taking away a bunch of homers from Piazza, he'd have a lot of doubles:  he doesn't -- he had 23.  With 19 homers.  Next -- OPS+ accounts for that (park factors), and he still wasn't a very good hitter -- .251/.326/.452 is not the line you need out of a DH.

 

Piazza, simply put, isn't a good option.  At least with a healthy Thomas, you know you're going to get good production.  The same can't be said (anymore) about Piazza.

Why do you all just assume Frank is going to play again. There is no guarantee that he's gonna be back. Franks injury is VERY VERY serious and it has been re-occuring.

 

Also, I don't need to look at stats to know that Shea is a pitchers park. The dimensions are spacious and the ball doesn't carry well there. They happened to have quite a few power hitters and there pitcher (namely the pen) tend to give up HR's. Sometimes the type of team you have plays into those stats.

 

For example if a team had 6 or 7 30 HR guys and went to play in Dodger stadium you may get the stats to show up and say they were playing in a neutral stadium to maybe even a hitters stadium (especially if there team gave up a gazillion Hr's).

 

We all know I'm not a big guy on stats. I look about 20% stats, 50% talent and about 30% into the salary (cause that is a definate factor, in fact it may be an even higher factor). I just don't think looking solely at stats does it.

 

Hell I'm convinced that despite what all the Beane lovers say, they need to notice he does look at tools. If he didn't he'd of gotten some AAA stiffs that put up sick numbers in trades as opposed to the Dan Haren's of the world.

[CWSGuy406]

Jason --

 

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, either, about Shea playing so neutral this year. Your theory/logic certainly makes sense.

 

 

W/r/t Thomas, I'm not saying he's going to play again. But I think Piazza is going to ask for more guaranteed money than Frank will (maybe I'm wrong on that), and I think I'd rather have Frank on an incentive laden deal than Piazza with guaranteed cash. I'm sure some team will overpay for Piazza's services...

 

Jackie -- I dunno, that may come to fruition, and maybe he just needs the 'days off' as a DH. But he hasn't been a really good hitter since 2003. Even if he does hit relatively well, I don't think it'll be much better than a .270/.350/.475 line. Don't get me wrong, that's an okay line -- I just think we can do a little better than that. Heck, if they're going to go on a route like that -- I'd much rather they go for Durazo. I think he'd come cheaper than Piazza (and Thomas for that matter), yet could still put up good numbers (provided, of course, he can bounce back from the TJ surgery).

 

Hell I'm convinced that despite what all the Beane lovers say, they need to notice he does look at tools. If he didn't he'd of gotten some AAA stiffs that put up sick numbers in trades as opposed to the Dan Haren's of the world.

 

I think any Beane fan that tells you that he only looks at stats, and totally avoids tools, is a fool.

Edited November 14, 2005 by CWSGuy406

[Chisoxfn]

Jason --

 

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, either, about Shea playing so neutral this year.  Your theory/logic certainly makes sense.

W/r/t Thomas, I'm not saying he's going to play again.  But I think Piazza is going to ask for more guaranteed money than Frank will (maybe I'm wrong on that), and I think I'd rather have Frank on an incentive laden deal than Piazza with guaranteed cash.  I'm sure some team will overpay for Piazza's services... 

 

Jackie -- I dunno, that may come to fruition, and maybe he just needs the 'days off' as a DH.  But he hasn't been a really good hitter since 2003.  Even if he does hit relatively well, I don't think it'll be much better than a .270/.350/.475 line.  Don't get me wrong, that's an okay line -- I just think we can do a little better than that.  Heck, if they're going to go on a route like that -- I'd much rather they go for Durazo.  I think he'd come cheaper than Piazza (and Thomas for that matter), yet could still put up good numbers (provided, of course, he can bounce back from the TJ surgery).

I think any Beane fan that tells you that he only looks at stats, and totally avoids tools, is a fool.

My problem with Durazo is that he's plain and simple a Dh and unless your one heck of a hitter I'm not a fan of those type of DH's. That said if later on in the FA process he's sitting without a job, he could turn into a good option.

 

Sometimes certain guys end up becoming great values because they just don't fit anywhere. This happened with Brad Fullmer back when he was with Anaheim (I'm talking a few years ago) and even Jose Guillen (who slipped through the cracks and signed a really reasonable deal).

 

If Thomas was healthy I'd sign him, but right now I wouldn't and obviously (which I think has been mentioned a few times) you can't go with Frank and Durazo because that gives Guillen (a guy who loves depth) no options and would mean the Sox would have to carry less pitching (something he doesn't want to do).

[Chisoxfn]

I think any Beane fan that tells you that he only looks at stats, and totally avoids tools, is a fool.

Thats why he's the best of the sabermatric type GM's. Because he actually is willing to role with the punches. Everyone talks about him loving OBP, he didn't fall in love with OBP, he noticed that guys with high OBP's and OPS were not in demand at the time and he could get guys like Matt Stairs and company at a discount (people were paying a premium for other things).

 

More recently there has been a shift in that trend and now OBP and OPS are becoming a premium and speed has been the bargain. Ken Williams jumped all over that this past off-season (well it wasn't just speed) but took advantage of it in a sense. You'll notice more teams factor speed and defense into the category.

 

The same can be applied to the draft. Everyone mentioned Beane's love of college draft picks. He loved them because for a long time people were over-drafting high school players, which meant the college crop was deeper and one where you could get a better player with your pick. More recently thats tended to change a bit (or at least even out) and you'll notice Beane disciples (and Beane as well, but mainly Depodesta) go out and actually take a large amount of high school guys (other people caught onto the college thing and went heavy with that, leaving high school guys a better pick).

[CWSGuy406]

Beane and Williams actually constructed very similar teams this year. Pitching and defense heavy, fairly weak offensively. They actually ranked #1 and #2 in Defensive Efficiency.

 

Of course, I doubt they have the same 'principals', but the two teams were almost identical.

[jackie hayes]

I like Durazo a lot better than Piazza, but it's fa -- who knows. Durazo's price could be higher than anyone thinks, maybe he wants to stay closer to home, maybe KW has no interest. Piazza, w/ a line like the one you put up, would be worth a few million in that case. Not my first choice, but I wouldn't take it off the table.

 

Durazo may be "plain and simple a Dh", but that's how I'm thinking of Piazza, too. The thought of him behind the plate gives me the willies.

 

Am I the only one hoping that we sign Frank AND someone else? It sounded like Frank's gonna open the season on the dl, anyway -- if he's going to take a while to round into form, can't we just start the season w/ Hurt on the 60-day, then see how things go?

[HoosierSox]

Jurrasic Carl>Piazza. Thats all I have to say.

[GreatScott82]

Wow, im surprised with all the negative Damon response? I think he's an awesome offensive threat. YES, he would be a downgrade in RF defensively, but he would be an awesome #2 hitter. I was simply just throwing it out there just in case Pauly walks. Ozzie wants more speed at the top of the lineup. He wants Iguchi lower for offensive production reasons. Hmmm Ozzie wants more speed. JR/KW want alittle more power- WWKD? (What will Kenny Do?)

Its going to be hard to keep the team together if the want to fulfill those wishes. If Pauly leaves- we lose power, and JR and KW want more power?! Somethings got to give here? If Pauly leaves- trades WILL be made.

[Balta1701]

Wow, im surprised with all the negative Damon response? I think he's an awesome offensive threat. YES, he would be a downgrade in RF defensively, but he would be an awesome #2 hitter. I was simply just throwing it out there just in case Pauly walks. Ozzie wants more speed at the top of the lineup. He wants Iguchi lower for offensive production reasons. Hmmm Ozzie wants more speed. JR/KW want alittle more power- WWKD? (What will Kenny Do?)

Its going to be hard to keep the team together if the want to fulfill those wishes. If Pauly leaves- we lose power, and JR and KW want more power?! Somethings got to give here? If Pauly leaves- trades WILL be made.

I think that the negative Damon response has a number of different sections, but here's the key for me: other than AJ Burnett, I think that the player on the FA Market who is going to wind up this offseason with the most bloated, overdone, too-expensive contract is Johnny Damon.

 

I mean, seriously, how many players are there that could spark a literal bidding war between the Red Sox and the Yankees?

 

The 1 thing I keep thinking about w/respect to the FA Market is this...2 seasons ago, we paid over $40 million to Konerko, Ordonez, Lee, and Valentin. That was I believe over 60% of our total salary that year. NO TEAM IN BASEBALL paid that high of a percentage of its total salary to only 4 guys. No other team. And Throw in Thomas getting a nice chunk on top of that.

 

We won in part because we spread our dollars out. It's nice to be able to have some to spend, but it's not always the top-dollar guys who build championship teams.

[TLAK]

A DH that could catch, named Piazza or something else, could help a lot. Carrying only two catchers severly limited Ozzie last season. You couldn't DH AJ to give him a rest because you would end up giving up the DH if something happened to Widger. He had to be reluctant to pinch for either guy and leave himself with no catcher on the bench, this led to eating some late game match ups I think Oz would have perferred to avoid, plus AJ played more innings during the dog days than would have been ideal.

 

It was a magical year and the Sox got a way with it but these things tend to tell over time. A competent catcher who could also fill another roster spot, be it DH or somewhere else, would be a welcome addition.

[Balta1701]

In all honesty, I don't think that saying a guy can play DH and Catch at the same time is really saying all that much anyway.

 

You can take a backup at any position and make them a DH. By having a guy who can DH/Catch, you're basically not gaining all that much. Think about this...if we replaced Everett with Piazza, yeah, we'd get the extra backup catcher, but we'd lose the backup outfielder (and maybe even lose some production). We're not exactly gaining much if all that the guy could do is play catcher.

 

If we felt like we could trust a guy like Piazza to play 1b for 10-20 games, catch for 10-20 games, and DH for some extra games, then that could be helpful, because it could give us a guy who could sub in for 2 different spots in addition to filling the DH role - in other words, we'd be getting a guy to do Blum's job who could also catch. That could be useful.

 

But just remember this...if Piazza plays DH to start a game...he can't come into the field later in the game or the pitchers spot will have to hit. So for him to be useful as a 3rd catcher...you still need another main DH (35).

[Felix]

There is also some talk that Ozzie wants some more speed behind Podsednick. So why not make a run for Damon? If we can't resign Pauly- why not Dye play 1B and Damon plays RF? Damon and Dye were teamates in KC and im sure he would play some sort of role of getting him over here? Imagine this:

 

Pods LF

Damon RF

Dye 1B

Thomas/Piazza DH

Pierzynski C

Iguchi 2B

Rowand CF

Crede 3B

Uribe Ss

 

Not too shabby and still have to core of the championship team still here. What do you guys think?

I would cry from misery if I ever saw that lineup in Chicago. It would produce less runs than the lineup last year, and would basically just suck in general.

Damon will not be coming to Chicago. He is a defensive bum with one of the worst arms in the league, which is the opposite of what this team is based around.

[YASNY]

I would cry from misery if I ever saw that lineup in Chicago.  It would produce less runs than the lineup last year, and would basically just suck in general.

Damon will not be coming to Chicago.  He is a defensive bum with one of the worst arms in the league, which is the opposite of what this team is based around.

 

Not the south side of Chicago.

[Felix]

Not the south side of Chicago.

Yea, sorry for not being specific

[TheBigHurt]

Mike Piazza as a backup catcher?

[RockRaines]

I don't think there is that much. If your going by what Bighurt2283294 said, I feel sorry for you.

 

Damon is going to get alot of money somewhere, money that we can spend elsewhere. However, I do still think he is an attractive hitter. He probably has 3, maybe 4 solid years left in him, so I would think you could expect .280-.300, and around a .350-.370 OBP. Ozzie has said he wants more speed, and they have also talked about moving Tad down in the order. Damon in the 2 hole could be pretty nice.

 

The money is the issue, and for good reason.

Gross. Can you imagine an OF of Rowand Pods and Damon. Talk about the least productive OF in the MLB. That would absolutley kill this team, and its offense. If you all are thinking this team does not rely on power and HR's think again. Replacing a power position with the weak hitting and equally weak-armed Damon would not only make the defense WORSE in RF, especially with assists, but the offense would struggle immensely.

[Whitesoxfan56]

I would much rather have Nomar.  He had two freak injuries, and is a better player at this point in his career, and a better athlete. I like the Widge behind the plater better than Piazza.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I agree, I would love to have Nomar at DH, and you could also give Crede, or Uribe a day off and have Nomar play 3B, or SS here or there

[Felix]

Mike Piazza as a backup catcher? 

We already have one..

[TheBigHurt]

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Nov 15, 2005 -> 10:37 AM)

Gross.  Can you imagine an OF of Rowand Pods and Damon.  Talk about the least productive OF in the MLB.  That would absolutley kill this team, and its offense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Come again?

 

Shouldn't that be in green?

[RockRaines]

Come again? 

 

Shouldn't that be in green? 

Uh no, are you serious, you are essentially replacing Dye's production with that of Damon, and downgrading defensively, especially in assists. That OF would be the least productive of any in the MLB, power, RBI's, would all be below avg.

 

Damon is not a good fit on this team.

[TheBigHurt]

I'm not arguing that, but Damon being in our outfield wouldn't make our outfield overall bad. I can't see how you could say ARow and Pods are not productive. In fact if I may be honest, I think that would be a very ridiculous statement. And to be honest, IMO if Konerko left, I honestly would be at least partially in favor of Damon. I realize he's not a great outfielder, but his bat would be really helpful. Of course YES, this team IS based more on defense and pitching, so I guess I'm a bit out of line, but still, that would be very tempting.

 

 

*EDIT* You said offensively, ok, but let's not make assumptions that Arow isn't going to better his numbers from this year. Overall even offensively I can't see things getting worse, in fact I'd see them getting better. And besides, I think the big picture is how they fit into their spot in the lineup, not how offensive they are as a collective outfield O_o

Edited November 15, 2005 by TheBigHurt

[Felix]

I'm as big a fan of the two as any, but A-Row and Pods had a collective OPS in the low .700's. Thats not really productive.

They did well in their spots in the lineup, which is more important imo, but they weren't that productive as offensive players.