JUAN PIERRE

[witesoxfan]

Wite -- I don't understand your comment about Milton Bradley.  I've heard that he's one of the better outfielders (defensively) in baseball.  His ZR is similar to Pierre's, and he rated well in Tango's Defensive Scouting Report.

 

I was referring more or less to his ability to be burned from time to time.

 

I recall very clearly him misjudging balls very badly and having the balls fly over his head atleast twice against the Sox when he was in Cleveland. He may be a solid defensive CFer in all, but he's relatively lazy at times.

[ZoomSlowik]

I know, i made it worse.

 

Ooooooooops i did it again...

 

LOL, that avatar is hilarious!

 

Anyways, here's something to consider. There are situations where Pierre isn't the second hitter in the lineup after Pods gets on to lead off the game. In fact, they make up most of the game. Neither player gets a ton of extra base hits (Pierre's triples would likely drop moving from their park to ours), meaning they're going to be on first a lot needing to steal or bunt them over to get them in scoring position. This is even a bigger issue in RBI situations. If Uribe hits a 2 out double, what are the odds that Pods or Pierre drives him in? Not very high. Neither is very adept at getting a hit when they absolutely need one. This isn't as big a deal in the NL when Pierre typically hit behind the pitcher and their crappy #8 hitter. It's a bigger deal with threats like Crede, Uribe, and possibly Anderson hitting in front of him. That 1-2 punch would make some plays stealing bases and their would probably be a few more successful bunts. However, that also results in at least 15 more caught stealings, and Pierre's average probably wouldn't be around .300 if he's constantly sacrificing for Pods. He's lead off most of his career, meaning he's used to just doing his thing. More importantly, that duo would be virtually useless unless we have a clutch hitter with a high average in the 3-hole like Ivan Rodriguez was during their WS season. Even assuming we re-sign Paulie, we'd still have Dye and Konerko hitting 3rd and 4th. Those are two .270-ish hitters with fairly low OBP that don't go the other way as often as they should. That means we're stranding Pods on second and Pierre on first an awful lot. We'd need to add a guy that's going to hit well into the .300 to maximize the impact of a Pods-Pierre leadoff pair, something we don't have and aren't all that likely to acquire.

Edited November 22, 2005 by ZoomSlowik

[nitetrain8601]

This quote just proves you don't know what you're talking about.

 

Rowand played shallower than any CFer in the history of USCF. I noted he was playing about 5 feet farther in this year as early as the second week of the season. It's the reason he was much better defensively this year. Before he was going back and waiting under the ball at the wall. When he moved closer, he was still able to get back on the ball, but was able to cover far more ground in front of him and in the gaps. But yeah, he just played farter back so nothing got over his head. :rolly:

 

I value Rowand's defense, yes, but I don't think he's super human. I may be one of his biggest critics when it comes to his play at the plate. I have a very realistic view of his value. It varies from team to team. To the Yankees, he has less value than say Torri Hunter, but to the Fish, he has more. Why? salary. It's simple. The Marlins are looking to dump payroll. But a Rowand for Pierre trade saves them a minimal amount. Rowand+Marte+specs for Delgado unloads tons of money.

 

I'm all for trading Rowand. 1) he's in demand. 2) Because he's locked up on the cheap, he's never likely to have a higher value. 3) there appears to be a replacement in Brian N Anderson waiting in the wings. 4) The Sox need to get value out of their system.

 

 

I shall respond to this post tommorow. It's simply too long for me to read.

Look, Remember the '01-02 Twins. They had a ton of OFers on the cusp of the Majors. Kielty, Mohr, Kubel, Restovich, Ford. They had Jones and Hunter locked up... They appeared to be in a position to acquire a few arms and make a real run at the title. Instead they hung onto those chips for too long, and found that they didn't have much value anymore. They would be in a much different position if they were looking to trade some of those guys at the beginning of '01 instead of playing is close to the vest and holding on to them all.

 

You don't trade from your strength, to acquire more of the same. With Rowand, Anderson, Young, and even Podsednik and Owens to an extent. We have an abundance of speedy centerfield types. What we don't have is a left handed bat with power anywhere close to being ready to contribute on the major league level. So you package one of those 5 names with some pitching and you find that on the open market.

 

Pierre for Rowand at best is trading a quater for 2 dimes, a nickel, and a penny.

 

I'll read all of that later today. It's too early.

Edited November 22, 2005 by nitetrain8601

[Chisoxfn]

Laughable?  Compare Rowand's ZR, Rate 2, and Defensive Win Shares to Pierre's -- all are significantly better in Rowand's favor.  Significantly.

 

But of course, how can I argue with the ESPN Scouting Report?

 

Wite -- I don't understand your comment about Milton Bradley.  I've heard that he's one of the better outfielders (defensively) in baseball.  His ZR is similar to Pierre's, and he rated well in Tango's Defensive Scouting Report.

 

Jim -- pesky offense of last year?  They were certainly pesky in the playoffs (moreso because of the HR than because of the SB), but in the regular season, they ranked 9th in runs scored. 

 

I think the plan should be to attempt to maintain your production from 1B/RF spot(Delgado?  Thome?  Giles?  All three, if healthy -- I'd argue -- will produce better than Konerko will next year), while substantially improving the offense from your DH spot (a healthy Thomas?  a healthy Durazo?  something else?).

 

I don't expect our offense to be great, at least not next year.  There's not enough money to spread around to make it 'great'.  But I think it can improve to 5th or 6th in the AL in runs scored, just with a move or two.  Ideally, you can resign Konerko and get Thome, but I don't know if that's exactly reasonable, either...

Bradley is a talented player but he is not a good defensive outfielder.

[DBAHO]

From today's Newark Stark Ledger;

 

The Yankees would like to be able to lure center fielder Aaron Rowand from the Chicago White Sox, but as of yesterday the White Sox were working on a deal that would send Rowand to the Florida Marlins for center fielder Juan Pierre.

[Rowand44]

From today's Newark Stark Ledger;

Very interesting. On a sidenote, get your ass on aim, I'm lonely.

[YASNY]

From today's Newark Stark Ledger;

 

I seriously doubt this is case.

[fathom]

Am I the only one that thinks we've seen the last of Rowand in a White Sox uniform?

[YASNY]

Am I the only one that thinks we've seen the last of Rowand in a White Sox uniform?

 

No. I think it's likely he will be traded. I just don't think he'll go to Florida for Pierre.

[Rowand44]

No.  I think it's likely he will be traded.  I just don't think he'll go to Florida for Pierre.

IMO Pierre could end up here and Aaron could be gone but I highly doubt you see them one for one, there would be much more to a deal.

[timotime]

I thought you were not gonna talk about this topic much? A thread should never be 22 pages about juan pierre unless we acquire him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

why not? it's the offseason.

[SSH2005]

Am I the only one that thinks we've seen the last of Rowand in a White Sox uniform?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, I agree with you. I think Rowand is going in any trade the Sox make.

[sircaffey]

No.  I think it's likely he will be traded.  I just don't think he'll go to Florida for Pierre.

Yep, he gone...But I would think Rowand goes to Philly for Thome. Then Marte for Pierre. That's really the only sensible thing I see out of this cluster of rumors.

[fathom]

Yep, he gone...But I would think Rowand goes to Philly for Thome.  Then Marte for Pierre.  That's really the only sensible thing I see out of this cluster of rumors.

 

Quick question: Why do people think Marte and a mid-level prospect will be enough to get Pierre?

[RockRaines]

Quick question:  Why do people think Marte and a mid-level prospect will be enough to get Pierre?

Cocaine is a hell of a drug.

[SSH2005]

Quick question:  Why do people think Marte and a mid-level prospect will be enough to get Pierre?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A big reason is that the Marlins want to improve their bullpen and dump salary at the same time. A trade of Marte and prospects for Pierre could do both. I think we'd have to give up a good prospect or two in the deal though.

[whitesoxmanager]

NO TRADES PLEASE!

 

LETS ROLL THEM SUCKERS AGAIN WITH THE SAME TEAM DAMNIT!

 

REMEMBER WILBUR MARSHALL?

[Chisoxfn]

Yep, he gone...But I would think Rowand goes to Philly for Thome.  Then Marte for Pierre.  That's really the only sensible thing I see out of this cluster of rumors.

Thats what I see happening as well.

[timotime]

NO TRADES PLEASE! 

 

LETS ROLL THEM SUCKERS AGAIN WITH THE SAME TEAM DAMNIT!

 

REMEMBER WILBUR MARSHALL?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

that's what i think too. why fix something that aint broken?

[fathom]

that's what i think too. why fix something that aint broken?

 

Ask the Angels from a couple of years ago how that worked for them. The rest of the teams in the AL Central will very likely be much improved this upcoming season. I think this team could use a little tweak, especially at the DH spot.

[timotime]

A big reason is that the Marlins want to improve their bullpen and dump salary at the same time.  A trade of Marte and prospects for Pierre could do both.  I think we'd have to give up a good prospect or two in the deal though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

florida's GM, whoever he is, i am sure does not have down syndrome. because the only way the deal you speak of is going down is if thier GM does have down syndrome.

[RME JICO]

From a stats comparison, Pierre did only have 45 K's in 656 AB's which is really good. Compare that to 116 out of 578 AB's for Rowand.

 

Other stats:

SB's - Pierre 57, Rowand 16

HR's - Rowand 13, Pierre 2

3B's - Pierre 13, Rowand 5

 

2B's - Rowand 30, Pierre 19

SLG - Rowand .736, Pierre .680

RBI - Rowand 47, Pierre 69

 

AVG and OBP about the same.

 

If this was a one for one, and the Sox want more speed, and a lefty batter, it is pretty easy to see that this would be a great move.

 

Contracts:

 

Pierre $5 million a year for 3 years (2005-2008)

 

Rowand $3.25 million in 2006. He holds a player option for 2007 at $3.25 million. If he declines it, the White Sox can exercise a $5 million option.

 

 

So does adding Thome and Pierre a better option than Rowand, Marte, Everett, and a prospect? I guess if they are pursuing Pierre, what does that say for Anderson?

Edited November 22, 2005 by WinninUgly

[RockRaines]

  I guess if they are pursuing Pierre, what does that say for Anderson?

It means that either Anderson isnt ready, or we may be looking to deal him right now. Who really knows, all this speculation doesnt carry much weight. Look back 2 pages of this thread and people are saying that we are packaging people for Delgado, well look who didnt get him. Following the trends, I will guess that if we make a deal, it will be something that none of us thought of.

[Guest JimH]

It means that either Anderson isnt ready, or we may be looking to deal him right now.  Who really knows, all this speculation doesnt carry much weight.  Look back 2 pages of this thread and people are saying that we are packaging people for Delgado, well look who didnt get him.  Following the trends, I will guess that if we make a deal, it will be something that none of us thought of.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Great post, exactly right.

 

My hunch is we'll get Thome though.

[RockRaines]

Great post, exactly right.

 

My hunch is we'll get Thome though.

We all know your track record for hunches