JUAN PIERRE

[Rowand44]

Like steals?  Rowand is a more successful stealer, does that count?

 

Also, tell me what a good offensive player does, since you obviously don't think having a higher slugging + on base percentage makes up a good one.

Pierre is a better leadoff hitter, but is not the better offensive player.

OPS isnt the end all, be all stat.

[Felix]

OPS isnt the end all, be all stat.

No, but its one of the best for showing how productive an offensive player is.

[Soxpranos]

Like steals?  Rowand is a more successful stealer, does that count?

 

Also, tell me what a good offensive player does, since you obviously don't think having a higher slugging + on base percentage makes up a good one.

Pierre is a better leadoff hitter, but is not the better offensive player.

 

 

What about total steals? Get of your fanatsy Rowand Island and come to reality. Pierr by far has more speed, can bunt for hits, walk, does not strike out as much as Rowand and plays a team ball style of game. Im sure if Pierre batted higher in the order his numbers like slugging percentage would be more. Try Runs scored also. Iguchi in Rowands spot of the line up , is a super upgrade. Talking about the whole picture, not just wonder boy. Oh , did I mention Pierre can bunt for hits as well as sacrafice.

Edited November 20, 2005 by Soxpranos

[Felix]

What about total steals? Get of your fanatsy Rowand Island and come to reality. Pierr by far has more speed, can bunt for hits, walk, does not strike out as much as Rowand and plays a team ball style of game. Im sure if Pierre batted higher in the order his numbers like slugging percentage would be more. Try Runs scored also.  Iguchi in Rowands spot of the line up , is a super upgrade. Talking about the whole picture, not just wonder boy. Oh , did I mention Pierre can bunt for hits as well as sacrafice.

Sometimes I dont think you even read all the posts before replying..

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...ndpost&p=965412

 

And yes, you did mention that he can bunt for hits and sacrifice, but you know what? We already have that. Thats exactly what Podsednik is. We only need one Scott Podsednik.

 

And I have nothing wrong with trading Rowand. If its for a real offensive asset, then ok, lets do it. Put him in a trade for Delgado, and I won't complain. But trading away a cheaper, and arguably better player (Rowand is far superior defensively, the real question is about their offense, and I, obviously, think that Rowand is better offensively as well) for Pierre doesn't make sense to me. What happens if the money that the Sox spend on overpaying Pierre makes it impossible to sign Konerko? Would his ability to steal 50 bases while get thrown out ~20 times really be worth it? No.

 

Keeping Rowand for another year makes sense. After 2006, trade Rowand off, or keep him as a 4th outfield and give the centerfield job to Anderson or Young (not really sure when Young is projected to be major league ready), but trading him now just doesn't sit right with me, especially since he'll be wanting to prove that 2004 wasn't a fluke.

[AddisonStSox]

I'm just going to stick this here:

 

Since we have all but packed Damaso's bags for South Florida, who does Kenny intend to fill that void with?

 

Looking at the lefties in the system, it would appear nothing doing there. None of those kids seem really ready for the bigs, unless, of course, someone like Haig were to impress in ST.

 

Would we go into the season with Neal as the only LH in the pen, or, are we looking at a FA signing?

[Felix]

I'm just going to stick this here:

 

Since we have all but packed Damaso's bags for South Florida, who does Kenny intend to fill that void with?

 

Looking at the lefties in the system, it would appear nothing doing there.  None of those kids seem really ready for the bigs, unless, of course, someone like Haig were to impress in ST.

 

Would we go into the season with Neal as the only LH in the pen, or, are we looking at a FA signing?

Personally, I'd probably go into next year with only one LH, and bring up Baj to fill in the void in the bullpen. However, they'll probably add another lefty through trade or free agency.

[Soxpranos]

Maybe we sign Ishi from Japan, has a good arm and is 28.

[witesoxfan]

Pierre is a better leadoff hitter, but is not the better offensive player.

 

Rowand44 was trying to explain this earlier to you.

 

Would Juan Pierre be better in his role on the team than Iguchi was last year? Personally...I'd say yes...that is completely arguable.

 

Would Iguchi be better in his role on the team than Rowand was last year? Personally, I'd say yes, but again, it's arguable.

 

You then have to look at Pierre versus Rowand, defensively. Others don't agree, but from what I have seen of Pierre, he looks like a very solid defender in CF, probably underrated by some while being overrated by others. He has very good range out there, just due to his talent, but his arm is horribly weak, which would be a problem because there would maybe be 1 runner thrown out all year from the OF if a ball is hit to the LF gap, as Podsednik and Pierre's arms are about equally weak. Rowand is a very solid defensive OFer, all around...but he was not a huge key to the team this year offensively, but was defensively, and he's due a small raise from what I remember.

 

The question I ask is...is the slight(IMO) downgrade defensively in CF worth the added offense along with subtracting what you lose? If it is, the trade is a no-brainer.

 

 

As to who you replace Marte with in the trade...hell, try Munoz. Maybe Myers. Maybe KW seems another diamond in the rough very similar to Marte in 2002.

[Felix]

Rowand44 was trying to explain this earlier to you.

 

Would Juan Pierre be better in his role on the team than Iguchi was last year?  Personally...I'd say yes...that is completely arguable.

No, I don't think so.

 

You then have to look at Pierre versus Rowand, defensively.  Others don't agree, but from what I have seen of Pierre, he looks like a very solid defender in CF, probably underrated by some while being overrated by others.  He has very good range out there, just due to his talent, but his arm is horribly weak, which would be a problem because there would maybe be 1 runner thrown out all year from the OF if a ball is hit to the LF gap, as Podsednik and Pierre's arms are about equally weak.  Rowand is a very solid defensive OFer, all around...but he was not a huge key to the team this year offensively, but was defensively, and he's due a small raise from what I remember. 

There is a huge difference between the two on defense, and I'm not really sure what you are looking at if you think Pierre is anywhere near Rowand's caliber. Ask any expert, they will tell you the same. Pierre is basically the same player as Podsednik, except with a worse arm.

[SSH2005]

No, I don't think so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Juan Pierre barely strikes out and almost always hits the ball into play. Iguchi struck out 114 times. While Iguchi is a pretty good bunter, Pierre is one of the best bunters in the MLB. Pierre has much more speed than Iguchi and can steal a lot more bases. Because of these reasons, I think it's more than reasonable to say that Pierre would be a better #2 hitter for us than Iguchi.

Edited November 20, 2005 by SSH2005

[Felix]

Juan Pierre barely strikes out and almost always hits the ball into play.  Iguchi struck out 114 times.  While Iguchi is a pretty good bunter, Pierre is one of the best bunters in the MLB.  Pierre has much more speed than Iguchi and can steal a lot more bases.  Because of these reasons, I think it's more than reasonable to say that Pierre would be a better #2 hitter for us than Iguchi. 

Thats your personal opinion. I see a #2 hitter who can control his bat to move the leadoff man onwards, while still being able to hit for some power if needed. I like having Gooch in the two hole, and I think that he would be superior to Pierre hitting there.

[SSH2005]

Thats your personal opinion.  I see a #2 hitter who can control his bat to move the leadoff man onwards, while still being able to hit for some power if needed.  I like having Gooch in the two hole, and I think that he would be superior to Pierre hitting there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's not my personal opinion. Pierre strikes out less, he's faster, he steals more bases, and he's a better bunter. Those are all facts.

 

Also, Pierre is a left-handed bat so his natural pull swing would be towards the right side of the infield allowing Podsednik to move from second to third with ease.

 

Iguchi wants to hit homeruns. He also strikes out a lot. He is more suited to be batting sixth in the lineup.

Edited November 20, 2005 by SSH2005

[Felix]

That's not my personal opinion.  Pierre strikes out less, he's faster, he steals more bases, and he's a better bunter.  Those are all facts. 

 

Also, Pierre is a left-handed bat so his natural pull swing would be towards the right side of the infield allowing Podsednik to move from second to third with ease.

 

Iguchi wants to hit homeruns.  He also strikes out a lot.  He is more suited to be batting sixth in the lineup.

Its your personal opinion that Pierre would be better than Iguchi hitting in the #2 hole. And its mine that I would rather Iguchi there.

[SSH2005]

Its your personal opinion that Pierre would be better than Iguchi hitting in the #2 hole.  And its mine that I would rather Iguchi there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay. Well, let me ask you this. If Iguchi truly has the potential to hit 25+ homeruns like he himself has stated, why waste that potential batting him in the 2-hole where he will often be sacrificing himself to move over Podsednik? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to put Iguchi in the sixth spot in the order where he can swing away and be more of a RBI producer? Wouldn't it make more sense to put the better bunter, better speed and stolen base threat, and the guy with barely any power in the 2-hole to move Podsednik over? Why waste the guy with the 25+ homer potential to move over Podsednik most of the time?

Edited November 20, 2005 by SSH2005

[Felix]

Okay.  Well, let me ask you this.  If Iguchi truly has the potential to hit 25+ homeruns like he himself has stated, why waste that potential batting him in the 2-hole where he will often be sacrificing himself to move over Podsednik?  Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to put Iguchi in the sixth spot in the order where he can swing away and be more of a RBI producer?

If you desperatly needed someone on your lineup to hit 25+ homeruns, then yes, it would make sense to put him further down in the order. However, we don't need that. Iguchi had a great year last year out of the #2 spot, and I would rather that than add another Scott Podsednik along with a small power increase from Gooch.

 

Let me ask you this. Would you pay Scott Podsednik whatever Pierre's contract is?

[SSH2005]

If you desperatly needed someone on your lineup to hit 25+ homeruns, then yes, it would make sense to put him further down in the order.  However, we don't need that.  Iguchi had a great year last year out of the #2 spot, and I would rather that than add another Scott Podsednik along with a small power increase from Gooch.

 

Let me ask you this.  Would you pay Scott Podsednik whatever Pierre's contract is?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So we should stunt Iguchi's true offensive production when there is probably a better option available to bat second for us? If we lose Konerko, we will likely need that production. It just doesn't seem very wise to me.

 

Pierre will earn more money than Podsednik because he has been better over his career and has had more good seasons than Podsednik. I really don't understand what Pierre's contract has to do with Podsednik's contract. Pierre got paid more than Podsednik for a reason. I would take both players, even if Pierre makes twice as much as Podsednik.

[Felix]

So we should stunt Iguchi's true offensive production when there is probably a better option available to bat second for us?  If we lose Konerko, we will likely need that production.  It just doesn't seem very wise to me.

Its not really stunting his growth. I believe Iguchi can be a lesser vesion of Carlos Beltran, basically good at most offensive catergories. And yes, I believe he can do this out of the #2 spot in the lineup. Iguchi's power numbers were down last year because he was adapting to the different pitching here in the MLB. In 2006, his power numbers will likely go up as he becomes more comfertable in the #2 spot and in the MLB.

 

Pierre will earn more money than Podsednik because he has been better over his career and has had more good seasons than Podsednik.  I really don't understand what Pierre's contract has to do with Podsednik's contract.  Pierre got paid more than Podsednik for a reason.  I would take both players, even if Pierre makes twice as much as Podsednik.

His contract has nothing to do with Podsednik. I only point out his contract because he is basically the same player as Podsednik, except with a worse arm, and us acquiring him would also acquire his contract.

[YASNY]

Both of you guys have made good points in this discussion. But you can't look at this as a Rowand vs. Pierre situation. There are a lot of variables still to be determined if we do go get Pierre. First, what do we give up to get him. Next, assuming we then move Aaron, what do we get in return for him. It's a matter of how things come together over the off season. Also, if Podsednik gets hurt we'd have Pierre to step into the lead off spot. I'm not crazy about the idea of trading Rowand. I've been supporting him since '03. But knowing Pierre's ability to handle the bat and how Ozzie likes to play the game, I can see why Ozzie would prefer Pierre in the lineup over Rowand. You also have to consider that Ozzie watched Pierre play defense for a full season and has seen Aaron for two. So he knows what each one brings and what their weaknesses are. If Ozzie and Kenny think this team will be better with Pierre in CF than with Rowand, considering any other moves that are made, then I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

[Soxpranos]

If you desperatly needed someone on your lineup to hit 25+ homeruns, then yes, it would make sense to put him further down in the order.  However, we don't need that.  Iguchi had a great year last year out of the #2 spot, and I would rather that than add another Scott Podsednik along with a small power increase from Gooch.

 

Let me ask you this.  Would you pay Scott Podsednik whatever Pierre's contract is?

 

What was all the talk about slugging percentage with Aaron? Iguchi will be a better hitter than Aaron is deeper in the line up. Pierre behind Pods will no doubt be a deadly 1-2 punch. No to metion having Iguchi batting 6th , a guy with pop and that can actually bent when needed to. Not a tough choice there. All specualtion till it happends, if it ever happends. Its not a opinion, just a fact that Iguchi is a better offensive threat than Rowand.

[Soxpranos]

Thank God we have a guy named Ozzie as the manager that wants Pierre at the 2 hole rather than a guy named felix that is just in love with Rowand.

[Felix]

What was all the talk about slugging percentage with Aaron? Iguchi will be a better hitter than Aaron is deeper in the line up.  Pierre behind Pods will no doubt be a deadly 1-2 punch. No to metion having Iguchi batting 6th , a guy with pop and that can actually bent when needed to.  Not a tough choice there.  All specualtion till it happends, if it ever happends. Its not a opinion, just a fact that Iguchi is a better offensive threat than Rowand.

I wasn't talking about slugging percentage, I was talking about OPS, which is a players on base percentage plus slugging percentage. A good offensive player has a high OPS, because they can both get on base and hit for some sort of power.

 

Pierre and Pods would be a "1-2 punch" that opponents could laugh at. Neither can hit lefties, and neither are that talented with the bat. If they do get on, then yes, they can run, but they can also get thrown out a hell of a lot, which is not a good thing to have happen when the meat of your order is coming up.

 

Pierre doesn't even hit second in the order. How do we know how he will react to it? Will he like having to sacrifice AB's for the good of the team? These are things we don't know, and increase the risk value in trading for a pricey and crap defensive player.

 

And I'm not comparing Iguchi and Rowand.

 

Thank God we have a guy named Ozzie as the manager that wants Pierre at the 2 hole rather than a guy named felix that is just in love with Rowand.

You obviously don't read my posts before posting. I have stated many times in the past that if we trade Rowand, I'd be fine with it, as long as it adds a big bat. Does Pierre count as a big bat in your opinion? If so, see a doctor.

Also, did a guy with a Rowand jersey touch you or something when you were younger? Why do you have so much hate for him?

[Soxpranos]

I wasn't talking about slugging percentage, I was talking about OPS, which is a players on base percentage plus slugging percentage.  A good offensive player has a high OPS, because they can both get on base and hit for some sort of power.

 

Pierre and Pods would be a "1-2 punch" that opponents could laugh at.  Neither can hit lefties, and neither are that talented with the bat.  If they do get on, then yes, they can run, but they can also get thrown out a hell of a lot, which is not a good thing to have happen when the meat of your order is coming up.

 

Pierre doesn't even hit second in the order.  How do we know how he will react to it?  Will he like having to sacrifice AB's for the good of the team?  These are things we don't know, and increase the risk value in trading for a pricey and crap defensive player.

 

And I'm not comparing Iguchi and Rowand.

You obviously don't read my posts before posting.  I have stated many times in the past that if we trade Rowand, I'd be fine with it, as long as it adds a big bat.  Does Pierre count as a big bat in your opinion?  If so, see a doctor.

Also, did a guy with a Rowand jersey touch you or something when you were younger?  Why do you have so much hate for him?

 

 

What made u think Iguchi would preform like he did here, he never batted 2nd in Japan. Good players respond to whatever situation they are put in, thats why Aaron is not great or will ever be. Dont hate Aaron, its just guys like you that think hes the best CF in the game which is false. Im not the one with the Aaron pictures all over my signature, im sure you would want him to touch you?

Edited November 20, 2005 by Soxpranos

[Felix]

Both of you guys have made good points in this discussion.  But you can't look at this as a Rowand vs. Pierre situation.  There are a lot of variables still to be determined if we do go get Pierre.  First, what do we give up to get him.  Next, assuming we then move Aaron, what do we get in return for him.  It's a matter of how things come together over the off season.  Also, if Podsednik gets hurt we'd have Pierre to step into the lead off spot.  I'm not crazy about the idea of trading Rowand.  I've been supporting him since '03.  But knowing Pierre's ability to handle the bat and how Ozzie likes to play the game, I can see why Ozzie would prefer Pierre in the lineup over Rowand.  You also have to consider that Ozzie watched Pierre play defense for a full season and has seen Aaron for two.  So he knows what each one brings and what their weaknesses are.  If Ozzie and Kenny think this team will be better with Pierre in CF than with Rowand, considering any other moves that are made, then I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

In my mind, thats the equivalent of trading Rowand for a 7th starter. I don't see the point to trade a quality player for people who would step up if a key player got hurt. Yes, if Pods got hurt, we could then have Pierre lead off, but I wouldn't really complain if Ozuna led off and we still had Rowand in center.

 

And I do trust Ozzie and Kenny to an extent. I wasn't too thrilled about the Podsednik trade last year, and they proved me wrong rather quickly, but I think there is a fine balance to maintain with a lineup's power and speed. I think that if you trade too many better offensive players for those who get 50 steals, your team will not be successful. Last year, it looked like Kenny and Ozzie had the right balance, and changing it now, after it proved to be quite successful, worries me the most.

[Felix]

What made u think Iguchi would preform like he did here, he never batted 2nd in Japan. Good players respond to whatever situation they are put in, thats why Aaron is not  great or will ever be. Dont hate Aaron, its just guys like you that think hes the best CF in the game which is false.  Im not the one with the Aaron pictures all over my signature, im sure you would want him to touch you?

I dont think you have ever said a single positive thing about him.. I mean, you don't even think he's a good defensive player. You are likely the only one I have ever talked with that thought that. Rowand is not the best CF in the game, but he's in the second group of good CF's, as someone said earlier in this thread. If A-Row's offense would return to 2004, and his defense maintained its high level, he would be one of, if not the, best CF's in the game.

 

And I didn't think that Iguchi would perform like he did in the #2 spot. I thought he might struggle, but he proved me wrong. Now that he already has a years of experience in the MLB and in the #2 spot specifically, I think he can improve upon last year's success.

[Soxpranos]

In my mind, thats the equivalent of trading Rowand for a 7th starter.  I don't see the point to trade a quality player for people who would step up if a key player got hurt.  Yes, if Pods got hurt, we could then have Pierre lead off, but I wouldn't really complain if Ozuna led off and we still had Rowand in center.

 

And I do trust Ozzie and Kenny to an extent.  I wasn't too thrilled about the Podsednik trade last year, and they proved me wrong rather quickly, but I think there is a fine balance to maintain with a lineup's power and speed.  I think that if you trade too many better offensive players for those who get 50 steals, your team will not be successful.  Last year, it looked like Kenny and Ozzie had the right balance, and changing it now, after it proved to be quite successful, worries me the most.

 

The sad think about it, is that Aaron is not a good offensive player. Uribe I believe had more rbi than him or was tied, batting 9th. Have you ever thought that Aarons 23 homer season was a fluke and this is the Aaron that he will always be, not the other way around? I will be glad to see this come to a resolution soon, to see what the Sox intend on actually doing.