JUAN PIERRE

[RockRaines]

My fault, I didnt think anyone would argue Juan in rf.  I apologize.

[timotime]

Scouts say he his  arm doesnt exist? Who cant make a deep catch playing 380 plus feet back?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

you must have missed all the games in that sweet series against the yanks at yankee stadium. that series really proved his worth. rowand is a good CF, why do you think he's so bad? who is your top 6?

[beck72]

Your realize that speed means nothing if you can't get good jumps, right?

I don't know where you get your scouting report on Pierre's poor defense. But I'll take ESPN's view, after the 2004 season:

"His defense remains a huge plus at spacious Pro Player Stadium. His range allowed the Marlins to get by with Miguel Cabrera and Jeff Conine flanking him for the first four months. Pierre's arm probably precludes him from Gold Glove consideration, but he never gives up on balls in the gap and makes his share of highlight catches. His resemblance to a young Mickey Rivers remains eerie."

[nitetrain8601]

I don't know where you get your scouting report on Pierre's poor defense. But I'll take ESPN's view, after the 2004 season:

"His defense remains a huge plus at spacious Pro Player Stadium. His range allowed the Marlins to get by with Miguel Cabrera and Jeff Conine flanking him for the first four months. Pierre's arm probably precludes him from Gold Glove consideration, but he never gives up on balls in the gap and makes his share of highlight catches. His resemblance to a young Mickey Rivers remains eerie."

 

Exactly. It's laughable how people say his defense sucks or is considerably worse than Rowand's.

[nitetrain8601]

I dream of Scott Podsednik leading off a game with a single. Then Juan Pierre trying to bunt him over and in the process getting a INF single while he's at it. To cap it off, with no outs, they cause the pitcher so much stress after a double steal and Thome/Dye/Thomas drive them both in with one or two outs.

[Guest JimH]

I don't know where you get your scouting report on Pierre's poor defense. But I'll take ESPN's view, after the 2004 season:

"His defense remains a huge plus at spacious Pro Player Stadium. His range allowed the Marlins to get by with Miguel Cabrera and Jeff Conine flanking him for the first four months. Pierre's arm probably precludes him from Gold Glove consideration, but he never gives up on balls in the gap and makes his share of highlight catches. His resemblance to a young Mickey Rivers remains eerie."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I can't say I've seen this guy play as much as Rowand but I've noticed he does have great range, at least in the games I've seen.

[nitetrain8601]

I can't say I've seen this guy play as much as Rowand but I've noticed he does have great range, at least in the games I've seen.

 

Blasphemy

[beck72]

I can't say I've seen this guy play as much as Rowand but I've noticed he does have great range, at least in the games I've seen.

If he's got above average range, he'd be fine in the Cell.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

I dream of Scott Podsednik leading off a game with a single. Then Juan Pierre trying to bunt him over and in the process getting a INF single while he's at it. To cap it off, with no outs, they cause the pitcher so much stress after a double steal and Thome/Dye/Thomas drive them both in with one or two outs.

 

I dream of Pods on first and Pierre at the plate. Ozzie calls the old run & bunt play. Pods breaks for second, the SS moves over to cover, Pierre bunts down the 3B line, the third baseman runs in to field the bunt, nobody is covering third and Pods keeps running and makes third base. The play at first is very close....

 

Picture that scenario leading off games for the 2006 Sox. The rest of the lineup is same as last year with the exception of Tadahito batting fifth instead of Carl.

[beck72]

I dream of Scott Podsednik leading off a game with a single. Then Juan Pierre trying to bunt him over and in the process getting a INF single while he's at it. To cap it off, with no outs, they cause the pitcher so much stress after a double steal and Thome/Dye/Thomas drive them both in with one or two outs.

I remember ESPN ranking all MLB players in various categories. IIRC, Pierre was given the nod as the best bunter. Not to mention he's always among the league leaders in IF hits.

 

With a guy like Pierre, the sox and us fans wouldn't have to worry every time Pods stole a base that he'd come up grabbing his hamstring.

[Guest JimH]

Not that this means anything (at all) but here is what Scott Merkin of the White Sox website has to say:

 

"I believe Konerko will be back at first base. I also think the White Sox will add some left-handed power to the lineup and try to bring a more natural speed player into the second spot of the order, with Tadahito Iguchi moving down to sixth or seventh, as Guillen stated after his Manager of the Year press conference. Those changes could mean one of the starting pitchers being dealt or even one of the White Sox outfielders moving, especially with the abundance of young talent they have at this position in the Minor Leagues. This group will return as strong as it was in 2005, though. That's a certainty."

[beck72]

Not that this means anything (at all) but here is what Scott Merkin of the White Sox website has to say:

 

"I believe Konerko will be back at first base. I also think the White Sox will add some left-handed power to the lineup and try to bring a more natural speed player into the second spot of the order, with Tadahito Iguchi moving down to sixth or seventh, as Guillen stated after his Manager of the Year press conference. Those changes could mean one of the starting pitchers being dealt or even one of the White Sox outfielders moving, especially with the abundance of young talent they have at this position in the Minor Leagues. This group will return as strong as it was in 2005, though. That's a certainty."

 

My thoughts exactly. Esp as Ozzie is the one who called for more speed and a #2 hitter. The only SP being dealt would be El Duque. And Rowand makes the most sense, with him having the most trade value, and with 2 young CFers [young and Anderson] nearly ready to replace him.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Exactly. It's laughable how people say his defense sucks or is considerably worse than Rowand's.

ESPN also thinks Derek Jeter is the best defensive shortstop in the history of the game.

[nitetrain8601]

ESPN also thinks Derek Jeter is the best defensive shortstop in the history of the game.

 

What does ESPN have to do with the conversation?

[Gene Honda Civic]

What does ESPN have to do with the conversation?

The quote you replied to cited ESPN saying Pierre was a great defender.

[CWSGuy406]

Exactly. It's laughable how people say his defense sucks or is considerably worse than Rowand's.

 

Laughable? Compare Rowand's ZR, Rate 2, and Defensive Win Shares to Pierre's -- all are significantly better in Rowand's favor. Significantly.

 

But of course, how can I argue with the ESPN Scouting Report?

 

Wite -- I don't understand your comment about Milton Bradley. I've heard that he's one of the better outfielders (defensively) in baseball. His ZR is similar to Pierre's, and he rated well in Tango's Defensive Scouting Report.

 

Jim -- pesky offense of last year? They were certainly pesky in the playoffs (moreso because of the HR than because of the SB), but in the regular season, they ranked 9th in runs scored.

 

I think the plan should be to attempt to maintain your production from 1B/RF spot(Delgado? Thome? Giles? All three, if healthy -- I'd argue -- will produce better than Konerko will next year), while substantially improving the offense from your DH spot (a healthy Thomas? a healthy Durazo? something else?).

 

I don't expect our offense to be great, at least not next year. There's not enough money to spread around to make it 'great'. But I think it can improve to 5th or 6th in the AL in runs scored, just with a move or two. Ideally, you can resign Konerko and get Thome, but I don't know if that's exactly reasonable, either...

Edited November 22, 2005 by CWSGuy406

[nitetrain8601]

The quote you replied to cited ESPN saying Pierre was a great defender.

 

My thoughts aren't based off ESPN's. His defense is good. Some people are so in love with Rowand that they think he demands a Delgado in a trade back when in reality, Rowand isn't that good. I'd say Pierre is a better overall ballplayer while being a little worse at defense, but still good enough. I'll take the better, more complete ballplayer over Rowand who just plays the wall close. Pierre could do that too and I bet his ZR would jump up like crazy.

[3E8]

My thoughts aren't based off ESPN's. His defense is good. Some people are so in love with Rowand that they think he demands a Delgado in a trade back when in reality, Rowand isn't that good. I'd say Pierre is a better overall ballplayer while being a little worse at defense, but still good enough. I'll take the better, more complete ballplayer over Rowand who just plays the wall close. Pierre could do that too and I bet his ZR would jump up like crazy.

You can argue that if Rowand plays so far back, many balls drop in his 'zone' to short center so that would hurt his ZR. Pierre could play wherever and his ZR wouldn't be on par with Rowand's.

[Guest JimH]

Jim -- pesky offense of last year?  They were certainly pesky in the playoffs (moreso because of the HR than because of the SB), but in the regular season, they ranked 9th in runs scored. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Keith I never said they had a pesky offense last year. I said a pesky offense is a winning formula, when combined with other elements. Their offense frequently struggled last year, it was well documented on this site. And since idiot White Sox management determined the hitting coach won't be fired it must have been the talent level.

 

Guillen believes their offense will be better with more speed at the top of the lineup and by dropping Iguchi down lower in the order. I'm simply commenting on what I believe they may do based on Guillen's comments.

[Rowand44]

Keith I never said they had a pesky offense last year.  I said a pesky offense is a winning formula, when combined with other elements.  Their offense frequently struggled last year, it was well documented on this site.  And since idiot White Sox management determined the hitting coach won't be fired it must have been the talent level.

 

Guillen believes their offense will be better with more speed at the top of the lineup and by dropping Iguchi down lower in the order.  I'm simply commenting on what I believe they may do based on Guillen's comments.

Agreed. Also, right now I'm pretty much go along with everything they do this offseason and not complain about anything. Let Kenny and Ozzie put their type of team together, it seemed to work last year.

[CWSGuy406]

Keith I never said they had a pesky offense last year.  I said a pesky offense is a winning formula, when combined with other elements.  Their offense frequently struggled last year, it was well documented on this site.  And since idiot White Sox management determined the hitting coach won't be fired it must have been the talent level.

 

Guillen believes their offense will be better with more speed at the top of the lineup and by dropping Iguchi down lower in the order.  I'm simply commenting on what I believe they may do based on Guillen's comments.

 

Fair enough.

 

I guess I disagree with Ozzie's thoughts, though I doubt Ozzie is the be all, end all. I'm sure Kenny realizes that this team still needs to be capable of hitting 200+ homers, except this year, with a better OBP (that's why I like Giles so much).

 

He/They've earned my trust for another year or two. I couldn't say that going into last offseason, but now I can.

[Gene Honda Civic]

I'll take the better, more complete ballplayer over Rowand who just plays the wall close.

This quote just proves you don't know what you're talking about.

 

Rowand played shallower than any CFer in the history of USCF. I noted he was playing about 5 feet farther in this year as early as the second week of the season. It's the reason he was much better defensively this year. Before he was going back and waiting under the ball at the wall. When he moved closer, he was still able to get back on the ball, but was able to cover far more ground in front of him and in the gaps. But yeah, he just played farter back so nothing got over his head. :rolly:

 

I value Rowand's defense, yes, but I don't think he's super human. I may be one of his biggest critics when it comes to his play at the plate. I have a very realistic view of his value. It varies from team to team. To the Yankees, he has less value than say Torri Hunter, but to the Fish, he has more. Why? salary. It's simple. The Marlins are looking to dump payroll. But a Rowand for Pierre trade saves them a minimal amount. Rowand+Marte+specs for Delgado unloads tons of money.

 

I'm all for trading Rowand. 1) he's in demand. 2) Because he's locked up on the cheap, he's never likely to have a higher value. 3) there appears to be a replacement in Brian N Anderson waiting in the wings. 4) The Sox need to get value out of their system.

 

Look, Remember the '01-02 Twins. They had a ton of OFers on the cusp of the Majors. Kielty, Mohr, Kubel, Restovich, Ford. They had Jones and Hunter locked up... They appeared to be in a position to acquire a few arms and make a real run at the title. Instead they hung onto those chips for too long, and found that they didn't have much value anymore. They would be in a much different position if they were looking to trade some of those guys at the beginning of '01 instead of playing is close to the vest and holding on to them all.

 

You don't trade from your strength, to acquire more of the same. With Rowand, Anderson, Young, and even Podsednik and Owens to an extent. We have an abundance of speedy centerfield types. What we don't have is a left handed bat with power anywhere close to being ready to contribute on the major league level. So you package one of those 5 names with some pitching and you find that on the open market.

 

Pierre for Rowand at best is trading a quater for 2 dimes, a nickel, and a penny.

[qwerty]

This quote just proves you don't know what you're talking about.

 

Rowand played shallower than any CFer in the history of USCF. I noted he was playing about 5 feet farther in this year as early as the second week of the season. It's the reason he was much better defensively this year. Before he was going back and waiting under the ball at the wall. When he moved closer, he was still able to get back on the ball, but was able to cover far more ground in front of him and in the gaps. But yeah, he just played farter back so nothing got over his head. :rolly:

 

I value Rowand's defense, yes, but I don't think he's super human. I may be one of his biggest critics when it comes to his play at the plate. I have a very realistic view of his value. It varies from team to team. To the Yankees, he has less value than say Torri Hunter, but to the Fish, he has more. Why? salary. It's simple. The Marlins are looking to dump payroll. But a Rowand for Pierre trade saves them a minimal amount. Rowand+Marte+specs for Delgado unloads tons of money.

 

I'm all for trading Rowand. 1) he's in demand. 2) Because he's locked up on the cheap, he's never likely to have a higher value. 3) there appears to be a replacement in Brian N Anderson waiting in the wings. 4) The Sox need to get value out of their system.

 

Look, Remember the '01-02 Twins. They had a ton of OFers on the cusp of the Majors. Kielty, Mohr, Kubel, Restovich, Ford. They had Jones and Hunter locked up... They appeared to be in a position to acquire a few arms and make a real run at the title. Instead they hung onto those chips for too long, and found that they didn't have much value anymore. They would be in a much different position if they were looking to trade some of those guys at the beginning of '01 instead of playing is close to the vest and holding on to them all.

 

You don't trade from your strength, to acquire more of the same. With Rowand, Anderson, Young, and even Podsednik and Owens to an extent. We have an abundance of speedy centerfield types. What we don't have is a left handed bat with power anywhere close to being ready to contribute on the major league level. So you package one of those 5 names with some pitching and you find that on the open market.

 

Pierre for Rowand at best is trading a quater for 2 dimes, a nickel, and a penny.

 

I thought you were not gonna talk about this topic much? A thread should never be 22 pages about juan pierre unless we acquire him.

[Rowand44]

I thought you were not gonna talk about this topic much? A thread should never be 22 pages about juan pierre unless we acquire him.

Thanks for contributing to the thread.

[qwerty]

Thanks for contributing to the thread.

 

I know, i made it worse.

 

Ooooooooops i did it again...