JUAN PIERRE

[CWSGuy406]

http://www.protrade.com/insight/InsightArt...utfieldArm.html

 

Scroll to the bottom for pierre.

 

Qwerty, I'm not even worrying about their arms. I doubt either of their arms are very good -- Rowand has a strong arm, just no accuracy (like you said, he's killed a lot of worms this year, winding up and throwing the ball right into the ground).

 

But it seems like people are thinking that because Pierre is faster, he's going to get to more balls. That isn't true. I can't find a defensive stat that puts Pierre as the better defender. Rowand leads in ZR (.939 to .882), Rate 2 (106 to 97), defensive Win Shares (7.6 to 2.9 -- that's a huge lead). I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'd put money on Rowand having a better UZR (which assigns a run value to defense, ala +5, -10) than Pierre, too.

 

I wouldn't do Rowand for Pierre straight up, much less Rowand and Marte for Pierre. That second trade is awful. I'll take Podsednik and his salary that's barely over $1 million, along with the fact that he'll be playing left field, over Pierre at a much inflated salary, and average defense.

Edited November 19, 2005 by CWSGuy406

[Chisoxfn]

Scouts say he his  arm doesnt exist? Who cant make a deep catch playing 380 plus feet back?

Lol, Rowand's arm wasn't accurate, but for a long time he had a "plus" arm when he was down in the minors and arm strenght wise his arm is still above average in CF.

 

Oh and he is easily one of the 6 best CF'ers in the game. Ask anyone in baseball and they'll tell you that and yes, I do know people in the baseball world.

[Chisoxfn]

Sure it would.

 

You'd be replacing Rowand with Pierre.  Pierre is worse (I'm not sure how much worse, but it's fairly substantial) defensively than Rowand is.

 

So, you're losing runs on defense.  And, I don't see a whole lot of offense improvement from Pierre...  He might have the edge, but I think he's giving it right back 'cause he isn't anywhere near the defender that Rowand is.

 

But hey -- we'll have some more stolen bases.  So that's good.

 

Beck, you go ahead and find me a statistic that shows Pierre being a better defender than Rowand.  Please, do so.

Name six better defensive centerfielders.

Hey Keith, I think he was saying that if they made this trade these would be assumptions the Sox made because Ozzie feels this way. I don't think he said Pierre is better than Rowand.

[Chisoxfn]

Qwerty, I'm not even worrying about their arms.  I doubt either of their arms are very good -- Rowand has a strong arm, just no accuracy (like you said, he's killed a lot of worms this year, winding up and throwing the ball right into the ground).

 

But it seems like people are thinking that because Pierre is faster, he's going to get to more balls.  That isn't true.  I can't find a defensive stat that puts Pierre as the better defender.  Rowand leads in ZR (.939 to .882), Rate 2 (106 to 97), defensive Win Shares (7.6 to 2.9 -- that's a huge lead).  I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'd put money on Rowand having a better UZR (which assigns a run value to defense, ala +5, -10) than Pierre, too.

 

I wouldn't do Rowand for Pierre straight up, much less Rowand and Marte for Pierre.  That second trade is awful.  I'll take Podsednik and his salary that's barely over $1 million, along with the fact that he'll be playing left field, over Pierre at a much inflated salary, and average defense.

If the Sox dealt Rowand for Pierre, either it would have to be part of a larger package getting the Sox Delgado or someone else they want or it would have to be a Marte and maybe a prospect (I don't know if I'd even give up a prospect) for Pierre.

 

Than you use Rowand in another trade (say a Jim Thome deal) as a centerpiece. Of course the Sox could be crazy and use Pierre or Pods as there DH and keep Rowand in CF. Hey, you never know.

[Guest JimH]

That fancy chart by Gabriel Desjardins is nice and all, but it's still not a hard and fast judgement. There are so many things it doesn't take into account.

 

That said, there is no question Juan Pierre's arm isn't as strong as Rowand's. Many on this board said Rowand's arm was awful this year, so really, what's the difference?

 

One thing which is clear, to me anyways, is Pierre is a better offensive threat than Rowand overall. More stolen bases, better track record on batting average, and if Guillen likes him you can bet he does the little things to help a team win. This is not a knock on Rowand but if you bring in Juan Pierre it lets you bring Brian Anderson into the mix.

 

How, you ask?

 

Anderson and Rowand are the same type of player, Anderson and Pierre are not. Anderson can sub for Podsednik and Pierre vs. tough lefthanders, Anderson can defensively substitute for Pierre or Podsednik if needed ... and it gives Guillen even more flexibility. Before someone goes on a randarrant telling me this is no way to develop Brian Anderson, in principle I agree. Yet, KW says Anderson is ready, which leads me as a fan to believe they (Sox mgmt.) believe there's nothing left for Anderson to accomplish in the minors.

 

I am not arguing the point either way, but rather trying to forecast what they'll do, why, and what their rationale is.

 

I do share the concern about having two below average arms in the OF though. I like Juan Pierre a lot and have seen him play a lot, he covers the ground quite well. His routes are good but I wouldn't say great ... nor would I say Rowand's routes are always great but Pierre IMO is a slight (not dramatic) downgrade defensively from Rowand.

 

What Juan Pierre would bring to the top of the White Sox order, though ... me likey.

[GreatScott82]

No thank you- why tamper with a championship type product. I love our outfield as is. And why are we stressing for more speed? We need more power. If I were KW I would try my heart out to re-sign Konerko first. Then starting thinking about Thome. After that everything is okely-dokely-doo! Why trade Rowand (an awesome defensive oufielder who can hit for a decent average, has some power and some speed) for more speed, a defensive downgrade, and less power? Makes no sense to me?! I'm going to have to pull a Hawk and say "Where would he play?" Iguchi is fine at #2. Enough said. This is what I want as our '06 starting lineup:

1. Pods LF

2. Gooch 2B

3. Dye RF

4. Pauly 1B

5. Thome DH

6. Rowand CF

7. A.J. C

8. Crede 3B

9. Uribe SS

 

Not many changes nessecarry but the add of Thome makes us a bigger offensive threat and we still have pleanty of speed!

[Felix]

I'll Take Pierre over Rowand any day. Give me the offense he provides along with making the opposing pitcher go out of his game when hes on the pads. Has way more speed than Rowand (doesnt play 385ft away from the plate) and will make the catches out there.

Rowand's crappy offensive season last year was better than Pierre's career numbers, but if you really think Pierre is better, thats ok.

[Guest JimH]

No thank you- why tamper with a championship type product. I love our outfield as is. And why are we stressing for more speed? We need more power. If I were KW I would try my heart out to re-sign Konerko first. Then starting thinking about Thome. After that everything is okely-dokely-doo! Why trade Rowand (an awesome defensive oufielder who can hit for a decent average, has some power and some speed) for more speed, a defensive downgrade, and less power? Makes no sense to me?! I'm going to have to pull a Hawk and say "Where would he play?" Iguchi is fine at #2. Enough said.

Not many changes nessecarry but the add of Thome makes us a bigger offensive threat and we still have pleanty of speed!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I completely see what you're saying, but most of this discussion is based on what came out of Guillen's mouth. He wants more speed at the top of the lineup and he wants Iguchi down further in the order.

 

So, based on what he's saying, in his opinion Pierre is a fit. I think Guillen has definitely earned the benefit of the doubt.

[Rowand44]

Rowand's crappy offensive season last year was better than Pierre's career numbers, but if you really think Pierre is better, thats ok.

They're different types of players so it's kind of ridiculous to compare their offensive numbers. Just cause you have more power doesn't make you a better offensive player. IMO Juan is a bigger threat and better player offensively then Aaron is. The thing I'm worried about is Juan's defense compared to Aaron's, I want to see Pierre play D before I make a judgement on his defense as I don't recall him playing defense all that much.

Edited November 19, 2005 by Rowand44

[SSH2005]

Why isn't Pods a long term option at the top of the order? And why in the world would Pierre be more of an option than him?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe it's because Pierre has had more good seasons, has better career numbers, and is a year and a half younger than Podsednik?

 

Podsednik's career line: .279 .345 .385

Pierre's career line: .305 .355 .375

[beck72]

Sure it would.

 

You'd be replacing Rowand with Pierre.  Pierre is worse (I'm not sure how much worse, but it's fairly substantial) defensively than Rowand is.

 

So, you're losing runs on defense.  And, I don't see a whole lot of offense improvement from Pierre...  He might have the edge, but I think he's giving it right back 'cause he isn't anywhere near the defender that Rowand is.

 

But hey -- we'll have some more stolen bases.  So that's good.

 

Beck, you go ahead and find me a statistic that shows Pierre being a better defender than Rowand.  Please, do so.

Name six better defensive centerfielders.

 

What I said is that if Pierre does replace Rowand, Ozzie must think that it wouldn't be a defensive downgrade [maybe a slight, but not a big difference]. If Pierre can get to more balls than Rowand--very possible, no matter how good Arow's jumps are, which directly leads to more outs--having a weaker arm isn't the be all end all. Pods had the rep about not getting good jumps and reads on balls. Pierre just has a rep for having a weak arm.

 

But again, Ozzie knows all about Pierre and what he would bring to the sox. Seeing how Ozzie has been all about defense, I'd find it hard to believe he'd add a much weaker outfielder to CF. I'm not going to defend Pierre because I don't know him. But if he's traded for, my money says he'll be fine in Cf for the sox.

[qwerty]

What I said is that if Pierre does replace Rowand, Ozzie must think that it wouldn't be a defensive downgrade [maybe a slight, but not a big difference]. If Pierre can get to more balls than Rowand--very possible, no matter how good Arow's jumps are, which directly leads to more outs--having a weaker arm isn't the be all end all. Pods had the rep about not getting good jumps and reads on balls. Pierre just has a rep for having a weak arm.

 

But again, Ozzie knows all about Pierre and what he would bring to the sox. Seeing how Ozzie has been all about defense, I'd find it hard to believe he'd add a much weaker outfielder to CF. I'm not going to defend Pierre because I don't know him. But if he's traded for, my money says he'll be fine in Cf for the sox.

 

Pierre is not half the fielder rowand is so you can throw that theory out the window. Like cwsguy said there basically isn't defensive statistic avaliable that shows they are comparable defenders.

 

All in all rowand> pierre... but only slightly imo.

[beck72]

Pierre is not half the fielder rowand is so you can throw that theory out the window. Like cwsguy said there basically isn't defensive statistic avaliable that shows they are comparable defenders.

 

All in all rowand> pierre... but only slightly imo.

 

If we're talking just defense, sure. But the total package and what another #2 hitter and leadoff guy and a career .300 hitter could bring to the sox with his speed, Pierre could add a lot to the sox. Esp given the sox have Crede, and Uribe as similar hitters to Rowand

[Gene Honda Civic]

This Pierre rumor smells like crap. It makes sense only if you've had a full-frontal lobotomy.

 

Pierre is good player. He has a nice career BA, and has good speed. But he, like podsednik, is a deceptively poor outfielder. Trading a guy who had a .900 OPS in '04 and should have won a GG in CF in '05 for a slap and tickle speedster would be retarded. Especially with Brian Anderson waiting in the wings.

 

Pierre is coming to Chicago, and he will be a good player for the Cubs, but he's not a fit here. Rowand may very well be headed to Florida too, but it won't be for another CFer. We don't need CFers. We do need LHed OPS machines who can play 1B/DH/OF, though. Sound like anyone Florida is currently shopping?

 

That's all i'm saying on the subject. I've wasted too much time already.

[Gene Honda Civic]

If we're talking just defense, sure. But the total package and what another #2 hitter and leadoff guy and a career .300 hitter could bring to the sox with his speed, Pierre could add a lot to the sox. Esp given the sox have Crede, and Uribe as similar hitters to Rowand

well it's not like Pierre isn't a similar batter to Podsednik, or Ozuna for that matter.

[SSH2005]

If we're talking just defense, sure. But the total package and what another #2 hitter and leadoff guy and a career .300 hitter could bring to the sox with his speed, Pierre could add a lot to the sox. Esp given the sox have Crede, and Uribe as similar hitters to Rowand

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is the key, in my opinion. Pierre's ability to be a great #2 hitter for us (getting on base, stealing bases, moving Pods over), which would also allow us to bat Iguchi sixth in a RBI producing role, would be better than Iguchi batting second and Rowand batting sixth. Basically, I think Pierre's offensive abilities outweigh Rowand's better defense and would mean more to a team managed by Ozzie. Ozzie wants to run a lot so he may as well be supplied with the right players to do so. It's better than seeing a guy like Uribe trying to steal and getting thrown out by a mile, when we all know it's going to happen because he's not a good base stealer.

[Felix]

This Pierre rumor smells like crap. It makes sense only if you've had a full-frontal lobotomy.

 

Pierre is good player. He has a nice career BA, and has good speed. But he, like podsednik, is a deceptively poor outfielder. Trading a guy who had a .900 OPS in '04 and should have won a GG in CF in '05 for a slap and tickle speedster would be retarded. Especially with Brian Anderson waiting in the wings.

 

Pierre is coming to Chicago, and he will be a good player for the Cubs, but he's not a fit here. Rowand may very well be headed to Florida too, but it won't be for another CFer.  We don't need CFers. We do need LHed OPS machines who can play 1B/DH/OF, though. Sound like anyone Florida is currently shopping?

 

That's all i'm saying on the subject. I've wasted too much time already.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[jphat007]

Maybe it's because Pierre has had more good seasons, has better career numbers, and is a year and a half younger than Podsednik? 

 

Podsednik's career line:  .279  .345  .385

Pierre's career line:  .305  .355  .375

 

 

That age difference means nothing. And considering Pods led our team in hitting, and was a great leadoff man for the World Champs, it makes sense to build around him at the leadoff spot instead of going out and trading your centerfielder for a guy that McKean had to move out of the leadoff spot because he was so terrible.

 

Plus, Pods is WAY WAY WAY cheaper than Pierre will probably ever be.

[SSH2005]

This Pierre rumor smells like crap. It makes sense only if you've had a full-frontal lobotomy.

 

Pierre is good player. He has a nice career BA, and has good speed. But he, like podsednik, is a deceptively poor outfielder. Trading a guy who had a .900 OPS in '04 and should have won a GG in CF in '05 for a slap and tickle speedster would be retarded. Especially with Brian Anderson waiting in the wings.

 

Pierre is coming to Chicago, and he will be a good player for the Cubs, but he's not a fit here. Rowand may very well be headed to Florida too, but it won't be for another CFer.  We don't need CFers. We do need LHed OPS machines who can play 1B/DH/OF, though. Sound like anyone Florida is currently shopping?

 

That's all i'm saying on the subject. I've wasted too much time already.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But you have to have serious questions about a guy who had a .905 OPS one season and a .736 OPS the next. Maybe pitchers figured Rowand out a bit. I noticed that almost every pitcher pounded him with sliders and offspeed stuff low and away this past season because he will swing and miss at it almost everytime. Maybe 2004 was just a career year for Rowand? Or even worse, maybe Rowand was on the juice? Whatever the case may be, you have to have some concerns about what happened to Rowand from 2004 to 2005. Pierre had a down season in 2005 but he has shown much more consistency offensively than Rowand in his previous seasons.

 

I know I wouldn't mind having Pierre batting second but it would mean that we would also need some serious thumper OPS guys at first base and DH. A high OPS guy at first base and DH, combined with Dye, would be a good enough 3-4-5 of power hitters to make up for the light-hitting Podsednik and Pierre in the outfield.

[jphat007]

This is the key, in my opinion.  Pierre's ability to be a great #2 hitter for us (getting on base, stealing bases, moving Pods over), which would also allow us to bat Iguchi sixth in a RBI producing role, would be better than Iguchi batting second and Rowand batting sixth.  Basically, I think Pierre's offensive abilities outweigh Rowand's better defense and would mean more to a team managed by Ozzie.  Ozzie wants to run a lot so he may as well be supplied with the right players to do so.  It's better than seeing a guy like Uribe trying to steal and getting thrown out by a mile, when we all know it's going to happen because he's not a good base stealer.

 

You are taking a big risk that Pierre doesn't absolutely suck again next year llike he did this year. He was horrible. Rowand at least played really good defense and knocked in runners with RISP (he was our best at it)

 

Just say no to .276 .326 .354

[SSH2005]

That age difference means nothing. And considering Pods led our team in hitting, and was a great leadoff man for the World Champs, it makes sense to build around him at the leadoff spot instead of going out and trading your centerfielder for a guy that McKean had to move out of the leadoff spot because he was so terrible.

 

Plus, Pods is WAY WAY WAY cheaper than Pierre will probably ever be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Being a year and a half older is a difference, whether you think so or not. That's another 1.5 more years than Pierre that Podsednik will be past his prime. It's not a huge difference but it is a difference.

 

Podsednik was a lot more terrible in 2004 than Pierre was this season. I guess by your logic, we should have never even traded for Podsednik.

 

Take a look at their stats. Podsednik has had 2 good seasons and 1 bad one. Pierre has had 4 good seasons and 1 down year.

 

You are taking a big risk that Pierre doesn't absolutely suck again next year llike he did this year. He was horrible. Rowand at least played really good defense and knocked in runners with RISP (he was our best at it)

 

Just say no to .276 .326 .354

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Once again, take a look at Podsednik's 2004 stats. They were much worse than Pierre's 2005 numbers.

Edited November 20, 2005 by SSH2005

[jphat007]

Being a year and a half older is a difference, whether you think so or not.  That's another 1.5 more years than Pierre that Podsednik will be past his prime.  It's not a huge difference but it is a difference.

 

Podsednik was a lot more terrible in 2004 than Pierre was this season.  I guess by your logic, we should have never even traded for Podsednik. 

 

Take a look at their stats.  Podsednik has had 2 good seasons and 1 bad one.  Pierre has had 4 good seasons and 1 down year.

LOL!  Once again, take a look at Podsednik's 2004 stats.

 

The difference is, when we traded for Pods we had no lead off hitter. We did take a gamble, but he showed that 2004 is likely the exception and not the rule. When he said he got pull heavy, he was telling the truth.

 

Now, we don't NEED a 2 hitter. We have one in Iguchi. A VERY good one. Aaron at least drove in runs when the guys were out there. He just sucked when he was counted on to start a rally. So trading Aaron for Pierre would pretty much be a wash for our need, or a little bit of a loss, and when you throw in salary, we get screwed.

 

NONNONONONONONONONONONONO

 

And Pods is perfect for what we need, even though you don't like him.

[Felix]

But you have to have serious questions about a guy who had a .905 OPS one season and a .736 OPS the next.  Maybe pitchers figured Rowand out a bit.  I noticed that almost every pitcher pounded him with sliders and offspeed stuff low and away this past season because he will swing and miss at it almost everytime.  Maybe 2004 was just a career year for Rowand?  Or even worse, maybe Rowand was on the juice?  Whatever the case may be, you have to have some concerns about what happened to Rowand from 2004 to 2005.  Pierre had a down season in 2005 but he has shown much more consistency offensively than Rowand in his previous seasons.

 

I know I wouldn't mind having Pierre batting second but it would mean that we would also need some serious thumper OPS guys at first base and DH.  A high OPS guy at first base and DH, combined with Dye, would be a good enough 3-4-5 of power hitters to make up for the light-hitting Podsednik and Pierre in the outfield.

And yet his career numbers are *still* better than Pierre's.

[SSH2005]

The difference is, when we traded for Pods we had no lead off hitter. We did take a gamble, but he showed that 2004 is likely the exception and not the rule. When he said he got pull heavy, he was telling the truth.

 

Now, we don't NEED a 2 hitter. We have one in Iguchi. A VERY good one. Aaron at least drove in runs when the guys were out there. He just sucked when he was counted on to start a rally. So trading Aaron for Pierre would pretty much be a wash for our need, or a little bit of a loss, and when you throw in salary, we get screwed.

 

NONNONONONONONONONONONONO

 

And Pods is perfect for what we need, even though you don't like him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What? I want to keep Podsednik. I want to have a 1-2 of Podsednik and Pierre.

 

And why is 2004 the exception to the rule for Podsednik but 2005 isn't for Pierre? Once again, Pierre had 4 good seasons and only 1 bad one. But Podsednik is more consistent because he had 2 good seasons and 1 bad one? That kind of logic doesn't make much sense.

 

Apparently, the Sox want to move Iguchi down to a more RBI producing role. Ozzie also likes to run a lot. That's why this move would make some sense.

 

Also, I never said I wanted to traded Rowand for Pierre. I think trading Marte for Pierre would make more sense because the Marlins have always had interest in him. Then I could see packaging Rowand with some prospects for a #3 lefty hitter.

[3E8]

Rowand knocked in runners with RISP (he was our best at it)

No, it was Carl Everett.