JUAN PIERRE

[Soxpranos]

Wont Aaron demand a higher salary later since he's a stellar defender? Overall , I take Pierre, he brings more to the plate and his speed kills on defense and offense. Guys dont get me wrong, I root for Aaron as hard as anyone, but to say he is the top CF in the game is just not correct. Pierre makes the Sox better than with Rowand. I want our team to keep winning championships , bottom line.

Edited November 20, 2005 by Soxpranos

[Soxpranos]

I lied... just hoping soxpranos would eventually stop.

 

I just had some caffeine, I will still be here qwerty...

Edited November 20, 2005 by Soxpranos

[Chisoxfn]

Im sure they will tell you that they would have Pierre at CF as a whole than Rowand. Cause offense does play a role in baseball.

The Sox would be stupid to trade Aaron Rowand for Juan Pierre...STUPID.

[Chisoxfn]

Cameron has 3 gold gloves Aaron has 0 , the comparison ends there.

Hunter, Cameron, Wells, Damon, A. Jones, Sizemore , Logan  even Rookie W. Taverz had 10 assist to Rowands 3?  Not exactlly in that order , thats for defense.

Thats right, assists mean your a good defensive outfielder. Like the Guiness Commercial....Rate outfielders defense on Assists....BRILLIANT.

[Chisoxfn]

Im sure our Scouts , G.M. and manager know what there doing, shopping Roberto Clemente II here fellas. I trust there judgement better than the Aaron Rowands fan club.  If he is so good, why even bring him up as trade. reality check.

Just because Joe and Dick at the Tribune say the Sox should shop Aaron, doesn't mean the White Sox are shopping him. I've yet to see KW quoted as saying he wants to move Aaron. All I ever heard all season were compliments about Rowand's play. The pitching staff knows he saved the club a whole lot of runs and the Sox know it.

 

The only way Aaron Rowand is going in a trade is if they are landing a big time bat like Delgado or Thome or someone else thats not currently on the radar.

[beck72]

The Sox would be stupid to trade Aaron Rowand for Juan Pierre...STUPID.

I don't think anyone is saying a straight up trade.

 

The marlins probably would take Marte and a prospect for Pierre though. That would mean Rowand being moved elsewhere. Like Rowand going to Philly for Thome.

 

Isn't that the argument going on? Getting a guy like Pierre and a bat like Thome, for basically Marte, Rowand and a few prospects?

[DBAHO]

I think one aspect that's been overlooked a little is how Pierre could really get back to some good numbers here with the bat. Kind of reminds me of Juan Uribe, when he first came here and had an excellent first season for us.

 

After he hit .287 for Colorado in his final season, he hit .305 for Florida in his first season there. I'd expect him to put up similar numbers to that, with about a .360 OBP.

[SSH2005]

I don't think anyone is saying a straight up trade.

 

The marlins probably would take Marte and a prospect for Pierre though. That would mean Rowand being moved elsewhere. Like Rowand going to Philly for Thome.

 

Isn't that the argument going on? Getting a guy like Pierre and a bat like Thome, for basically Marte, Rowand and a few prospects?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly. Even if we lose Konerko we could still have a good lineup. I don't know how anyone could complain about this:

 

Podsednik LF

Pierre CF

Thome 1B

Frank DH

Dye RF

Iguchi 2B

Pierzynski C

Crede 3B

Uribe SS

 

The only problem is that Frank would have to show that he is healthy and we would still probably need a solid backup plan in case he got injured again.

[beck72]

I think one aspect that's been overlooked a little is how Pierre could really get back to some good numbers here with the bat. Kind of reminds me of Juan Uribe, when he first came here and had an excellent first season for us.

 

After he hit .287 for Colorado in his final season, he hit .305 for Florida in his first season there. I'd expect him to put up similar numbers to that, with about a .360 OBP.

 

And he fits the mold for Ozzie's call for more speed and a new #2 hitter--can handle the bat [one of the best bunters in baseball]; get on base, hit for avg, and steal bases

 

Besides adding a new DH who fits this mold--not many I can think of--getting a new #2 hitter means a position player has to be moved.

[DBAHO]

And he fits the mold for Ozzie's call for more speed and a new #2 hitter--can handle the bat [one of the best bunters in baseball]; get on base, hit for avg, and steal bases

 

Besides adding a new DH who fits this mold--not many I can think of--getting a new #2 hitter means a position player has to be moved.

I suppose you have to look at it from the aspect does Pierre's improvements on the offensive end outweigh Rowand's better capabilities on the defensive end. And you have to weigh up who's more likely to rebound to their 2004 numbers as well.

[SSH2005]

I suppose you have to look at it from the aspect does Pierre's improvements on the offensive end outweigh Rowand's better capabilities on the defensive end. And you have to weigh up who's more likely to rebound to their 2004 numbers as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly. And if you decide to replace Rowand with Pierre, you would just have to make sure you also add high OPS guys at first base and DH. For example, a 3-4-5-6 of Thome, Frank (if healthy), Dye, and Iguchi would make up for a light-hitting outfield composed of Podsednik and Pierre.

[beck72]

I suppose you have to look at it from the aspect does Pierre's improvements on the offensive end outweigh Rowand's better capabilities on the defensive end. And you have to weigh up who's more likely to rebound to their 2004 numbers as well.

 

With Ozzie's knowledge of Pierre's abilities [and I've read about Pierre being a very hard worker who prepares himself to play], if the sox make a move for him I wouldn't be surprised. Pierre would also have to be a guy who woudl blend in well w/ the team--in the clubhouse and on the field.

 

Speaking for myself, we're uniformed idiots. It's the Sox coaching staff and management's opinions and judgments that count. We'll just have to see what changes are made.

[Felix]

What numbers you looking at?

OPS, which shows how productive a player is by merely adding their slugging percentage and on-base percentage. Pierre has, IIRC, a career .730, while Rowand's crap year last year was .736.

[Rowand44]

OPS, which shows how productive a player is by merely adding their slugging percentage and on-base percentage.  Pierre has, IIRC, a career .730, while Rowand's crap year last year was .736.

No offense but it's kind of ridiculous to compare ops of a hitter who hits down in the order and was counted on for some power to comparing it to a leadoff hitter. Leadoff hitters aren't going to hit for power, it's not there job. Juan has a better career obp, steals more bases, and scores more runs. You really can't compare hard numbers with Juan and Aaron because they're in different roles for their respective teams. IMO Juan is a more valuable offensive player then Aaron but Aaron is a better defender...how much better I'm not really sure. Like I've said, I want to see Juan play some D as I really don't recall him playing CF that much even though I've seen him play a bunch of times.

[SSH2005]

No offense but it's kind of ridiculous to compare ops of a hitter who hits down in the order and was counted on for some power to comparing it to a leadoff hitter.  Leadoff hitters aren't going to hit for power, it's not there job.  Juan has a better career obp, steals more bases, and scores more runs.  You really can't compare hard numbers with Juan and Aaron because they're in different roles for their respective teams.  IMO Juan is a more valuable offensive player then Aaron but Aaron is a better defender...how much better I'm not really sure.  Like I've said, I want to see Juan play some D as I really don't recall him playing CF that much even though I've seen him play a bunch of times.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[beck72]

as far as all the fielding stats being thrown around, comparing Pierre and Arow, most are useless. Andruw Jones was 10th in range factor and 16th in zone rating, far behind guys who are known to be very inferior to Jones.

 

Sometimes scouts and professional coaching staffs have a more accurate gauge on a player's defensive abilities. This time I'll wait on what the sox do with this situation.

[Rowand44]

as far as all the fielding stats being thrown around, comparing Pierre and Arow, most are useless. Andruw Jones was 10th in range factor and 16th in zone rating, far behind guys who are known to be very inferior to Jones.

 

Sometimes scouts and professional coaching staffs have a more accurate gauge on a player's defensive abilities. This time I'll wait on what the sox do with this situation.

I'm not a fan of defensive statistics to be honest, there's just to much other things factor into those stats. I personally like to watch guys play before I make a judgement on them defensively, stats just don't do the justice, imo.

[Felix]

No offense but it's kind of ridiculous to compare ops of a hitter who hits down in the order and was counted on for some power to comparing it to a leadoff hitter.  Leadoff hitters aren't going to hit for power, it's not there job.  Juan has a better career obp, steals more bases, and scores more runs.  You really can't compare hard numbers with Juan and Aaron because they're in different roles for their respective teams.  IMO Juan is a more valuable offensive player then Aaron but Aaron is a better defender...how much better I'm not really sure.  Like I've said, I want to see Juan play some D as I really don't recall him playing CF that much even though I've seen him play a bunch of times.

Although slight, Aaron has a better stolen base percentage than Pierre (I would still take Pierre's ~40 more stolen bases, but still, he gets caught a hell of a lot as well).

As for the runs, thats purely team dependant, and as you said, its kind of ridiculous to compare a player who hits in front of the meat of the lineup (Pierre) than one who hits at the bottom of the lineup (Rowand).

 

And OPS shows how good the offensive player is. It doesn't show how good the player fits into the system, which is what you are saying. Rowand is a better offensive player according to the numbers. Is he a better leadoff hitter? No. Is he a better #2 guy? No. But is he a better overall offensive producer? Yes. Pierre has almost 2000 more AB's than Rowand, yet only has 14 more extra base hits than Rowand does. In fact, if Rowand had the same amount of AB's as Pierre, his overall numbers would trump Pierre's.

 

We already have Juan Pierre on this team, his name is Scott Podsednik. I love Pods, and I love what he's done for this team, but we don't need two of him. The only way, I would ever trade for Pierre for this team would be if we also acquired Delgado from the Marlins, but past that, no thanks.

[Felix]

as far as all the fielding stats being thrown around, comparing Pierre and Arow, most are useless. Andruw Jones was 10th in range factor and 16th in zone rating, far behind guys who are known to be very inferior to Jones.

 

Sometimes scouts and professional coaching staffs have a more accurate gauge on a player's defensive abilities. This time I'll wait on what the sox do with this situation.

BaseballProspectus' RAR and RAA are pretty good from my experience, as is UZR (which isn't public anymore, or something), but yes, all fielding stats are flawed.

[Rowand44]

Although slight, Aaron has a better stolen base percentage than Pierre (I would still take Pierre's ~40 more stolen bases, but still, he gets caught a hell of a lot as well).

As for the runs, thats purely team dependant, and as you said, its kind of ridiculous to compare a player who hits in front of the meat of the lineup (Pierre) than one who hits at the bottom of the lineup (Rowand).

 

And OPS shows how good the offensive player is.  It doesn't show how good the player fits into the system, which is what you are saying.  Rowand is a better offensive player according to the numbers.  Is he a better leadoff hitter?  No.  Is he a better #2 guy?  No.  But is he a better overall offensive producer?  Yes.  Pierre has almost 2000 more AB's than Rowand, yet only has 14 more extra base hits than Rowand does.  In fact, if Rowand had the same amount of AB's as Pierre, his overall numbers would trump Pierre's.

 

We already have Juan Pierre on this team, his name is Scott Podsednik.  I love Pods, and I love what he's done for this team, but we don't need two of him.  The only way, I would ever trade for Pierre for this team would be if we also acquired Delgado from the Marlins, but past that, no thanks.

 

This is how I'll put it: if Juan was here he'd make a better number 2 hitter then Aaron, correct?? Then if that was the case you move gooch down and he'd be a better run producer then Aaron imo. Overall offensively I think Juan is a better player, having 2 guys at the top of the order who can run like crazy and cause chaos would be terrific and like Ozzie said it takes some pressure off of Scott.

 

EDIT: Actually to make this a fair comparison I should have stated Juan vs. Tad in the 2 hole. As good as Gooch was there I think Juan could be a bit better cause he can control the bat even better then the Gooch, and he doesn't strike out as much.

Edited November 20, 2005 by Rowand44

[worldchampsox05]

wtf r all of u smoking? kw is trying to build this team on pitching and DEFENSE so if we get rid of aaron in my opinion then that just messes evrything up..he is without a doubt a better defensive player than f***in pierre..and u guys r wasting ur time going to chicagotribune.com and evrything else the only real way to find s*** out is actually going to whitesox.com...ppl on chicago tribune dont know s*** and thats just there views on evrything..ok i think im done

[Rowand44]

wtf r all of u smoking? kw is trying to build this team on pitching and DEFENSE so if we get rid of aaron in my opinion then that just messes evrything up..he is without a doubt a better defensive player than f***in pierre..and u guys r wasting ur time going to chicagotribune.com and evrything else the only real way to find s*** out is actually going to whitesox.com...ppl on chicago tribune dont know s*** and thats just there views on evrything..ok i think im done

Someone a little attatched to Aaron?

[worldchampsox05]

haha not attached but he is my fave player but thats not the point....he is better definsively than pierre

[Soxpranos]

OPS, which shows how productive a player is by merely adding their slugging percentage and on-base percentage.  Pierre has, IIRC, a career .730, while Rowand's crap year last year was .736.

 

Slugging? Pierre is not a slugger, either is Rownad who was suppose to be one. Try putting all the offensive numbers down like steals, stike out ratio and dont forget moving guys over on bunts something you seen in game 4 of the world series Aaron does verry well.

[Felix]

Slugging? Pierre is not a slugger, either is Rownad who was suppose to be one. Try putting all the offensive numbers down like steals, stike out ratio and dont forget moving guys over on bunts something you seen in game 4 of the world series Aaron does verry well.

Like steals? Rowand is a more successful stealer, does that count?

 

Also, tell me what a good offensive player does, since you obviously don't think having a higher slugging + on base percentage makes up a good one.

 

 

Pierre is a better leadoff hitter, but is not the better offensive player.