Add Iraq's elected leaders

[FlaSoxxJim]

The democratically elected leaders of sovereign nation of Iraq want us to think about a withdrawal timetable. No specified withdrawal date was demended, but here is the opprotunity to begin this dialog so that a reasonable timetable for troop reduction can be agreed upon.

 

Unless, of course, the reality is that the neocons aren't in any hurry to scale back their presence in a Middle East they want very desperately to shape and influence.

 

Iraqi Leaders Urge a Timetable for Eventual Troop Withdrawal

Nov. 21 (Bloomberg) -- Iraqi leaders, meeting at a reconciliation conference in Cairo, urged an end to violence in the country and demanded a timetable for the withdrawal of coalition troops from Iraq.

 

In a final statement, read by Arab League chief Amre Moussa, host of the three-day summit, they called for ``the withdrawal of foreign troops according to a timetable, through putting in place an immediate national program to rebuild the armed forces.'' No date was specified.

 

``The Iraqi people look forward to the day when the foreign forces leave Iraq, when it's armed and security forces will be rebuilt and when they can enjoy peace and stability and get rid of terrorism,'' the leaders said in the statement.

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=100...=top_world_news

[kapkomet]

There's nothing new here. It pretty much goes along with what's been said for almost three years now. When they can support themselves, we will leave.

 

As a matter of a question here, how long did it take to rebuild Europe after WWII?

 

Just a thought.

[FlaSoxxJim]

It hasn't been the same story for three years because the democratically elected officials have been around for less than one year.

 

And you are rigt in that this "demand" is still open ended. That is the problem.

 

The Pentagon has been looking at drawdown options, and General Casey has drawdown after the elections on his mind as well. So does the Iraqi parliment. So does the American public and so doesd Congress. The White House needs to engage this dialog and commit to a plan for beginning troop reductions once certain ATTAINABLE benchmarks are achieved.

 

That is very different than saying we'll leave once there is stability because then we're never getting out. Our presence throws fuel on an already inherently unstable sociopolitical situation.

[Balta1701]

Just a small bit of a reminder...from January...(now behind the NYT Timeselect wall)

 

WASHINGTON, Jan. 27 – President Bush said in an interview on Thursday that he would withdraw American forces from Iraq if the new government that is elected on Sunday asked him to do so, but that he expected Iraq’s first democratically elected leaders would want the troops to remain as helpers, not as occupiers.

 

“I’ve heard the voices of the people that presumably will be in positions of responsibility after these elections, though you never know,” Mr. Bush said. “But it seems that most of the leadership there understands that there will be a need for coalition troops at least until the Iraqis are able to fight.”

 

He did not say who he expected would emerge victorious. But asked if, as a matter of principle, the United States would pull out of Iraq at the request of a new government, he said: “Yes, absolutely. This is a sovereign government – they’re on their feet.”

[Controlled Chaos]

I don't know why the conservatives would want to bring the troops back. They get such great publicity with them there. I mean what else bolsters support for your party more than body bags. "Die American troops" "Die American troops" I can hear the chants at the election rallies now...they are gonna pull in so many votes!!

[kapkomet]

Just a small bit of a reminder...from January...(now behind the NYT Timeselect wall)

Ok, that's fine... they have not asked us to leave yet.

[Balta1701]

Ok, that's fine... they have not asked us to leave yet.

So if they actually asked us to leave immediately we'd listen...but we don't have to listen to them because they're only asking for a timetable?

 

There's some sort of joke about sovereignty that I'm sure I could think of if I wasn't trying to catch up on 7 field mapping days worth of homework.

[kapkomet]

So if they actually asked us to leave immediately we'd listen...but we don't have to listen to them because they're only asking for a timetable?

 

There's some sort of joke about sovereignty that I'm sure I could think of if I wasn't trying to catch up on 7 field mapping days worth of homework.

Who said we're not listening? The plans are being drawn up, and I'm sure that we'll get together with their elected officials and determine the best strategy.

 

Now get back to your homework...

[Texsox]

The more I think about Kap's comment about the US wanting to use Iraq as a Middle East base, I think we will drag our heels for a long time, and keep many troops. Possible 20,000? Possibly more. That may prove to be a good thing. I imagine we should be setting up a nice base and getting comfy.

[Balta1701]

Who said we're not listening?  The plans are being drawn up, and I'm sure that we'll get together with their elected officials and determine the best strategy.

 

Now get back to your homework...

Actually...given that Bush has thus far refused to set a timetable for withdrawal, and that's exactly what they asked for...it'd mean a major policy shift if they did listen to that demand.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Actually...given that Bush has thus far refused to set a timetable for withdrawal, and that's exactly what they asked for...it'd mean a major policy shift if they did listen to that demand.

 

Bingo. Everybody is talking timetables. . . except the White House.

[kapkomet]

Bingo.  Everybody is talking timetables. . .  except the White House.

And I think they are too... just not with some magical date that you all want.

[Balta1701]

The more I think about Kap's comment about the US wanting to use Iraq as a Middle East base, I think we will drag our heels for a long time, and keep many troops. Possible 20,000? Possibly more. That may prove to be a good thing. I imagine we should be setting up a nice base and getting comfy.

Actually...we've quietly been constructing something like 14 bases in Iraq...many of which, to paraphrase Mr. Kerry in 1 of the debates, have something of a permanent character to them.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

And I think they are too... just not with some magical date that you all want.

 

 

There will be a phased withdrawal throughout the course of 2006. If there are more than 50-70'000 troops there at the time of the US midterms Id be utterly shocked.

 

 

Bush will pull out troops next year......book it. For no other reason than if he doesn't have a significant withdrawal to point to come the mid terms the Republicans are gonna take a pasting on par with the one they dished out in 1994.

[Balta1701]

And I think they are too... just not with some magical date that you all want.

No...they've been unwilling even to do that...even to say that there are benchmarks after which we will begin withdrawing...their line is that they are in until they win (and of course, they've defined us leaving as us losing)

[Texsox]

And I think they are too... just not with some magical date that you all want.

 

I'd like to see some timetable that involved milestones, not dates on the calendar. Reduce one American for every 2 Iraqi soldiers trained, for example. And I think 2 Iraqi to one Nuke may be an understatement Maybe 3:1?

[FlaSoxxJim]

And I think they are too... just not with some magical date that you all want.

 

I personally don't even need a date, just a tie-in to realistically achievable progress benchmarks and/or our when our Iraqi hosts do tell us to leave.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

And I think 2 Iraqi to one Nuke may be an understatement  Maybe 3:1?

 

 

I bet you we end up there before the end of 2006.

[Texsox]

I bet you we end up there before the end of 2006.

 

Realistically, how many Iraqi soldiers would it take to replace 100 US soldiers? I honestly think 200-250. I base this on training, equipment, tradition, corruption, and a few other factors.

[Mercy!]

It hardly matters what makes sense anymore. We went in on the cheap, Wolfowitz telling us we would be greeted like the liberators of France. After the Iraqi army melted away, it became clear that we had no coherent plan to build a nation while fighting urban guerrilla warfare. Rummy had surrounded himself with yes-men who supported his vision of a new military. The Bush administration s***-canned General Shinseki when he spoke the truth before a congressional committee about the real numbers of troops that would be required to do the job properly.

 

Our Marines weren’t designed to be an occupying force, but we will never commit a sufficient number of Army troops. We won the war. We are losing the peace. Time to come home. The tipping point has occurred with the American public.

 

It doesn’t take tactical genius on the home front for wives to know that when their 50 year old husbands in the Reserves are having to ship out to Iraq for second and third tours that something bad is happening with our formerly shining volunteer military.

 

Rep. Murtha’s call for an immediate withdrawal allowed for six months to get the bulk of it done with ready-response troops withdrawn to perimeter locations. That gives all those opposed to that quick a timetable to “compromise” on something between now and less than a year. And that is what I think will happen.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Wolfowitz telling us we would be greeted like the liberators of France. 

 

We were.........I was there and I saw it for myself. In my view we squandered the goodwill generated by the removal of Hussein by allowing our lack of a plan to sink the country into chaos in the months after the invasion ended.

 

After the Iraqi army melted away, it became clear that we had no coherent plan to build a nation while fighting urban guerrilla warfare.  Rummy had surrounded himself with yes-men who supported his vision of a new military.  The Bush administration s***-canned General Shinseki when he spoke the truth before a congressional committee about the real numbers of troops that would be required to do the job properly.

 

 

I agree. My first few weeks in Baghdad we didn't know what to do, who was in charge or what was coming next. We basically acted as a sort of 911 force roaming around looking for problems and trying to help whoever we could. The Iraqi civillian institutions ( police, fire, medical.....etc etc........were non-existant)

 

It doesn’t take tactical genius on the home front for wives to know that when their 50 year old husbands in the Reserves are having to ship out to Iraq for second and third tours that something bad is happening with our formerly shining volunteer military.

 

Despite getting the equivalent of a knee scrape from 2 years of insurgency, the US military has never been in better shape. Our forces are now nearly universally battle hardened and have far better training and equipment than they had just 3 years ago.

 

 

Rep. Murtha’s call for an immediate withdrawal allowed for six months to get the bulk of it done with ready-response troops withdrawn to perimeter locations.  That gives all those opposed to that quick a timetable to “compromise” on something between now and less than a year.  And that is what I think will happen.

 

 

Once again.........agree.

[Texsox]

At what point are we being the biggest, baddest, police force in the world and when are we being an Army? Are we trying for zero crime before leaving? We don't have that in the US. There is no Army in the traditional sense to fight.

[Balta1701]

At what point are we being the biggest, baddest, police force in the world and when are we being an Army? Are we trying for zero crime before leaving? We don't have that in the US. There is no Army in the traditional sense to fight.

See, this question would make a lot more sense if Iraq was anywhere close to our own level of crime. But when tens of thousands of its citizens are being murdered every year out of a population less than California, even getting their crime rate down remotely close to where the crime rate in the U.S. currently is would be an incredible accomplishment.

[Texsox]

See, this question would make a lot more sense if Iraq was anywhere close to our own level of crime.  But when tens of thousands of its citizens are being murdered every year out of a population less than California, even getting their crime rate down remotely close to where the crime rate in the U.S. currently is would be an incredible accomplishment.

 

tens of thousands, where did you get that number?

[Balta1701]

tens of thousands, where did you get that number?

The Pentagon released a report recently saying that the civilian casualty toll was on the order of 26,000 since the start of 2004.

 

I consider that to be a minimum number, given the amount of deaths which are likely handled by families or who's bodies are never recovered. What the maximum is, I'm in no position to estimate.

 

Iraqbodycount.net, which only compiles press accounts of civilian casualties, puts the number recorded by the press since the start of the war at 26,000 to 30000. Again, same problem - if a guy gets gunned down in an alley, it probably won't m ake their count.