Get rid of...

[rafacosta]

I dont give a s*** if he hit a HR today because when it counts he give the W to the Twinkis. Renteria would be great...Bring Aaron Miles and put D'angelo on SS.

[IndySoxFan]

but jose is my favorite player

[rafacosta]

but jose is my favorite player

I'm sorry...He plays SS like 20 years and makes ton of errors in every season.

[BrandoFan]

I dont give a s*** if he hit a HR today because when it counts he give the W to the Twinkis. Renteria would be great...Bring Aaron Miles and put D'angelo on SS.

Valentin's 9 errors have cost the Sox grand total of 3 or 4 runs depending on how you score them. Tejada's 12 errors have cost the A's 6 or 8 runs depending on how you score them.

 

In was Jose's first error in 10 games and his throwing has been more sound mechanically lately. Today was bad, he went for too much trying to hit running Wunsht and get Gordon out of the jam, sure no arguement from me...but let's keep it in perspective, shall we? Next time Jose scores on a blooping single all the way from first, remember your post. Ditto for him coming up with a clutch extra-base hit. 22 RBIs from your smart-running, SS who is hitting second and who hasn't even gotten hot yet? Most playoff teams would gladly take that without hesitation. Did I mention his leadership? I guess if it doesn't show up in the stat column, it doesn't exist, right?

 

Renteria is having a career year and will demand 8-10 million a year if he keeps it up. Easily. Enough said. And if you think Miles is the savior, I have a solar system to sell you.

[rafacosta]

Valentin's 9 errors have cost the Sox grand total of 3 or 4 runs depending on how you score them. Tejada's 12 errors have cost the A's 6 or 8 runs depending on how you score them.

 

In was Jose's first error in 10 games and his throwing has been more sound mechanically lately.  Today was bad, he went for too much trying to hit running Wunsht and get Gordon out of the jam, sure no arguement from me...but let's keep it in perspective, shall we?  Next time Jose scores on a blooping single all the way from first, remember your post. Ditto for him coming up with a clutch extra-base hit.  22 RBIs from your smart-running, SS who is hitting second and who hasn't even gotten hot yet?  Most playoff teams would gladly take that without hesitation. Did I mention his leadership?  I guess if it doesn't show up in the stat column, it doesn't exist, right?

 

Renteria is having a career year and will demand 8-10 million a year if he keeps it up.  Easily. Enough said.  And if you think Miles is the savior, I have a solar system to sell you.

I know he is agreat leader, clutch hitter but it's his fourth season with the White Sox and 1 postseason season with him, i know before him it was 6 seasons without a postseason. We need a SS that can 1st D, and 2nd hit. Clayton was a stupid b****, that wasnt the solution for our problems. I mentioned Aaron because he can be a guy like Eckstein, do want a Eckstein in ur team, i want.

[Winning Ugly]

Valentin's 9 errors have cost the Sox grand total of 3 or 4 runs depending on how you score them. Tejada's 12 errors have cost the A's 6 or 8 runs depending on how you score them.

Yeah, but out of how many game? We all know Valentin rarely starts against lefties, and Tejada's an everyday SS.

[BrandoFan]

Valentin's 9 errors have cost the Sox grand total of 3 or 4 runs depending on how you score them. Tejada's 12 errors have cost the A's 6 or 8 runs depending on how you score them.

Yeah, but out of how many game? We all know Valentin rarely starts against lefties, and Tejada's an everyday SS.

He played in plenty of games to make the comparison valid.

 

The point was not that Valentin is a better filding SS than Tejada (he is not: though he has more range than heavy Tejada and certainly charges the bunts better, Tejada's is arm is a touch more reliable), but that people seriously underrate Jose;s D. tinking he is this terrible, worst fielder of all time...which he is not.

 

He is usually very clutch defensively (how many diving thefts has made in the lasty 3 years with ROB? A lot), making a ton of errors with noone on base. Before his hamstring issues, he had a ton of range and still has a very strong arm and quick release. Finally, his DP-turning and positioning is superb and that correct a lot of routine mistakes he commits.

 

I would say he is slightly below-average defensively (if he was a good filder, he wold be making 9-10 million a year for a playoff team) all things condered and can improved DRAMATICALLY if he ever decides to tweak his throwing motion. He is certainly not the defensive liability most people make him out to be. Just watch some games.

[Bmr31]

Valentin's 9 errors have cost the Sox grand total of 3 or 4 runs depending on how you score them.   Tejada's 12 errors have cost the A's 6 or 8 runs depending on how you score them.

Yeah, but out of how many game? We all know Valentin rarely starts against lefties, and Tejada's an everyday SS.

He played in plenty of games to make the comparison valid.

 

The point was not that Valentin is a better filding SS than Tejada (he is not: though he has more range than heavy Tejada and certainly charges the bunts better, Tejada's is arm is a touch more reliable), but that people seriously underrate Jose;s D. tinking he is this terrible, worst fielder of all time...which he is not.

 

He is usually very clutch defensively (how many diving thefts has made in the lasty 3 years with ROB? A lot), making a ton of errors with noone on base. Before his hamstring issues, he had a ton of range and still has a very strong arm and quick release. Finally, his DP-turning and positioning is superb and that correct a lot of routine mistakes he commits.

 

I would say he is slightly below-average defensively (if he was a good filder, he wold be making 9-10 million a year for a playoff team) all things condered and can improved DRAMATICALLY if he ever decides to tweak his throwing motion. He is certainly not the defensive liability most people make him out to be. Just watch some games.

From what i see, Jose just makes his errors at the wrong times. I would agree to the slightly below average defensively.

[cwsox]

Just watch some games.

I do. I am tired of the apologists for St JosE6. Get rid of his ass now. He costs us games. He cost us today.

 

We have so many posts that say "the Sox are doing terrible." And then some people keep saying "Jose is a leader." A leader in what? Losing games on a terrible team?

 

Enough is enough is enough. He is leading us nowhere. Get rid of him.

[Soxfest]

I do.  I am tired of the apologists for St JosE6.  Get rid of his ass now.  He costs us games.  He cost us today. 

 

We have so many posts that say "the Sox are doing terrible."  And then some people keep saying "Jose is a leader."  A leader in what?  Losing games on a terrible team?

 

Enough is enough is enough.  He is leading us nowhere.  Get rid of him.

I agree on JV and he is not the only one who needs to go.

[BrandoFan]

I do. I am tired of the apologists for St JosE6. Get rid of his ass now. He costs us games. He cost us today.

 

I am as frustrated with this team as you are dude , trust me. But what does that have to do with facts such as:

 

--Jose is a clutch hitter who despite his usual slow start, has 22 RBIs out of second spot. When he heats up and when this whole team puts more ROB, that EASILY transpates into 100 RBIs...out of 2nd spot at that. What, you expected A-Rod?

--One hell of a base-runner on a team that can't f***ing score on 4 f***ing non-IF singles even with his ham-stings. If you are watching games like I say you do, how can you not notice "little" things like him efforlessly taking extra bases and scoring on from second on a single, etc as well as anybody in the game.

--He doesn't have his old range, but it's still above average (how many dive catches does he make, ah?) and his arm was never in doubt. So he commits a lot of routine errors, so what if they ONLY COST THE SOX 4 LEGITIMATE RUNS without adjusting how many runs he "saves" with his quick DPs and force outs at 2nd...he has only 4 more errors than weak-armed Vizquel for crying out loud. what else do you want? Gold Glove? Yeah, whatever, a gold glove SS costs A LOT....Afterall you watch games, those things should be very apparent to you.

 

Renterioa straight up for Jose? Sure, why not...but it ain't gonna happen. Instead, you will have a little-range, mediocre arm, almost as unreliable Graffanino who doesn't turn a good DP, run nearly as well and who probably won't be as good/clutch with a stick in the longer run....is that what you want? Or Jimenez maybe? Hummel? Miles?

 

Forget about leadership skills/intangibility and popularity, those are not thew PRIMARY reasons Jose is valuable, but they matter more than you think. This team will turn it around, trust me.

[Bmr31]

I am as frustrated with this team as you are dude , trust me.  But what does that have to do with facts such as:

 

--Jose is a clutch hitter who despite his usual slow start, has 22 RBIs out of second spot.  When he heats up and when this whole team puts more ROB, that EASILY transpates into 100 RBIs...out of 2nd spot at that.  What, you expected A-Rod?

--One hell of a base-runner on a team that can't f***ing score on 4 f***ing non-IF singles even with his ham-stings. If you are watching games like I say you do, how can you not notice "little" things like him efforlessly taking extra bases and scoring on  from second on a single, etc as well as anybody in the game. 

--He doesn't have his old range, but it's still above average (how many dives does he make, ah?) and his arm was in never in doubt.  So he commints a lot of routine errors, so what if they ONLY COST THE SOX 4 LEGITIMATE RUNS without adjusting how many runs he "saves" with his quick DPs and force outs at 2nd...he has only 4 more errors than Viquel for crying out loud.  what else do you want?  Gold Glove?  Yeah, whatever, a gold glove SS costs A LOT....Afterall you watch games, those things should be very apparent to you.

 

Renterioa straight up for Jose?  Sure, why not...but it ain't gonna happen.  Instead, you will have a little-range, mediocre arm, almost as unreliable Graffanino who doesn't turn a good DP, run nearly as well and who probably won't be as good/clutch with a stick in the longer run....is that what you want?  Or Jimenez maybe?  Hummel?  Miles?

 

Forget about leadership skills/intangibility and popularity, those are not thew PRIMARY reasons Jose is valuable, but they matter more than you think.  This team will turn it around, trust me.

I didnt read all that pro jose bs but..................Jose IS worth keeping. As a utility infielder. The sox have 4 or 5 bench players, in the starting lineup. THAT IS OUR PROBLEM!

[Bmr31]

That's even more idiotic than making him a DH...He is a winner playing on a club full of (talented) losers. He is easily worth 3-5 Mill to a WINNING team because of aformentioned skills he brings, but his value goes down significantly if 1) he doesn't play on a winning team and 2) doesn't get regular at bats.  Some players can be good at pinch-hitting utility role, some can't.  He is not worth the money if he doesn't start.  Especially to the budget-tight Sox...Either win with Jose every day in the line-up or get rid of him in a WF-type firesale.

 

End of story.

woooah, youre jumping to assumptions. I agree Jose should start on this team. My point was, on a GOOD baseball team, he would make an excellent utility infielder. He is just not a good starting SS....or starting ANYTHING.

[BrandoFan]

Jose IS worth keeping. As a utility infielder

 

That's even more idiotic than making him a DH...He is a winner playing on a club full of (talented) losers. He is easily worth 3-5 Mill to a WINNING team because of aformentioned skills he brings, but his value goes down significantly if 1) he doesn't play on a winning team, 2) doesn't get regular at bats. and 3) doesn't play every day SS...He is not worth the money if he doesn't start. Especially to the budget-tight Sox...Either win with Jose every day in the line-up or get rid of him in a WF-type firesale.

 

End of story.

[Bmr31]

When the sox overhaul their team, id like to see them use Jose as a super sub type player. s*** he could still get between 300-400 ABs a year.......

[BrandoFan]

When the sox overhaul their team, id like to see them use Jose as a super sub type player.  s*** he could still get between 300-400 ABs a year.......

At 5 Mill a year? Are you f***ing crazy, with JR's approach to spending/team-building at that? LOL.

 

Once again, for the 'tarded ones: Jose is too streaky/mental a hitter to thrive in Daubach's role. He brings to much as an everyday guy and so little as a part-time player sa proven by his incosistant play in 2001-2002 when platooned with the Choice...He would routinely go 2-4 with 2 RBI's and would sit the next two games...it didn't work too well and neither did pinch-hitting. He needs confidence and if you don't put him in that position, you might as well let him go.

 

This is moot, Jose will not stay with this team as a utility guy evcen if we were to pick up his option next year. There is always Anaheim/SanFranciso/Atlanta/Met's-type team who will give him a shot if he puts up decent numbers this year.

[Bmr31]

At 5 Mill a year?  Are you f***ing crazy, with JR's approach to /spendingteam-building at that?  LOL.

 

Once again, for the 'tarded ones: Jose is too streaky of a hitter to be in Daubach's role.  He brings to much as an everyday guy and so little as a part-time player sa proven by his incosistant play in 2001-2002 when platooned with the Choice...He would routinely go 2-4 with 2 RBI's and would sit the next two games...it didn't work too well and neither did pinch-hitting.

 

This is moot, Jose will not stay with this team as a utility guy evcen if we were to pick up his option next year.  There is always Anaheim/SanFranciso/Atlanta/Met's-type team who will give him a shot if he puts up decent numbers this year.

I dont have any interest in fantasizing about being the sox gm, like you voodoo. The salary of players is up to the GM. Whats the difference how much he makes if hes getting the same amount of at bats? IF they cant find him 400 ABs in that role, let him go. Simple.

[Molto]

it is never IF an error leads to run. just because his mistakes don't cost us doesn't take away from the point that he makes mistakes. even so, it leads to extra batters and more pitches, which is why he's been a problem.

 

but as of now, we don't have a better option, so we have to stick with Valentin.

[BrandoFan]

it is never IF an error leads to run. just because his mistakes don't cost us doesn't take away from the point that he makes mistakes. even so, it leads to extra batters and more pitches, which is why he's been a problem.

 

I don't think he is been that big of a problem and stats support it....Again, I would never say Jose is a Gold Glover...but he is not nearly the Error Boogiman he is being portrayed as after one frickie' game. If he gets the runner ay 1st in that situation and preserves the lead, I bet noone goes "Jose made a great play and saved a run"...He is below-average on D. all things considered and gets paid as such. I gave Tejada as an example.

 

As far as mythical "defensive clutch'ness" is concerned, example: Paul Konerko's inept defensive play and lack of range must have cost the Sox 5-8 runs in this year's first 2 series alone (thankfully generous scoring only game him 2 errors). Think about that for a second...Jose has 9 errors and yet only 4 runs ALL year (1 Minnesota, 2 in Oakland and 1 in KC if you disreagrd the fact that runner would have scored from 3rd on the play regardless) and that, combioned with his range, arm and DPs, spells C-L-U-T-C-H. So lay off, will ya?

 

but as of now, we don't have a better option, so we have to stick with Valentin

.

 

Exactly. I love Jose's leadership, his clutch play and the fact that he took less money to stay with the Sox...but I would totally welcome Tejada, Renteria, etc if we could get them. But we won't...so Jose must stay as an everyday SS if we want to win.

[southsider2k5]

Silly question but at 3 games under .500, and hitting .250 how much LEADERSHIP is being provided by Jose, or anyone else on this team?

[Bmr31]

Silly question but at 3 games under .500, and hitting .250 how much LEADERSHIP is being provided by Jose, or anyone else on this team?

uh that would be zero. I think Brando is under Joses desk a lot............

[BrandoFan]

Silly question but at 3 games under .500, and hitting .250 how much LEADERSHIP is being provided by Jose, or anyone else on this team?

Ask me again in August when Jose has 85 Rbi, 15 of them of game-deciding variety, scores a bunch from 1st on marginal doubles, moves runners along, turns close to a 100 DPs, ect, etc....part of the reason this is a badly underachieving team is that we have next to nobody who is doing all of that, and even struggling Jose is valuable in that respect.

 

As far as intangibles go, they are what they are. If Jimenez is playing well for the first time because Jose vouched to "kick his butt" every morning...if Jose moderates peace talks with Thomas....helps the helpless Manuel gauge the players' temperature....somehow talks Buerhle into staying with the Sox for an extra year or two...mentors Crede....shows up Sosa in Wrigley...handles the national press in the pennant....it won't show up in Jose's stat column, you're right. Take it or leave it. Its not the only thing that counts as far as winning is concerned, but it counts in a long run...if only toward a player's popularity...and with this fan-challenged team, it's a lot

[Bmr31]

Ask me again in August when Jose has 85 Rbi, 15 of them of game-deciding variety, scores a bunch on marginal doubles, moves runners along, turns clse to a 100 DPs, ect, etc

 

As far as intangibles go, they are what they are.  If Jimenez is playing well because Jose vouched to "kick his butt" in Spring Training..if Jose  moderates peace talks with Thomas ....or somehow talks Buerhle into staying with the Sox for an extra year or two...mentors Crede....shows up Cubbies in Wirgley...handles the national press in the pennant....it won't show up in Jose's stat column, you're right.  Take it or leave it.  I'ts not the only thing that counts, but it counts in a long run...if only toward a playerpopularity...and with this fan-challenged team, it's a lot.

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH, the guy is a below average major league SS. Its not even debatable.

[witesoxfan]

Jose accounted for both of our runs today.

 

If he gets ANY help, we win the ball game and his error means nothing.

 

Don't get rid of Jose. He's the only one, aside from maybe Thomas, that is exceeding expectations and is actually playing well....offensively, that is. I'm not talking about pitching....because if I was, you'd see Loaiza's name as well.

[BrandoFan]

Jose accounted for both of our runs today

 

That's not true, you can never assume a double play and the ball wasn't hit hard enough to Paulie. You think A-Rod would have thrown Pierzinky or whomever out? Common now.