Carlos Delgado traded to NY Mets

[hitlesswonder]

Yeah, Mike Jacobs is a Supa Stah

 

Scouts hate Petit.  But yeah, that was an unbeatable deal.

 

Jacobs may not be very good, but he was a Mets rookie with 100 good ML at-bats which means he got a lot of pub. Maybe the Marlins just like over-hyped east coast prospects? That would explain dealing Beckett for Hanley Ramirez.

 

I imagine for the Sox to beat this deal would have meant trading McCarthy (whose minor league numbers are a lot like Petit's) and maybe Sweeney (that's one problem, the Sox don't have a 1B prospect even as good Jacobs). Plus taking on $41 million for three years. So, yeah, they definitely could have beaten the Mets deal, but it would be a big price to pay for someone who apparently doesn't like Chicago

Edited November 23, 2005 by hitlesswonder

[bschmaranz]

I think him and Isiah Thomas go to the same GM school.

 

I think the only difference there is Omar actually got some high priced "talent" with this deal, something Thomas doesn't do.

[Pierzynski 12]

The Mets trade two young dudes.No matter what moves the Mets make,they still suck.

[Balta1701]

Hmmm...you know what comes to my mind when I read this? Think about what the Marlins just did.

 

The Marlins just spent $4.5 million, got 30 home runs from Delgado 1 year, and got 2 prospects out of it.

 

Now that my friends is how a GM can build a franchise. Wow.

[Punch and Judy Garland]

actually Balta that would be 11.5 million as the marlins will pay 7 million over the next 2-3 years. I don't think it was a terrible risk for the Marlins to take. They tookk a shot at winning it all and they came up short. THey gave Miggy some protection-and now he won't have anything which is unfortunate for a budding megastar. While the Mets are paying a lot here in terms of money, and possibly throwing Billy Wagner 40 million is a TON of money, they are rich with their new tv channel and can afford this stuff. If they go out and get Ramon Hernandez and can do something in front of Wagner, we have a legitimate contender here( if only for ONE year)

[Balta1701]

Yeah, I didn't catch that either. $11 mil or so. Mugh.

 

Still...Think of it this way...the marlins signed a guy for 1 year, paid him basically the salary worth 1 year, and they get 2 potentially very good and cheap players out of it.

 

That is still a heck of a way to build a ballclub. We've done some of the same things - think about signing Loaiza and turning him into Contreras. Overall, the Delgado signing is probably a masterstroke for the Marlins.

[SSH2005]

So wait, you know exactly what salary we were willing to take on?

 

The Mets were able to acquire D without using anyone (essentially, Jacobs would have been their starting 1B) from their 25 man roster. Isn't that exactly what the defending World Champion should be trying to do?

 

Yeah he cost prospects. That's what they're for.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jphat007 seems to think any trade not made by the White Sox is horrible. He said the same thing about the Red Sox trading for Beckett and Lowell. I don't think he realizes that prospects are really just unproven talent. They could be busts for all we know. Delgado is a sure thing. You are exactly right. "That's what they're for."

 

Yah, 2 of the best prospects in the system for a 1-year rental, one that costs 12.5 million that the Mets will have to pay for him next year.

 

Forgive me if I wouldn't do that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did you cry when the Sox traded Jeremy Reed and Miguel Olivo?

Edited November 23, 2005 by SSH2005

[jphat007]

Jphat007 seems to think any trade not made by the White Sox is horrible.  He said the same thing about the Red Sox trading for Beckett and Lowell.  I don't think he realizes that prospects are really just unproven talent.  They could be busts for all we know.  Delgado is a sure thing.  You are exactly right.  "That's what they're for."

Did you cry when the Sox traded Jeremy Reed and Miguel Olivo?

 

No. I was one of the biggest backers of the deal. And you are putting words into my mouth. I never said the deal was bad for Boston, I said Beckett was not an Ace IMO and Lowell sucks. Boston gives up a lot, but they get a good 2/3 pitcher, but one that could very easily get injured and wreck their rotation. It was a good deal for a team like Boston that doesn't need prospects and can just go out and get whoever they want. It would not have been a good deal for a lot of other teams.

 

That doesn't change my opinion on this Delgado deal either. I would not have given up BMac + Sweeney for 1-year of Delgado at 13.5 million. That is a stupid deal.

 

And stop putting words in my mouth. You did the same thing during the playoffs and I made you look dumb then too. At least read what I say.

[False Alarm]

Yeah, I didn't catch that either.  $11 mil or so.  Mugh.

 

Still...Think of it this way...the marlins signed a guy for 1 year, paid him basically the salary worth 1 year, and they get 2 potentially very good and cheap players out of it.

 

That is still a heck of a way to build a ballclub.  We've done some of the same things - think about signing Loaiza and turning him into Contreras.  Overall, the Delgado signing is probably a masterstroke for the Marlins.

indians're doing something similar with millwood: one year, $7 million, now they offer him arbitration--which he'll decline in favor of a long-term contract elsewhere--and could get a first-round pick plus a sandwich pick outta it while millwood declines for some other team.

[SSH2005]

No. I was one of the biggest backers of the deal. And you are putting words into my mouth. I never said the deal was bad for Boston, I said Beckett was not an Ace IMO and Lowell sucks. Boston gives up a lot, but they get a good 2/3 pitcher, but one that could very easily get injured and wreck their rotation. It was a good deal for a team like Boston that doesn't need prospects and can just go out and get whoever they want. It would not have been a good deal for a lot of other teams.

 

That doesn't change my opinion on this Delgado deal either. I would not have given up BMac + Sweeney for 1-year of Delgado at 13.5 million. That is a stupid deal.

 

And stop putting words in my mouth. You did the same thing during the playoffs and I made you look dumb then too. At least read what I say.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Once again, I don't think you understand that prospects are unproven talent. Beckett, Lowell, and Delgado have all had good seasons in the majors. I agree that it would be hard for the White Sox to pay all of Delgado's contract but this is the Mets and Red Sox we're talking about. They have money up the wazoo. I doubt those two teams care about picking up Lowell's or Delgado's contracts.

 

And how did you make me look dumb? I think everyone already got a good chuckle about how you would rather have Scott Podsednik than Grady Sizemore. That's just borderline insanity.

[Balta1701]

Once again, I don't think you understand that prospects are unproven talent.  Beckett, Lowell, and Delgado have all had good seasons in the majors.  I agree that it would be hard for the White Sox to pay all of Delgado's contract but this is the Mets and Red Sox we're talking about.  They have money up the wazoo.  I doubt those two teams care about picking up Lowell's or Delgado's contracts.

 

And how did you make me look dumb?  I think everyone already got a good chuckle about how you would rather have Scott Podsednik than Grady Sizemore.  That's just borderline insanity.

But I think you're missing 1 key point about prospects...especially for a team not named the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, or Angels:

 

You can play moneyball with prospects.

 

The meaning is very simple here...yes, prospects are unproven talent. Yes, they are a gamble compared to a guy like Delgado. But you cannot underestimate the difference between a prospect, who would make $400,000 or so his first few years in the big leagues, and a proven vet, who would probably make 20-30 times that amount.

 

Yes, it's a gamble to trade away a big, proven guy like Delgado. But when you take that gamble and it pays off, you end up with a very good team. Cleveland is a prime example of this - they traded away guys like Colon, and wound up with a very good team right now with a payroll somewhere under $50 million I believe. The Marlins basically did the same thing - several key portions of their 2003 title team came in trades from their 1997 team's fire sale.

 

There's no sure thing in baseball. You can't buy a sure thing. There's no guarantee that Delgado won't spend another season on the DL, just like there's no guarantee that a prospect will turn into an ace pitcher.

[jphat007]

Once again, I don't think you understand that prospects are unproven talent.  Beckett, Lowell, and Delgado have all had good seasons in the majors.  I agree that it would be hard for the White Sox to pay all of Delgado's contract but this is the Mets and Red Sox we're talking about.  They have money up the wazoo.  I doubt those two teams care about picking up Lowell's or Delgado's contracts.

 

And how did you make me look dumb?  I think everyone already got a good chuckle about how you would rather have Scott Podsednik than Grady Sizemore.  That's just borderline insanity.

 

There you go again. Making stuff up. Putting words in my mouth. As I explained in October, I would take Sizemroe over Pods in almost every situation. That was NOT the discussion. The discussion was that I would take Pods over Sizemore if the only place they could hit was lead off. Pods does a better job getting on base when nobodies on, steals more bases (when he's healthy), and generally f***s with the pitchers mind. He has a good OBP, a good BA, and he does everything a leadoff man should do, better or just as good as Sizemore. A little better in my opinion. You continue to ignore this, and just say that I think that Pods is better when I have categorically said otherwise many times.

 

So please. Stop making s*** up. Stop putting words in my mouth. I'm sure I could get a chuckle out of everyone if I made up something that you said.

Edited November 23, 2005 by jphat007

[SSH2005]

But I think you're missing 1 key point about prospects...especially for a team not named the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, or Angels:

 

You can play moneyball with prospects.

 

The meaning is very simple here...yes, prospects are unproven talent.  Yes, they are a gamble compared to a guy like Delgado.  But you cannot underestimate the difference between a prospect, who would make $400,000 or so his first few years in the big leagues, and a proven vet, who would probably make 20-30 times that amount.

 

Yes, it's a gamble to trade away a big, proven guy like Delgado.  But when you take that gamble and it pays off, you end up with a very good team.  Cleveland is a prime example of this - they traded away guys like Colon, and wound up with a very good team right now with a payroll somewhere under $50 million I believe.  The Marlins basically did the same thing - several key portions of their 2003 title team came in trades from their 1997 team's fire sale.

 

There's no sure thing in baseball.  You can't buy a sure thing.  There's no guarantee that Delgado won't spend another season on the DL, just like there's no guarantee that a prospect will turn into an ace pitcher.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Except the Red Sox and Mets are trying to compete next season. The Marlins are dumping salary and hoping they can compete in 5 years. That's the big difference. Both the Red Sox and Mets think it's worth giving up prospects for proven talent so they can try to win a World Series next year.

[SSH2005]

There you go again. Making stuff up. Putting words in my mouth. As I explained in October, I would take Sizemroe over Pods in almost every situation. That was NOT the discussion. The discussion was that I would take Pods over Sizemore if the only place they could hit was lead off. Pods does a better job getting on base when nobodies on, steals more bases (when he's healthy), and generally f***s with the pitchers mind. He has a good OBP, a good BA, and he does everything a leadoff man should do, better or just as good as Sizemore. A little better in my opinion. You continue to ignore this, and just say that I think that Pods is better when I have categorically said otherwise many times.

 

So please. Stop making s*** up. Stop putting words in my mouth. I'm sure I could get a chuckle out of everyone if I made up something that you said.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sizemore would produce more runs than Podsednik no matter where he is in our lineup so what does anything else really matter?

Edited November 23, 2005 by SSH2005

[jphat007]

Except the Red Sox and Mets are trying to compete next season.  The Marlins are dumping salary and hoping they can compete in 5 years.  That's the big difference.  Both the Red Sox and Mets think it's worth giving up prospects for proven talent so they can try to win a World Series next year.

 

Jacobs + Petit + Salary for Delgado's whole deal = Good for the Mets

Bmac + Sweeney for 1 year of Delgado = Incredibly bad for the White Sox

 

Just because a trade is good for one team doesn't mean it would be a good trade for everyone. That's what I said for both Boston and NYM's deals. But you sit there and say "He thinks any trade not done by the White Sox is a horrible trade." Right, wtf are you talking about?

[Balta1701]

Except the Red Sox and Mets are trying to compete next season.  The Marlins are dumping salary and hoping they can compete in 5 years.  That's the big difference.  Both the Red Sox and Mets think it's worth giving up prospects for proven talent so they can try to win a World Series next year.

But the thing you're ignoring is the fact that very few teams have the money to compete every year. I would argue that the White Sox don't have that kind of money, I would argue that the Cubs don't have that kind of money...the Angels are borderline. The Mets, Yankees, and Red Sox are about the only teams that have the kind of money which allows them to compete every year, and even then, those 3 teams keep discovering that when they plug in a young guy (i.e. David Wright, Robinson Cano, Chien Ming Wang) the fact that the young guy has such a low salary gives them an enormous amount of flexibility.

 

Almost every single team that really wants to build a winner will have to go through a few down years where they're running with a youth movement. The only way to avoid it is to become a master at gradually plugging in younger pieces while subtracting a few of the older pieces through trades and FA - exactly what the Braves have done.

[fathom]

If the Mets sign Wagner also, this is a great deal for them. Closer has been a real weakness for them recently, and by adding one of the best in the game, getting a terrific offensive player like Delgado will only help. I also think losing Piazza will benefit the team in the long run.

[SSH2005]

Jacobs + Petit + Salary for Delgado's whole deal = Good for the Mets

Bmac + Sweeney for 1 year of Delgado = Incredibly bad for the White Sox

 

Just because a trade is good for one team doesn't mean it would be a good trade for everyone. That's what I said for both Boston and NYM's deals. But you sit there and say "He thinks any trade not done by the White Sox is a horrible trade." Right, wtf are you talking about?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, you didn't sound like you thought that this was a good trade for the Mets in this post:

 

Yah, 2 of the best prospects in the system for a 1-year rental, one that costs 12.5 million that the Mets will have to pay for him next year.

 

Forgive me if I wouldn't do that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[jphat007]

Sorry, you didn't sound like you thought that this was a good trade for the Mets in this post:

 

I was talking about us. The 1-year rental only applies to us, because as was stated in the post above that we were discussing, he doesn't want to come to Chicago. That was a the whole point from our point of view as an organziation. That and BMac should be close to untradable for anyone, and thats who they wanted.

[SSH2005]

I was talking about us. The 1-year rental only applies to us, because as was stated in the post above that we were discussing, he doesn't want to come to Chicago. That was a the whole point from our point of view as an organziation. That and BMac should be close to untradable for anyone, and thats who they wanted.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right now, I would think that McCarthy has more trade value than Petit. He has actually pitched in the majors and has been successful. He even looked dominant in a few starts against great offenses (Boston and Texas). That has to impress teams more than minor league stats.

[Balta1701]

Right now, I would think that McCarthy has more trade value than Petit.  He has actually pitched in the majors and has been successful.  He even looked dominant in a few starts against great offenses (Boston and Texas).  That has to impress teams more than minor league stats.

After seeing what Brandon did at the end of the year last year...you'd have to be offering me a guy named Pujols before I'd consider moving him.

[SSH2005]

After seeing what Brandon did at the end of the year last year...you'd have to be offering me a guy named Pujols before I'd consider moving him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Heh, let's not go that far. But yes, McCarthy's trade value must be huge right now after dominating at the end of the season.

[jphat007]

Right now, I would think that McCarthy has more trade value than Petit.  He has actually pitched in the majors and has been successful.  He even looked dominant in a few starts against great offenses (Boston and Texas).  That has to impress teams more than minor league stats.

 

Exactly. Which is why they asked for BMac, which is why that trade was laughable for us. He's a young, potentially dominant pitcher who could be an ACE for the next 5 or 6 years or however long we have control of him. You don't give that up for 1 year of Delgado. There are only a couple of players I would give up Bmac for and thats only in the right situation.

Edited November 23, 2005 by jphat007

[SSH2005]

Exactly. Which is why they asked for BMac, which is why that trade was laughable for us. He's a young, potentially dominant pitcher who could be an ACE for the next 5 or 6 years or however long we have control of him. You don't give that up for 1 year of Delgado. There are only a couple of players I would give up Bmac for and thats only in the right situation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree but saying that the Marlins would ask for McCarthy and only accept him in a trade for Delgado is all just conjecture.

Edited November 23, 2005 by SSH2005

[jphat007]

I agree but saying that the Marlins would ask for McCarthy and only accept him in a trade for Delgado is all just conjecture.

 

I read somewhere that they wanted Bmac in any sort of deal for Delgado.

 

I think they also said Bmac in any sort of deal for Pierre, which might be the funniest thing I've ever heard. They weren't a good match, because they wanted a good young starter in the mold of a Bmac or JG and we weren't going to give them up for 1 year of Delgado.